'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by Rhodes Closed » Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:05 pm

Might be off topic, but I found some interesting stats right now regarding Kirk Cousins:

1.) Kirk is now tied with Joe Kapp for 6th Winningest Vikings Quarterback (Kapp is 23-12-3 / Cousins is 23-18-1).

2.) Kirk Cousins has the 6th most passing yards of any Vikings Quarterback (10,669), and he only needs a 430-yard game to surpass Brad Johnson (11,098). Not only that, he is currently on pace to become the #2 All-Time leading passer in Vikings history if he stays until 2024.

3.) Cousins has the 4th most Touchdowns of any Vikings Quarterbacks. At his current pace, by 2024, he'll be the #2 spot by 29 touchdowns.

4.) Of the starting Quarterbacks for the Minnesota Vikings, Kirk Cousins has the best overall Quarterback Rating with 103.3. Sam Bradford has 101.1 (but I discredit him for his 1 year and 2 games change); The next closest comparable starting quarterback (not Bradford, Favre, or Keenum), is Randall Cunningham (94.2). Other QBRs for reference: Daunte Culpepper (91.5), Teddy Bridgewater (86.3), Warren Moon (82.8), Brad Johnson (82.5), and the greatest Vikings QB of all time Fran Tarkenton (80.1).

5.) Kirk Cousins is 10th All-Time in 4th Quarter Comebacks and 14th in Game Winning Touchdowns in Vikings history.

6.) Kirk Cousins is 2nd All-Time in Yards/Game (254). The man ahead of him is old-man Warren Moon (259). For comparison, Daunte Culpepper is 4th (248.9), Cunningham is 8th (210.4), Bridgewater is 9th (205.0)

7.) Kirk is 10th All-Time in Interceptions (27). The next man up, the great, incredible, wonderful, perfect Christian Ponder, has 36. Warren Moon (who played the same amount of time as Cousins), had 42. Joe Kapp had 47, Brad Johnson had 48, and Daunte Culpepper had 86.


The more I look at these stats the more I find myself oddly being content with Kirk Cousins.
Last edited by Rhodes Closed on Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by Cliff » Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:19 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:34 am
His cap hit is $21 million. Always use overthecap.com. It's by far the most accurate and up to date.
Thanks for the tip, I will.

Except that his cap hit is 14th highest in the league.
Is that over the length of his time with the Vikings or one season? Because when we're talking about building or hurting the roster it seems that we should look at his overall impact.
2022 is two years away. That's an eternity in the NFL.
I suppose ... his salary is guaranteed though so I can't imagine it'll get any smaller.
Let me ask you a few things.

What if Kirk's play over the past five weeks continues? What if the Vikings make the playoffs and win a game, with a defense that most thought had no chance for that success? Is there nothing that will convince you that Kirk Cousins is a franchise quarterback?
It would certainly be hard after one season. Case Keenum kept up a high level of play for a good chunk of 2017 and helped lead the team to the NFCC game and nobody thought he was a franchise QB at 30, for example. Kirk is the franchise QB whether I like it or not but at 32 with 2 season left on his contract he feels more like a stop gap right now.

Do they get into the playoffs does Kirk fall apart in that game? How does he do against remaining "winning" teams to that point? I'm looking at the Bucs and Saints.

One of his biggest knocks for me has been the "can't be teams with winning records" stat. Yeah, it's a team game but come on ... is he just bad luck I guess? This is yet another year where a Kirk Cousins led team is mostly only able to beat teams with a losing record. Of course the stat can't be completely examined until the season is over as far as "winning" or "losing" team goes but it's looking pretty locked right now. The only exception this season has been Green Bay. How many years in a row does this have to happen with Kirk before it's got at least a *little* to do with him?
In his two previous seasons here, Kirk Cousins has had a bad OC, a rookie OC, no OTAs or preseason with a third OC, and an offensive line that, until Ezra Cleveland's insertion at guard after the bye, has been among the worst in the league. Now he's on the same page with an OC who has a proven track record for success in this league. I see no reason his solid play can't continue.
If history is any indication it will continue until he runs into the next above average team.
Most people on this board have said over and over and over again — give Cousins some weapons and a decent O-line, and he can be really good. Well guess what? The past five games, he's had that, and only Patrick Mahomes has been better over that time. You say he's not Top 10, and you just assume that's correct. I do not agree with your assertion. No, he can't lift an otherwise mediocre franchise out of the basement, as Aaron Rodgers routinely does in Green Bay. But I believe he's top 10 under the right conditions, which he clearly has now. And if he's top 10, then his $31 million cap hit for 2021 are right in line with where he should be.
I don't assume it's correct for everybody. There is no "best QB" stat that definitely says which are best. It's highly subjective but in my mind he's not simply because there are 10 other QBs I'd rather have. Either because I think they're currently better or would be better if in Kirk's position.
Who is Pittsburgh's backup? Can you name the backup in Kansas City? Seattle? The Rams? Tennessee? The Saints have Taysom Hill, a guy who throws like a tight end and is 2-0 against two terrible teams, and the far more talented Jameis Winston, who they apparently don't trust. The reigning NFC champion 49ers have been trotting out Nick Mullens and C.J. Beathard. Baltimore has RGIII, and we see what that got them. Cleveland, not exactly solid at starting QB, has Case Keenum, whom nobody here wanted.
I'm not necessarily talking about always having some awesome backup on hand. Obviously that's not really possible but this team is seemingly constantly caught with their pants down at QB. Maybe that's why they've hung on so hard to Cousins.

