'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by CharVike » Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:36 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:22 pm
CharVike wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:51 pm
Good read Kapp. I see you toned done that writer in you a little bit.
I think it's age, man. As I get closer to retirement, I'm finding out that I can share my views with out pissing everybody off. It's the old "just because you can doesn't mean you should."
CharVike wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:51 pm
I'm a firm believer in pressure. If a D can bring big time heat all QBs take a step back. Even the great Rodgers struggles under heat. Generating it is the problem.
Hasn't that been OUR problem all season? Pundits have been hard on our young corners, but given the lack of pressure we've been able to generate, I think they've held up remarkably well. Not that long ago, I was sitting in U.S. Bank Stadium watching the Vikings sack Matthew Stafford 10 times. I was pretty close to the field in the end zone, and the last one was right in front of me ... you could see it in Stafford's face that he'd pretty much given up. This year, we have 19 sacks in 11 games. And I don't have access to PFF stats, but our pressure rate has to be near the bottom of the league.

So when Carolina rushed three and played 8 in coverage on that last drive, it played right into what Cousins does best, which is to survey the field, go through his progressions, and deliver an accurate throw.
CharVike wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:51 pm
It's hard to win a game giving away two defensive TDs back to back. But our team didn't give up and played hard when I almost expected them to fold up tent. Great lesson for our young guys. And the coaching staff deserves credit also. Some will say this win is like putting lipstick on a pile of #### but I give them credit.
Couldn't agree more.

Takes me back to that article in the other thread "A must read piece, by Tyler Dunne." If things are as bad with the coaching staff as Dunne implies, then there is no way the Vikings would have won that game after the back-to-back defensive TDs by the Panthers. Not a chance. They would have imploded. But listen to the interviews given by Cousins, Kendricks, Jefferson, et. al. after the game. They all said there was no panic, no finger pointing. Just a sense that they had to get to work. I don't know how any reasonable person couldn't give the coaching staff some credit.
CharVike wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:51 pm
One thing that got under my skin was the floating duck Teddy threw over the middle on their last drive. Where were are two high cost safeties? That ball needed to be batted down at a minimum. IMO those two need to be shoved out the door the minute the season ends. Tell them to pack your stuff and get out. I'd be looking at practice squads right now for some bodies. Nothing to lose at this point. This type of play has been going on all year. That should give 20 mill or so in CAP relief. Sorry for the negative but I'm tired of the crap safety play show.
Don't know if I agree about Smith, but Harris ... he's not the same player he was last year. But you're right about that pass by Bridgewater. That was a terrible throw that should have been defended or picked. Second time this year that we've given up that kind of pass, with the prayer to D.K. Metcalf on fourth down in Seattle being the other one.

I'd certainly be fine with moving on from Harris after the season. Smith, I'm not sure about. At some point his age is going to catch up with him. At times, he plays like the Smith of old. I'd be less inclined to give up on him, but if the Vikings do, I won't lose any sleep.
I'm in the same boat as you. You made a post one time about age and time is running out and just winning a playoff game, which is great, don't cut it at this point. I'm a fortunate 60 as far as my physical heath but the mind ...... I might be mean or seemed confused at times but I would like a Super Bowl at some point. The days of dominance is mostly over with the CAP but we seem to make the tournament every other year and once your in you have a chance. For me this rebuild isn't as bad as what I've seen.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by VikingLord » Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:33 pm

CharVike wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:51 pm
One thing that got under my skin was the floating duck Teddy threw over the middle on their last drive. Where were are two high cost safeties? That ball needed to be batted down at a minimum. IMO those two need to be shoved out the door the minute the season ends. Tell them to pack your stuff and get out. I'd be looking at practice squads right now for some bodies. Nothing to lose at this point. This type of play has been going on all year. That should give 20 mill or so in CAP relief. Sorry for the negative but I'm tired of the crap safety play show.
Here's my theory:

With the youth movement at CB the Vikings have asked both Smith and Harris to play more outside and up looking to help out on the perimeter. That's led to a general softness in the deep middle part of the field, although I don't think on most plays it is a glaring weakness. As a sidenote, Kendricks has been a BEAST at MLB taking away that intermediate middle part of the field. I don't think I can recall a year where a LB was so consistently getting his hands on passes to that area of the field. That has made a big difference in allowing the Vikings to use their safeties to help on the outside.

A second factor on the particular play you mentioned was the situation itself. The Panthers needed a lot of yards and didn't have a lot of time to get them. As a general rule one would expect them to look for intermediate sideline routes where the receiver could get out of bounds and stop the clock. So it made sense for the Vikings to focus both the CBs and the safeties on the outside routes, which left the middle more vulnerable. The Panthers got the completion, but the clock ticked on.

I can't say the safety play has been horrible. Smith is kind of a gambler and sometimes he gets burned pretty badly, but overall he's a savvy, hard-nosed player and leader on the defense. Harris is solid overall. His biggest weakness is he is a little slow to react to receivers on deeper routes. I don't think the Vikings needed to stretch to keep him, but he's not a liability.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by CharVike » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:24 am

VikingLord wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:33 pm
CharVike wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:51 pm
One thing that got under my skin was the floating duck Teddy threw over the middle on their last drive. Where were are two high cost safeties? That ball needed to be batted down at a minimum. IMO those two need to be shoved out the door the minute the season ends. Tell them to pack your stuff and get out. I'd be looking at practice squads right now for some bodies. Nothing to lose at this point. This type of play has been going on all year. That should give 20 mill or so in CAP relief. Sorry for the negative but I'm tired of the crap safety play show.
Here's my theory:

With the youth movement at CB the Vikings have asked both Smith and Harris to play more outside and up looking to help out on the perimeter. That's led to a general softness in the deep middle part of the field, although I don't think on most plays it is a glaring weakness. As a sidenote, Kendricks has been a BEAST at MLB taking away that intermediate middle part of the field. I don't think I can recall a year where a LB was so consistently getting his hands on passes to that area of the field. That has made a big difference in allowing the Vikings to use their safeties to help on the outside.

A second factor on the particular play you mentioned was the situation itself. The Panthers needed a lot of yards and didn't have a lot of time to get them. As a general rule one would expect them to look for intermediate sideline routes where the receiver could get out of bounds and stop the clock. So it made sense for the Vikings to focus both the CBs and the safeties on the outside routes, which left the middle more vulnerable. The Panthers got the completion, but the clock ticked on.

I can't say the safety play has been horrible. Smith is kind of a gambler and sometimes he gets burned pretty badly, but overall he's a savvy, hard-nosed player and leader on the defense. Harris is solid overall. His biggest weakness is he is a little slow to react to receivers on deeper routes. I don't think the Vikings needed to stretch to keep him, but he's not a liability.
I agree with what you posted but this was a duck floating downfield and a top paid pro should be able to track that down. Perhaps I'm to critical after what seems like a bunch of deep balls with zero help over the top this season. I'm sure there is more to it than my TV eye is seeing. But these two are getting top of the line CAP for the position. You need to make many plays at that point and get some interceptions. Not once in a blue moon. Otherwise they need to take a huge cut or move on.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:44 pm

CharVike wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:24 am
VikingLord wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:33 pm


Here's my theory:

With the youth movement at CB the Vikings have asked both Smith and Harris to play more outside and up looking to help out on the perimeter. That's led to a general softness in the deep middle part of the field, although I don't think on most plays it is a glaring weakness. As a sidenote, Kendricks has been a BEAST at MLB taking away that intermediate middle part of the field. I don't think I can recall a year where a LB was so consistently getting his hands on passes to that area of the field. That has made a big difference in allowing the Vikings to use their safeties to help on the outside.