I wanted Keenum, by the way. Maybe that tells you all you need to know about what I think lmao

Not because he was the "answer" exactly but the team worked with him. Some players are in a situation that works for them and Case seemed to be in that position. What I really wanted was keep Keenum, Teddy, and draft a rookie (would have been Lamar Jackson). I'll grant you that I live in Louisville KY and both Teddy and Lamar were terrific here and it influences my opinion.
Can't disagree with you here. But every team is in the same boat. There are a half dozen guys on every roster that monopolize the team's cap space. So every team needs cheap dudes who contribute more than their salaries might indicate.
That's fair but there are also teams where it matters more than others and the Vikings are one of those teams in my opinion.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:28 pm

CharVike wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:08 am
Cliff wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:06 pm


I think the team was also caught off guard by it going down the middle. I'm sure with zero time outs they expected a pass for the sidelines.

As far as skills, it all depends on which game you watch. Even this one where the Vikings won Teddy put his team in a position to win even though the Kicker couldn't get it through.

As far as Teddy Vs. Kirk and skill rankings, I used to think that too. That Cousins had more of the "raw materials" but was more of a headcase than Teddy. Now I'm not so sure. I think it's undeniable that Kirk has a better surrounding cast - especially receivers - and yet Teddy is beating Kirk in several different categories in 2020 such as completion %, QBR, and fewer INTs in more attempts.
Teddy had his chance and he didn't do much IMO. 14 of the teams points had nothing to do with Teddy. When Beebe handed him the game he couldn't get a TD. Then he set up his FG kicker with a 53 yard attempt. But it was an attempt. Our team played about as bad as a team could. Our best WR was out and our RB has hit a wall and can't do anything. We have no pass rush and rookies playing the CB spots. That's a game you need to take. It was handed to him. Was every bad play him? No. But the QB gets the good and bad overall. Just like Cousins is labeled a loser. He gets that because that Skin team couldn't do much. They still can't do much.
I agree in regards to Cousins in Washington. Cousins being on those Redskins teams makes me think of Deshaun Watson on his current Houston team. A solid QB with a bad roster surrounding him. Watson is struggling there this year and will continue to struggle if someone doesnt fix that roster after O'Brien destroyed it. Like some people drool over Matt Stafford and always refer to him as a "top QB in the NFL". What has made him a top QB? He's been a bigger loser than Cousins has. What do people say in his defense? Well he's been on a bad Lions team. Okay? Was Kirk not on a bad Washington team? Stafford has played for 12 years and has 0 playoffs wins. I just dont get why Stafford gets all this treatment but Cousins doesnt.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by CharVike » Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:10 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:28 pm
CharVike wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:08 am

Teddy had his chance and he didn't do much IMO. 14 of the teams points had nothing to do with Teddy. When Beebe handed him the game he couldn't get a TD. Then he set up his FG kicker with a 53 yard attempt. But it was an attempt. Our team played about as bad as a team could. Our best WR was out and our RB has hit a wall and can't do anything. We have no pass rush and rookies playing the CB spots. That's a game you need to take. It was handed to him. Was every bad play him? No. But the QB gets the good and bad overall. Just like Cousins is labeled a loser. He gets that because that Skin team couldn't do much. They still can't do much.
I agree in regards to Cousins in Washington. Cousins being on those Redskins teams makes me think of Deshaun Watson on his current Houston team. A solid QB with a bad roster surrounding him. Watson is struggling there this year and will continue to struggle if someone doesnt fix that roster after O'Brien destroyed it. Like some people drool over Matt Stafford and always refer to him as a "top QB in the NFL". What has made him a top QB? He's been a bigger loser than Cousins has. What do people say in his defense? Well he's been on a bad Lions team. Okay? Was Kirk not on a bad Washington team? Stafford has played for 12 years and has 0 playoffs wins. I just dont get why Stafford gets all this treatment but Cousins doesnt.
I'm glad you brought up that Watson kid. I didn't realize it but that kid is a top QB. He's the 2nd highest paid now at 40 mill. Good for him he deserves it. The media plays games in our world today. More so than ever. I guess it's shock value. They all want the click.. But that's their job now. Even if it means making stuff up.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:20 pm

Cliff wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:19 pm
It would certainly be hard after one season. Case Keenum kept up a high level of play for a good chunk of 2017 and helped lead the team to the NFCC game and nobody thought he was a franchise QB at 30, for example. Kirk is the franchise QB whether I like it or not but at 32 with 2 season left on his contract he feels more like a stop gap right now.

Do they get into the playoffs does Kirk fall apart in that game? How does he do against remaining "winning" teams to that point? I'm looking at the Bucs and Saints.

One of his biggest knocks for me has been the "can't be teams with winning records" stat. Yeah, it's a team game but come on ... is he just bad luck I guess? This is yet another year where a Kirk Cousins led team is mostly only able to beat teams with a losing record. Of course the stat can't be completely examined until the season is over as far as "winning" or "losing" team goes but it's looking pretty locked right now. The only exception this season has been Green Bay. How many years in a row does this have to happen with Kirk before it's got at least a *little* to do with him?
How about Seattle? The Vikings had 450 yards of total offense but couldn't get one yard when they needed it (or weren't smart enough to kick a field goal, depending on your perspective). Then they let Seattle drive 94 yards in 1:42 and one timeout. Did Kirk Cousins lose that game?

How about the Green Bay game in September of 2018? Cousins threw for 425 yards and 4 TDs, led the team to the game-tying TD in the last minute, then drove them into field goal range twice in overtime. Thank you, Daniel Carlson.

How about the LA game 11 days later? Cousins throws for 422 and 3 scores, but the Vikings' vaunted defense takes a dump.

How about the playoff game in the Superdome last year?

How about the Tennesee game this year, when the Vikings led by 5 with less than 4 minutes to go but lost the game?

Look, I get it. He's had some stinkers against good teams. He's also had some brilliant games that the Vikings have lost through no fault of his. This isn't a Kyle Orton situation, where his team somehow wins in spite of his crappy play. Many of Cousins' prime-time, Monday night and quality-opponent losses have come when he played his a$$ off.
Cliff wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:19 pm
If history is any indication it will continue until he runs into the next above average team.
Kind of like he fell apart against New Orleans last year? :whistle:
Cliff wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:19 pm
I don't assume it's correct for everybody. There is no "best QB" stat that definitely says which are best. It's highly subjective but in my mind he's not simply because there are 10 other QBs I'd rather have. Either because I think they're currently better or would be better if in Kirk's position.
Well, you're right about one thing. You've made this HIGHLY subjective. I mean, "would be better in Kirk's position?" They're not in Kirk's position, so how can you possibly even speculate that? ESPN ranks Ryan Tannehill is ranked above Cousins by 12 places. Are you really going to tell me that Ryan Tannehill would definitely play better than Kirk Cousins if he were in Minnesota? (And by the way, Ryan Tannehill makes more than Kirk Cousins this year.)
Cliff wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:19 pm
I'm not necessarily talking about always having some awesome backup on hand. Obviously that's not really possible but this team is seemingly constantly caught with their pants down at QB. Maybe that's why they've hung on so hard to Cousins.
They've hung on to Cousins because they believe he's improved ever year he's been here, thus earned the extension.
Cliff wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:19 pm
I wanted Keenum, by the way. Maybe that tells you all you need to know about what I think lmao

Not because he was the "answer" exactly but the team worked with him. Some players are in a situation that works for them and Case seemed to be in that position. What I really wanted was keep Keenum, Teddy, and draft a rookie (would have been Lamar Jackson). I'll grant you that I live in Louisville KY and both Teddy and Lamar were terrific here and it influences my opinion.
And for the record, I wanted Keenum, too. I've been a rabid fan since 1969, and 2017 may have been my favorite season because nobody expected 13-3 out of a team with Case Keenum at quarterback. It was so much fun! And quite honestly, he'd be the perfect backup here in Minnesota right now.
Cliff wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:19 pm
That's fair but there are also teams where it matters more than others and the Vikings are one of those teams in my opinion.
But wouldn't you agree that other contracts play into this hole just as much as Cousins? As I mentioned before, we're using $22 million in cap space on our safeties, $9 million on Kyle Rudolph, and another $22 million on two guys who haven't played a down in Hunter and Barr.

Have the Vikings been short-sighted in managing the cap? I think an argument can be made there. But on Cousins? I don't think so. I'm sorry, I like Anthony Harris ... but using the Franchise Tag on a safety whose had one season as a full-time starter? Things like that make me a lot more crazy than signing Kirk Cousins to an extension. Your mileage may vary.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by Cliff » Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:51 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:20 pm
How about Seattle? The Vikings had 450 yards of total offense but couldn't get one yard when they needed it (or weren't smart enough to kick a field goal, depending on your perspective). Then they let Seattle drive 94 yards in 1:42 and one timeout. Did Kirk Cousins lose that game?

How about the Green Bay game in September of 2018? Cousins threw for 425 yards and 4 TDs, led the team to the game-tying TD in the last minute, then drove them into field goal range twice in overtime. Thank you, Daniel Carlson.

How about the LA game 11 days later? Cousins throws for 422 and 3 scores, but the Vikings' vaunted defense takes a dump.

How about the playoff game in the Superdome last year?

How about the Tennesee game this year, when the Vikings led by 5 with less than 4 minutes to go but lost the game?

Look, I get it. He's had some stinkers against good teams. He's also had some brilliant games that the Vikings have lost through no fault of his. This isn't a Kyle Orton situation, where his team somehow wins in spite of his crappy play. Many of Cousins' prime-time, Monday night and quality-opponent losses have come when he played his a$$ off.
Cliff wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:19 pm
If history is any indication it will continue until he runs into the next above average team.
Kind of like he fell apart against New Orleans last year? :whistle:
My argument isn't that Cousins is always terrible against that kind of competition or that he's even terrible. He's just not good enough to push a team that is in the Vikings current state into "good" territory. Hell, he couldn't push the 2018 team over the hump that was nearly identical to the NFCC 2017 team.