A second factor on the particular play you mentioned was the situation itself. The Panthers needed a lot of yards and didn't have a lot of time to get them. As a general rule one would expect them to look for intermediate sideline routes where the receiver could get out of bounds and stop the clock. So it made sense for the Vikings to focus both the CBs and the safeties on the outside routes, which left the middle more vulnerable. The Panthers got the completion, but the clock ticked on.

I can't say the safety play has been horrible. Smith is kind of a gambler and sometimes he gets burned pretty badly, but overall he's a savvy, hard-nosed player and leader on the defense. Harris is solid overall. His biggest weakness is he is a little slow to react to receivers on deeper routes. I don't think the Vikings needed to stretch to keep him, but he's not a liability.
I agree with what you posted but this was a duck floating downfield and a top paid pro should be able to track that down. Perhaps I'm to critical after what seems like a bunch of deep balls with zero help over the top this season. I'm sure there is more to it than my TV eye is seeing. But these two are getting top of the line CAP for the position. You need to make many plays at that point and get some interceptions. Not once in a blue moon. Otherwise they need to take a huge cut or move on.
Actually I've watched that play back a few times. That was a pretty good throw by Teddy, not a floater at all. Granted, we shouldn't be giving up 34-yard pass plays in the last minute of a game ... you should never give up anything over the top in that situation. But it was a good throw. Watch it back. You'll see what I mean.

And by the way, I'd still take Cousins over Teddy any day of the week. Teddy's a little more mobile and very likeable. Beyond that, there isn't a skill he doesn't rank behind Cousins IMO.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by Cliff » Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:06 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:44 pm
CharVike wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:24 am

I agree with what you posted but this was a duck floating downfield and a top paid pro should be able to track that down. Perhaps I'm to critical after what seems like a bunch of deep balls with zero help over the top this season. I'm sure there is more to it than my TV eye is seeing. But these two are getting top of the line CAP for the position. You need to make many plays at that point and get some interceptions. Not once in a blue moon. Otherwise they need to take a huge cut or move on.
Actually I've watched that play back a few times. That was a pretty good throw by Teddy, not a floater at all. Granted, we shouldn't be giving up 34-yard pass plays in the last minute of a game ... you should never give up anything over the top in that situation. But it was a good throw. Watch it back. You'll see what I mean.

And by the way, I'd still take Cousins over Teddy any day of the week. Teddy's a little more mobile and very likeable. Beyond that, there isn't a skill he doesn't rank behind Cousins IMO.
I think the team was also caught off guard by it going down the middle. I'm sure with zero time outs they expected a pass for the sidelines.

As far as skills, it all depends on which game you watch. Even this one where the Vikings won Teddy put his team in a position to win even though the Kicker couldn't get it through.

As far as Teddy Vs. Kirk and skill rankings, I used to think that too. That Cousins had more of the "raw materials" but was more of a headcase than Teddy. Now I'm not so sure. I think it's undeniable that Kirk has a better surrounding cast - especially receivers - and yet Teddy is beating Kirk in several different categories in 2020 such as completion %, QBR, and fewer INTs in more attempts.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:06 pm

Cliff wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:06 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:44 pm

Actually I've watched that play back a few times. That was a pretty good throw by Teddy, not a floater at all. Granted, we shouldn't be giving up 34-yard pass plays in the last minute of a game ... you should never give up anything over the top in that situation. But it was a good throw. Watch it back. You'll see what I mean.

And by the way, I'd still take Cousins over Teddy any day of the week. Teddy's a little more mobile and very likeable. Beyond that, there isn't a skill he doesn't rank behind Cousins IMO.
I think the team was also caught off guard by it going down the middle. I'm sure with zero time outs they expected a pass for the sidelines.

As far as skills, it all depends on which game you watch. Even this one where the Vikings won Teddy put his team in a position to win even though the Kicker couldn't get it through.