If he's not "the guy" that can get them there then what's the point of paying him that much regardless of if you think he's a top 10 QB or not?
Well, you're right about one thing. You've made this HIGHLY subjective. I mean, "would be better in Kirk's position?" They're not in Kirk's position, so how can you possibly even speculate that? ESPN ranks Ryan Tannehill is ranked above Cousins by 12 places. Are you really going to tell me that Ryan Tannehill would definitely play better than Kirk Cousins if he were in Minnesota? (And by the way, Ryan Tannehill makes more than Kirk Cousins this year.)
Ryan Tannehill's team is 8-3 and he's playing really well so it doesn't surprise me at all that he's ranked higher than Kirk Cousins this season. My speculation is based on the fact that most teams don't have the quality weapons Kirk has at WR and RB. I don't know if he'd play better or not, that's true. That said, it's not difficult to believe that a QB's play would be elevated by having two terrific receivers and arguably the best RB in the league right now.
And for the record, I wanted Keenum, too. I've been a rabid fan since 1969, and 2017 may have been my favorite season because nobody expected 13-3 out of a team with Case Keenum at quarterback. It was so much fun! And quite honestly, he'd be the perfect backup here in Minnesota right now.
It was a fun season, wasn't it? I'd welcome him as a backup for sure.

Speaking of Case in 2017 his QBR was 2nd in the league. Cousins was 15th despite beating out Keenum in several "conventional" areas. He was doing things that season that Kirk is incapable of doing regularly. Namely keeping a cool head and buying extra time behind what was still a weak offensive line. Things that don't necessarily show up on "normal" passing stats. Things that Kirk couldn't replicate in 2018 despite the offense having mostly the same players, strengths, and weaknesses. They lost their OC and that hurt, sure. DeFilippo's biggest problem was that he leaned too heavily on Kirk and the passing game despite Kirk routinely crumbling under pressure from a (still) leaky offensive line. The same leaky line Keenum had to deal with. That doesn't exactly help his case though, does it?

Kirk's stats have never really translated into success for the team he's on. Most of his success comes when teams aren't actively going after him. Prevent situations when a game is out of reach or a team is dumb enough to play him that way ala Panthers. Or play action passes that are clean and leave him by himself. He's a top 5 QB for sure when in those situations. That's not how the NFL works though. Not most of the time.
But wouldn't you agree that other contracts play into this hole just as much as Cousins? As I mentioned before, we're using $22 million in cap space on our safeties, $9 million on Kyle Rudolph, and another $22 million on two guys who haven't played a down in Hunter and Barr.

Have the Vikings been short-sighted in managing the cap? I think an argument can be made there. But on Cousins? I don't think so. I'm sorry, I like Anthony Harris ... but using the Franchise Tag on a safety whose had one season as a full-time starter? Things like that make me a lot more crazy than signing Kirk Cousins to an extension. Your mileage may vary.
I don't disagree that the Vikings have mismanaged the cap in other areas as well and that contributes. Though I'm mixed on Rudolph. He's tied for 2nd in TDs among tight ends and is 15th in yards. He's tied for 6th highest paid TE but the difference in salary between the 6th highest paid TE and the 17th highest paid TE in the league is 3 million a year. Not nothing but the differences in pay aren't as dramatic as at QB.

I also agree that Cousin's contract isn't ridiculous considering his skillset and comparable QB salaries in the league. It doesn't make sense for the Vikings though. Or at least I don't think so. He's got this season and 2 more to prove me wrong so we'll see.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:55 pm

Cliff wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:51 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:20 pm
How about Seattle? The Vikings had 450 yards of total offense but couldn't get one yard when they needed it (or weren't smart enough to kick a field goal, depending on your perspective). Then they let Seattle drive 94 yards in 1:42 and one timeout. Did Kirk Cousins lose that game?

How about the Green Bay game in September of 2018? Cousins threw for 425 yards and 4 TDs, led the team to the game-tying TD in the last minute, then drove them into field goal range twice in overtime. Thank you, Daniel Carlson.

How about the LA game 11 days later? Cousins throws for 422 and 3 scores, but the Vikings' vaunted defense takes a dump.

How about the playoff game in the Superdome last year?

How about the Tennesee game this year, when the Vikings led by 5 with less than 4 minutes to go but lost the game?

Look, I get it. He's had some stinkers against good teams. He's also had some brilliant games that the Vikings have lost through no fault of his. This isn't a Kyle Orton situation, where his team somehow wins in spite of his crappy play. Many of Cousins' prime-time, Monday night and quality-opponent losses have come when he played his a$$ off.


Kind of like he fell apart against New Orleans last year? :whistle:
My argument isn't that Cousins is always terrible against that kind of competition or that he's even terrible. He's just not good enough to push a team that is in the Vikings current state into "good" territory. Hell, he couldn't push the 2018 team over the hump that was nearly identical to the NFCC 2017 team.

If he's not "the guy" that can get them there then what's the point of paying him that much regardless of if you think he's a top 10 QB or not?
Well, you're right about one thing. You've made this HIGHLY subjective. I mean, "would be better in Kirk's position?" They're not in Kirk's position, so how can you possibly even speculate that? ESPN ranks Ryan Tannehill is ranked above Cousins by 12 places. Are you really going to tell me that Ryan Tannehill would definitely play better than Kirk Cousins if he were in Minnesota? (And by the way, Ryan Tannehill makes more than Kirk Cousins this year.)
Ryan Tannehill's team is 8-3 and he's playing really well so it doesn't surprise me at all that he's ranked higher than Kirk Cousins this season. My speculation is based on the fact that most teams don't have the quality weapons Kirk has at WR and RB. I don't know if he'd play better or not, that's true. That said, it's not difficult to believe that a QB's play would be elevated by having two terrific receivers and arguably the best RB in the league right now.
And for the record, I wanted Keenum, too. I've been a rabid fan since 1969, and 2017 may have been my favorite season because nobody expected 13-3 out of a team with Case Keenum at quarterback. It was so much fun! And quite honestly, he'd be the perfect backup here in Minnesota right now.
It was a fun season, wasn't it? I'd welcome him as a backup for sure.

Speaking of Case in 2017 his QBR was 2nd in the league. Cousins was 15th despite beating out Keenum in several "conventional" areas. He was doing things that season that Kirk is incapable of doing regularly. Namely keeping a cool head and buying extra time behind what was still a weak offensive line. Things that don't necessarily show up on "normal" passing stats. Things that Kirk couldn't replicate in 2018 despite the offense having mostly the same players, strengths, and weaknesses. They lost their OC and that hurt, sure. DeFilippo's biggest problem was that he leaned too heavily on Kirk and the passing game despite Kirk routinely crumbling under pressure from a (still) leaky offensive line. The same leaky line Keenum had to deal with. That doesn't exactly help his case though, does it?

Kirk's stats have never really translated into success for the team he's on. Most of his success comes when teams aren't actively going after him. Prevent situations when a game is out of reach or a team is dumb enough to play him that way ala Panthers. Or play action passes that are clean and leave him by himself. He's a top 5 QB for sure when in those situations. That's not how the NFL works though. Not most of the time.
But wouldn't you agree that other contracts play into this hole just as much as Cousins? As I mentioned before, we're using $22 million in cap space on our safeties, $9 million on Kyle Rudolph, and another $22 million on two guys who haven't played a down in Hunter and Barr.

Have the Vikings been short-sighted in managing the cap? I think an argument can be made there. But on Cousins? I don't think so. I'm sorry, I like Anthony Harris ... but using the Franchise Tag on a safety whose had one season as a full-time starter? Things like that make me a lot more crazy than signing Kirk Cousins to an extension. Your mileage may vary.
I don't disagree that the Vikings have mismanaged the cap in other areas as well and that contributes. Though I'm mixed on Rudolph. He's tied for 2nd in TDs among tight ends and is 15th in yards. He's tied for 6th highest paid TE but the difference in salary between the 6th highest paid TE and the 17th highest paid TE in the league is 3 million a year. Not nothing but the differences in pay aren't as dramatic as at QB.

I also agree that Cousin's contract isn't ridiculous considering his skillset and comparable QB salaries in the league. It doesn't make sense for the Vikings though. Or at least I don't think so. He's got this season and 2 more to prove me wrong so we'll see.
Good conversation, Cliff. I appreciate it when two Vikings fans can make impassioned arguments, yet stay civil and realize we're all on the same side!
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by Cliff » Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:26 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:55 pm
Good conversation, Cliff. I appreciate it when two Vikings fans can make impassioned arguments, yet stay civil and realize we're all on the same side!
You too! I haven't had a lot of time to participate here so it was nice to have a good conversation while I could.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by S197 » Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:00 pm

The reason Cousins cap hit is low this year is because they freed up cap space by extending him. Basically you can take the signing bonus portion of the contract and pro rate it over the duration of the contract. You're kicking the can down the road but you will be paying the piper eventually. This is why he has a $31M and $45M cap hit in 2021 and 2022, respectively. Essentially even if Cousins is on another team next year, the Vikings are on the hook for $41M in dead cap over the next two years. I don't know that it's fair to contemplate his cap this year when there's a huge overhang like that which the Vikings cannot get out from under. It's very similar to the situation in NO where they will likely be paying Brees long after he's gone.

I took a deeper dive into the stats. Here's where Cousins ranks in the league:

Passing yards: 15th
Passing TD's: 9th
Passer Rating: 8th
Interceptions: 31st (tied)
Completion %: 12th
QBR: 17th

This is Tannehill for comparison since he's being brought up:

Passing yards: 18th
Passing TD's: 8th
Passer Rating: 6th
Interceptions: 2nd
Completion %: 22nd
QBR: 5th

Tannehill also leads the league with 5 game-winning drives, which I think is also pretty significant.

I don't like to get overly wrapped up in stats because there's a lot of nuance that goes behind them. But I think over an extended period it provides some dimension. Cousins trajectory is improving but is that because it's a softer part of the schedule or is it actual improvement? We'll need to wait and see. I personally don't think he's lived up to the cost the Vikings are paying and that price gets exponentially steeper. In any case, we're all along for the ride because he isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by Frozen Rope » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:42 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:28 pm
CharVike wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:08 am