As far as Teddy Vs. Kirk and skill rankings, I used to think that too. That Cousins had more of the "raw materials" but was more of a headcase than Teddy. Now I'm not so sure. I think it's undeniable that Kirk has a better surrounding cast - especially receivers - and yet Teddy is beating Kirk in several different categories in 2020 such as completion %, QBR, and fewer INTs in more attempts.
Here we go with QBR again. Who on earth actually knows how that stat is calculated? I don't.

Kirk's completion percentage is lower, yes. His total yards are lower. But his YPA is a full yard higher, and he's thrown 10 more TD passes with fewer attempts. As for the interceptions, most of Cousins' picks came in three games. The rest of the season, he's been very solid, with a 1.2% interception rate. I realize those three stinkers count, but they're an anomaly. In 43 regular-season games with the Vikings, he's only had four multiple-INT games, with three of them coming in the first six games of this year.

To me, the biggest difference is in simple arm talent. This is evidenced by the wide difference in more advanced stats.

• Air Yards per Attempt — Teddy is a full 2 yards behind Kirk. That's a lot.
• Air Yards per Completion — Again, Kirk is ahead by 2 full yards.
• Yards After Catch — Teddy has 400 more YAC than Kirk, which suggests that Teddy checks down a lot (he does).
• On-target percentage — almost identical, even though Cousins is throwing it significantly farther downfield per throw.

Plus there's just the eye test. When I watch both of them throw, I see Cousins as a better pure passer than Teddy, especially down the field. Yeah, Kirk is wound a little tight, and he's been known to panic under pressure. But he's also well-known for standing in there and delivering while taking a hit, and he's never been injured.

To each his own, I guess. I'll take Cousins.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by Cliff » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:30 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:06 pm
Here we go with QBR again. Who on earth actually knows how that stat is calculated? I don't.

Kirk's completion percentage is lower, yes. His total yards are lower. But his YPA is a full yard higher, and he's thrown 10 more TD passes with fewer attempts. As for the interceptions, most of Cousins' picks came in three games. The rest of the season, he's been very solid, with a 1.2% interception rate. I realize those three stinkers count, but they're an anomaly. In 43 regular-season games with the Vikings, he's only had four multiple-INT games, with three of them coming in the first six games of this year.

To me, the biggest difference is in simple arm talent. This is evidenced by the wide difference in more advanced stats.

• Air Yards per Attempt — Teddy is a full 2 yards behind Kirk. That's a lot.
• Air Yards per Completion — Again, Kirk is ahead by 2 full yards.
• Yards After Catch — Teddy has 400 more YAC than Kirk, which suggests that Teddy checks down a lot (he does).
• On-target percentage — almost identical, even though Cousins is throwing it significantly farther downfield per throw.

Plus there's just the eye test. When I watch both of them throw, I see Cousins as a better pure passer than Teddy, especially down the field. Yeah, Kirk is wound a little tight, and he's been known to panic under pressure. But he's also well-known for standing in there and delivering while taking a hit, and he's never been injured.

To each his own, I guess. I'll take Cousins.
Article Link
There are six steps to building QBR:

Each QB "action play" (passes, rushes, sacks, scrambles, or penalties attributable to the QB) is measured in terms of the expected points added (EPA)

Adjust for the difficulty of each play. EPA is adjusted based on the type and depth of a pass, and whether the QB was pressured.

If there is a completion, he only is credited for the typical number of yards after the catch (passer rating takes all yards into effect) based on the type and depth of the pass

There is a discount on garbage time, or a time where the score is out of reach near the end of the game.

Opponent adjustment: More credit is given with tougher defenses and vice versa.

QBR averages the adjusted EPA per play and transforms it to a 0 to 100 scale, with 50 being average.
More or less it's an attempt to paint a fuller picture of a quarterbacks play. Whether or not you're interested in it is preference, of course. It does things like limits the important of YAC for a QB and garbage time play. It's imperfect like other stats but I don't think it's irrelevant.

To each his own indeed! Even if we could change each others minds it's not like there are any real world impacts so SKOL!