Teddy had his chance and he didn't do much IMO. 14 of the teams points had nothing to do with Teddy. When Beebe handed him the game he couldn't get a TD. Then he set up his FG kicker with a 53 yard attempt. But it was an attempt. Our team played about as bad as a team could. Our best WR was out and our RB has hit a wall and can't do anything. We have no pass rush and rookies playing the CB spots. That's a game you need to take. It was handed to him. Was every bad play him? No. But the QB gets the good and bad overall. Just like Cousins is labeled a loser. He gets that because that Skin team couldn't do much. They still can't do much.
I agree in regards to Cousins in Washington. Cousins being on those Redskins teams makes me think of Deshaun Watson on his current Houston team. A solid QB with a bad roster surrounding him. Watson is struggling there this year and will continue to struggle if someone doesnt fix that roster after O'Brien destroyed it. Like some people drool over Matt Stafford and always refer to him as a "top QB in the NFL". What has made him a top QB? He's been a bigger loser than Cousins has. What do people say in his defense? Well he's been on a bad Lions team. Okay? Was Kirk not on a bad Washington team? Stafford has played for 12 years and has 0 playoffs wins. I just dont get why Stafford gets all this treatment but Cousins doesnt.
PHP, that’s the narrative that the commentators have chosen and that gives them their talking points. They love having Cousins as their whipping boy. At Washington (I was either at every game or watched every game) he had no, and I mean no, running game, which forced him into being a passing QB. Such was the reason he was passing for 4000-4500 yds a season. Such was the reason Deshaun Jackson, Pierre Garçon and Jordan Reed were signed to mega contracts after the best years of their career. Speaking of which, Jordan Reed was special. He had a crossover basketball move (he was a great basketball player) that no one could defend. But he had multiple concussions and never was the same.
But I digress. Last time I looked, PFF graded the Vikings 28th defending against the pass rush. That might have changed since Cleveland started. But the offensive line has shown improvement, and as Kapp mentioned in one of the other threads, Cousins will carve you up if he has time. One of the reasons Bilichek had such great success over the years was they recognized that Brady in the pocket was a statue. They built an offensive line around his weakness. You build that kind of offensive line for Cousins and you don’t have to be mobile QB.
Having said that, I think he has shown more pocket awareness and confidence in his offensive line this year as time has gone on. He’s NFC player of the week and has a good shot at being NFC player of the month. Short story long, if the running game can keep the opponents honest and you build a quality offensive line (which is in progress) I like our outlook. I really liked Kapp’s post on the ESPN QB ratings. Nick Olsen has a great article on Cousins this week. If only I knew how to bring it over.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:27 am

Cousins comes back against a team we should have never been losing to in the first place and he is our guy now and all the narratives about him beating winning teams are gone?

We needed two missed FGs to beat the Panthers at home and only had 13 more yards of offense than a team with a bad run game and a QB having the worst game of his season.

The Vikings are still a bad team with no 2nd round pick next year and no cap space to get better. That hasn't changed because we beat Carolina.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:50 am

S197 wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:00 pm
The reason Cousins cap hit is low this year is because they freed up cap space by extending him. Basically you can take the signing bonus portion of the contract and pro rate it over the duration of the contract. You're kicking the can down the road but you will be paying the piper eventually. This is why he has a $31M and $45M cap hit in 2021 and 2022, respectively. Essentially even if Cousins is on another team next year, the Vikings are on the hook for $41M in dead cap over the next two years. I don't know that it's fair to contemplate his cap this year when there's a huge overhang like that which the Vikings cannot get out from under. It's very similar to the situation in NO where they will likely be paying Brees long after he's gone.

I took a deeper dive into the stats. Here's where Cousins ranks in the league:

Passing yards: 15th
Passing TD's: 9th
Passer Rating: 8th
Interceptions: 31st (tied)
Completion %: 12th
QBR: 17th

This is Tannehill for comparison since he's being brought up:

Passing yards: 18th
Passing TD's: 8th
Passer Rating: 6th
Interceptions: 2nd
Completion %: 22nd
QBR: 5th

Tannehill also leads the league with 5 game-winning drives, which I think is also pretty significant.

I don't like to get overly wrapped up in stats because there's a lot of nuance that goes behind them. But I think over an extended period it provides some dimension. Cousins trajectory is improving but is that because it's a softer part of the schedule or is it actual improvement? We'll need to wait and see. I personally don't think he's lived up to the cost the Vikings are paying and that price gets exponentially steeper. In any case, we're all along for the ride because he isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
I have to disagree with the cap assessment.

It's completely fair to contemplate his cap hit for this year because we're IN this year. Next year and 2022 aren't here yet. There are a ton of factors we don't know yet. For example, we don't know what the league-wide cap situation will bring. We also don't know what other veterans the Vikings will decide to keep or cut.

So let's look at next year, keeping in mind that we're speculating here. Cousins' $31 million cap hit will rank 9th in the NFL unless somebody signs for more. Say what you want, but from a comparative standpoint, that's not overpaying for a QB who hits 70% of his passes and leads the league in YPA.

And for the record, Tannehill does not have 5 game-winning drives. He has 3. He also has two fourth-quarter comebacks, which are part of those game-winning drives. Cousins has 2 and 1, so the difference isn't astronomical. Beyond that, they're similar players. Both have incredible running backs behind them, and both rely on those running backs to provide not only a lot of offense, but the threat of a lot of offense. Their stats are similar except that Cousins' completion percentage and YPA are higher. On the other hand, so is his INT percentage, and he has to own that.

Why the improvement? PHP and I have been beating the drum. His name is Ezra Cleveland. We've all said that if you give Cousins some time, he will thrive. If you turn him into Patrick Mahomes and force him to scramble, he's going to flounder. Go back to the Green Bay game, when Cleveland was inserted at right guard. Since that time, he's been sacked exactly half as often as he was in the first six games. We're giving him time to throw. That includes the game against the Bears, who rush the passer really well. As a result, Kirk is lighting it up at a 124 passer rating with only 1 INT on a bobble by Thielen. Since Cleveland's insertion, our O-line has actually become a strength. When was the last time we said that in Minnesota? And guess what? When Cleveland has been out with injury, we haven't been as good.