I know up until now we've been discussing them in a "raw ability" kind of way. Which would you rather have on your team right now all things considered rather than just ability. Do you think Cousins is so much more skilled than Teddy that is justifies weakening the rest of the roster as it has?
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by psjordan » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:55 am

Cliff wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:30 am
Which would you rather have on your team right now all things considered rather than just ability. Do you think Cousins is so much more skilled than Teddy that is justifies weakening the rest of the roster as it has?
Teddy's $63M contract is no slouch, but yes Cousins costs more. I am not entirely sold the what, $10M? annual difference definitively "weakens our roster" more than Teddy's $ do to CAR. A better comparison might be Teddy+CMC vs. Kirk+Cook. The $ are probably similar there, so any "roster weakening" is almost factored out just using two guys at two positions.

And I'd take our two all day against their two.

I don't get riled up over contract $ anymore, ever since 1989 when Jon Koncak (NBA, ATL) signed for $2M per year as a scrub sub. He may have been the first player getting $2M+ per year in the NBA in fact. I was WOWED at the time. He became forever known as "Jon Contract". Since then I don't even blink at the initial contract $ players sign for, since I know it will be eclipsed in no time by others at the same position. I mean, Wentz is a $59M cap hit next year.

So I don't really factor Kirk's $ into whether I am OK with him starting for my team, or whether I'd prefer him over Teddy. The market is the market salary-wise.

All in, I'd take Kirk over Teddy all day as my team's starter.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:00 am

Cliff wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:30 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:06 pm
Here we go with QBR again. Who on earth actually knows how that stat is calculated? I don't.

Kirk's completion percentage is lower, yes. His total yards are lower. But his YPA is a full yard higher, and he's thrown 10 more TD passes with fewer attempts. As for the interceptions, most of Cousins' picks came in three games. The rest of the season, he's been very solid, with a 1.2% interception rate. I realize those three stinkers count, but they're an anomaly. In 43 regular-season games with the Vikings, he's only had four multiple-INT games, with three of them coming in the first six games of this year.

To me, the biggest difference is in simple arm talent. This is evidenced by the wide difference in more advanced stats.

• Air Yards per Attempt — Teddy is a full 2 yards behind Kirk. That's a lot.
• Air Yards per Completion — Again, Kirk is ahead by 2 full yards.
• Yards After Catch — Teddy has 400 more YAC than Kirk, which suggests that Teddy checks down a lot (he does).
• On-target percentage — almost identical, even though Cousins is throwing it significantly farther downfield per throw.

Plus there's just the eye test. When I watch both of them throw, I see Cousins as a better pure passer than Teddy, especially down the field. Yeah, Kirk is wound a little tight, and he's been known to panic under pressure. But he's also well-known for standing in there and delivering while taking a hit, and he's never been injured.

To each his own, I guess. I'll take Cousins.
Article Link
There are six steps to building QBR:

Each QB "action play" (passes, rushes, sacks, scrambles, or penalties attributable to the QB) is measured in terms of the expected points added (EPA)

Adjust for the difficulty of each play. EPA is adjusted based on the type and depth of a pass, and whether the QB was pressured.

If there is a completion, he only is credited for the typical number of yards after the catch (passer rating takes all yards into effect) based on the type and depth of the pass

There is a discount on garbage time, or a time where the score is out of reach near the end of the game.

Opponent adjustment: More credit is given with tougher defenses and vice versa.

QBR averages the adjusted EPA per play and transforms it to a 0 to 100 scale, with 50 being average.
More or less it's an attempt to paint a fuller picture of a quarterbacks play. Whether or not you're interested in it is preference, of course. It does things like limits the important of YAC for a QB and garbage time play. It's imperfect like other stats but I don't think it's irrelevant.

To each his own indeed! Even if we could change each others minds it's not like there are any real world impacts so SKOL!