Bottom line, if Cousins plays the rest of the season like he has the past 5 games (big IF, I realize) then how on earth is he not worth the $31 million next year? Let's remove our personal biases against the guy and look at what he does. Again, we've all said, "Give him an O-line. Give him weapons." Well, he has those now. No excuses. Let's see how he does going forward. Early returns are promising.

That leaves the massive $45 million cap hit in 2022, which is projected to be the highest in the league (even higher than Patrick Mahomes' 2022 salary, and he signed the richest contract in league history). That's something the Vikings will have to deal with. But again, there are factors we simply can't see right now. For example, if the NFL rebounds and the cap jumps to, say, $210 million or $220 million, then it becomes more do-able. If it drops to $175 million next year and doesn't rebound, then we've got a problem.

Yes, a good organization projects its long-term financial future. But it's only a projection. My wife is CFO of a large company. She does projections all the time, and she's very good at it. But she will also tell you that for every major factor to the bottom line, there are dozens of other contributing factors that can move the needle either way. Some of those factors are impossible to predict, so you plan for best- and worst-case scenarios. I guarantee you, Rob Brzezinski has already done that, and he'll re-do it many times before 2022 arrives.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:02 pm

Frozen Rope wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:42 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:28 pm


I agree in regards to Cousins in Washington. Cousins being on those Redskins teams makes me think of Deshaun Watson on his current Houston team. A solid QB with a bad roster surrounding him. Watson is struggling there this year and will continue to struggle if someone doesnt fix that roster after O'Brien destroyed it. Like some people drool over Matt Stafford and always refer to him as a "top QB in the NFL". What has made him a top QB? He's been a bigger loser than Cousins has. What do people say in his defense? Well he's been on a bad Lions team. Okay? Was Kirk not on a bad Washington team? Stafford has played for 12 years and has 0 playoffs wins. I just dont get why Stafford gets all this treatment but Cousins doesnt.
PHP, that’s the narrative that the commentators have chosen and that gives them their talking points. They love having Cousins as their whipping boy. At Washington (I was either at every game or watched every game) he had no, and I mean no, running game, which forced him into being a passing QB. Such was the reason he was passing for 4000-4500 yds a season. Such was the reason Deshaun Jackson, Pierre Garçon and Jordan Reed were signed to mega contracts after the best years of their career. Speaking of which, Jordan Reed was special. He had a crossover basketball move (he was a great basketball player) that no one could defend. But he had multiple concussions and never was the same.
But I digress. Last time I looked, PFF graded the Vikings 28th defending against the pass rush. That might have changed since Cleveland started. But the offensive line has shown improvement, and as Kapp mentioned in one of the other threads, Cousins will carve you up if he has time. One of the reasons Bilichek had such great success over the years was they recognized that Brady in the pocket was a statue. They built an offensive line around his weakness. You build that kind of offensive line for Cousins and you don’t have to be mobile QB.
Having said that, I think he has shown more pocket awareness and confidence in his offensive line this year as time has gone on. He’s NFC player of the week and has a good shot at being NFC player of the month. Short story long, if the running game can keep the opponents honest and you build a quality offensive line (which is in progress) I like our outlook. I really liked Kapp’s post on the ESPN QB ratings. Nick Olsen has a great article on Cousins this week. If only I knew how to bring it over.
Very good points. I'll check on that article too.

In regards to Cousins in Washington, yes I've mentioned that before as well that his running game was terrible so he was forced to throw a million times a game.

This is where I also think DeFillipo and his clueless ways came in to play in 2018. Cousins was coming from a bad Washington team and all anyone ever saw Cousins do was throw since he never had a run game. How Flip didnt recognize that he had Dalvin Cook and Latavius Murray in the backfield is beyond me. All he saw was Cousins and two stud WRs and all he did was pass the ball that year. You need to be able to run the ball in this league and control time of possession. This is why I've said it before and I'll say it again, Flip was the #1 problem with the 2018 team. It wasnt Cousins, wasnt Zimmer, wasnt lack of talent, wasnt the OL (even though they werent good), wasnt the defense falling off a bit from 2017, it was Flip. They went from an excellent balanced coordinator in Shurmur to a downright horrible one in Flip that refused to run the ball. That has a drastic effect on any team.

As for this year, Cousins really went from "0-60" real fast. In the beginning of the year I mentioned he looked like a shell of himself, seemed to be force feeding Cleveland, was dealing with a swinging door at RG, etc. However, NOW he's looking like a top QB in the NFL and this is where I think praise for Spielman comes into play. What has been the biggest offensive change during the 1-5 to 4-1 turnaround?? The emergence of Justin Jefferson and the plugging in of Ezra Cleveland. These two have really started to make this offense go. Cousins now has plenty of chemistry developed with Jefferson and isnt forced to throw to his only other viable receiver in Theilen and Cleveland has been excellent in both the run and pass game.

But what is crazy to me is when you see Cousins drop back, we actually see a CLEAN pocket more often than we were early on in the year. And when it hasnt been clean, Cousins have moved around quite well. I think Bradbury has drastically improved in pass blocking since 2019, Cleveland has been 50x better than Samia, O'Neill is always solid, Reiff (who I was a big hater of) is having his best year in a while and Dozier isnt very good BUT tolerable. But I feel like that has always been the biggest difference between Dozier and Samia. Dozier isnt good but he's tolerable. He's going to give up some pressures but isnt a revolving door. Samia on the other hand, was not tolerable, was a revolving door and flat out didnt belong on the field at any point. Not only does this show how much better Cleveland is but it also shows just how bad Samia is. To the point where your entire OL looks better by just simply removing one player from it.

I agree I like our outlook as well. This defense has really improved since early on as well and we are missing 3 key players on this defense. Not sure if we can make a run in the playoffs this year, but I feel like next year we're going to be a force to reckon with. This year seems like more of a "learning year" for all these young players. But never say never, we did beat the Packers on the road.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:37 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:27 am
Cousins comes back against a team we should have never been losing to in the first place and he is our guy now and all the narratives about him beating winning teams are gone?

We needed two missed FGs to beat the Panthers at home and only had 13 more yards of offense than a team with a bad run game and a QB having the worst game of his season.

The Vikings are still a bad team with no 2nd round pick next year and no cap space to get better. That hasn't changed because we beat Carolina.
lol I was waiting for someone to come in and take a crap on everyone's parade. First of all, "bad teams" dont float at .500 and possibly get into the playoffs after a 1-5 start. Bad teams are teams like the Jets that are in the hole and never come close to coming out of it. As for the Vikings not having a second round pick....ok? But they have an extra 3rd instead of a 2nd. Not really the end of the world. We'll determine cap space when next offseason hits.

As for the Panthers game, we all know....shi* happens at times. Sure enough in that panthers game, shi* hit the fan for the Vikings in the beginning of the 2nd half. Instead of pis*ing in everyone's cheerios and saying they should've never been there in the first place, maybe try recognizing the resiliency they showed to get back into the game and win it. You act like Carolina is some pushover team that doesnt belong in the league. Not saying they are a good team but they certainly have some pieces to work with. We all know you tried to make the excuse for Teddy before the season even started that he was going to a "'bad team with a bad defense". Well by the looks of it, Teddy looked like he was the one that wasnt holding up his end of the bargain against the Vikings. He had the weapons at WR, had the pass blocking in front of him, has a RB that's averaging 4 yards a carry on the ground and had a defense that made plays and gave him a commanding lead. Yet he couldnt get it done. Hmmm

No less someone could sit here and say the same thing you are but from the opposite side of the spectrum. Well the Vikings lost 3 games by a combined 5 points, they were 1 point away from beating Seattle (a playoff team), they were 1 point away from beating Tennessee (a playoff team) and they beat the Packers on the road (a playoff team). Granted 1 point losses arent wins by any means but if you put Seattle or Tennessee in front of the Vikings RIGHT NOW, I'd have to say I'd take the Vikings to win. And no, not because I'm a fan. I thought they were guaranteed losers against the Titans and Seahawks first time around. But I think the Vikings are simply playing that much better right now.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:29 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:37 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:27 am
Cousins comes back against a team we should have never been losing to in the first place and he is our guy now and all the narratives about him beating winning teams are gone?

We needed two missed FGs to beat the Panthers at home and only had 13 more yards of offense than a team with a bad run game and a QB having the worst game of his season.

The Vikings are still a bad team with no 2nd round pick next year and no cap space to get better. That hasn't changed because we beat Carolina.
lol I was waiting for someone to come in and take a crap on everyone's parade. First of all, "bad teams" dont float at .500 and possibly get into the playoffs after a 1-5 start. Bad teams are teams like the Jets that are in the hole and never come close to coming out of it. As for the Vikings not having a second round pick....ok? But they have an extra 3rd instead of a 2nd. Not really the end of the world. We'll determine cap space when next offseason hits.

As for the Panthers game, we all know....shi* happens at times. Sure enough in that panthers game, shi* hit the fan for the Vikings in the beginning of the 2nd half. Instead of pis*ing in everyone's cheerios and saying they should've never been there in the first place, maybe try recognizing the resiliency they showed to get back into the game and win it. You act like Carolina is some pushover team that doesnt belong in the league. Not saying they are a good team but they certainly have some pieces to work with. We all know you tried to make the excuse for Teddy before the season even started that he was going to a "'bad team with a bad defense". Well by the looks of it, Teddy looked like he was the one that wasnt holding up his end of the bargain against the Vikings. He had the weapons at WR, had the pass blocking in front of him, has a RB that's averaging 4 yards a carry on the ground and had a defense that made plays and gave him a commanding lead. Yet he couldnt get it done. Hmmm

No less someone could sit here and say the same thing you are but from the opposite side of the spectrum. Well the Vikings lost 3 games by a combined 5 points, they were 1 point away from beating Seattle (a playoff team), they were 1 point away from beating Tennessee (a playoff team) and they beat the Packers on the road (a playoff team). Granted 1 point losses arent wins by any means but if you put Seattle or Tennessee in front of the Vikings RIGHT NOW, I'd have to say I'd take the Vikings to win. And no, not because I'm a fan. I thought they were guaranteed losers against the Titans and Seahawks first time around. But I think the Vikings are simply playing that much better right now.
Sorry, but while this positivity might feel good to some Vikings fans, all it does is enable more mediocrity from the team. Fanbases who don't hold their front offices accountable for getting them a championship and who are happy with wins against bad teams and going .500 because the team "showed improvement, will end up with a bunch of .500 seasons where the team showed improvement and 0 rings.

If the fanbase is happy with progress instead of actual results, the Wilfs will be too.
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