I know up until now we've been discussing them in a "raw ability" kind of way. Which would you rather have on your team right now all things considered rather than just ability. Do you think Cousins is so much more skilled than Teddy that is justifies weakening the rest of the roster as it has?
Great question.

First of all, Cousins' contract hasn't really weakened the roster. Not this year. Cousins' cap hit is $21 million, which is the 14th-highest in the NFL. I would submit to you that the $22 million spent on Anthony Harris and Harrison Smith, the $9 million spent on Kyle Rudolph, and the $21.7 million spent on players who haven't donned a uniform (Danielle Hunter and Anthony Barr) have hurt worse. And considering the cost of quarterbacks these days, it's almost a bargain. You have guys like Jacoby Brissett, Carson Wentz, Jimmy Garoppolo and Philip Rivers making more.

Teddy's cap hit is $14 million this year. And yes, I think Cousins is $7 million better.

Next year? Not so simple. Cousins' cap number jumps to $31 million, which will (as of this writing) be 9th highest in the league. In this day and age, that would normally not be the worst thing in the world for a veteran quarterback, in his fourth year with the team, who is probably top 10 in the league or close. But with the potential for a greatly reduced cap next year, I would say yes ... it could be damaging to the Vikings.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by CharVike » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:21 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:44 pm
CharVike wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:24 am

I agree with what you posted but this was a duck floating downfield and a top paid pro should be able to track that down. Perhaps I'm to critical after what seems like a bunch of deep balls with zero help over the top this season. I'm sure there is more to it than my TV eye is seeing. But these two are getting top of the line CAP for the position. You need to make many plays at that point and get some interceptions. Not once in a blue moon. Otherwise they need to take a huge cut or move on.
Actually I've watched that play back a few times. That was a pretty good throw by Teddy, not a floater at all. Granted, we shouldn't be giving up 34-yard pass plays in the last minute of a game ... you should never give up anything over the top in that situation. But it was a good throw. Watch it back. You'll see what I mean.

And by the way, I'd still take Cousins over Teddy any day of the week. Teddy's a little more mobile and very likeable. Beyond that, there isn't a skill he doesn't rank behind Cousins IMO.
Your right it was a good throw. Your also right that you can't give up a long pass in that situation. But S happens. Cousins is by far better than Teddy. Teddy is a favorite here but even the Saints didn't have much use for him. In the playoff game when Brees was hurt Teddy didn't come in some guy I never heard of came in. That tells the story. I'm just glad he's no longer here. We are in better position at this point. Sometimes I can jump to quick and off based observations which isn't a good thing most of the time. One last thing about Cousins mobility. People seem to think he's a stick in the mud. I've seen the guy move pretty good. Right now our OL is a sive and he gets out of the way. Of course he's no RG III in movement but I wouldn't want that anyway. Just a matter of time before a guy like this is done. Just like what happened to the best running/throwing QB IMO Steve Young. One hit and over. He's lucky he didn't have permanent brain damage.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by Cliff » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:54 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:00 am
First of all, Cousins' contract hasn't really weakened the roster. Not this year. Cousins' cap hit is $21 million, which is the 14th-highest in the NFL. I would submit to you that the $22 million spent on Anthony Harris and Harrison Smith, the $9 million spent on Kyle Rudolph, and the $21.7 million spent on players who haven't donned a uniform (Danielle Hunter and Anthony Barr) have hurt worse. And considering the cost of quarterbacks these days, it's almost a bargain. You have guys like Jacoby Brissett, Carson Wentz, Jimmy Garoppolo and Philip Rivers making more.

Teddy's cap hit is $14 million this year. And yes, I think Cousins is $7 million better.
Except this isn't Kirk's first year on the roster and I think it can be argued that his cap hit has been slowly draining the roster since 2018. Cap hit in 2018 was 24 million, in 2019 was 29 million, and this year is 31 million (according to sporting news but I've seen conflicting numbers agreeing with your 21 as well).

Whether or not he's "draining it" kind of comes down to if you think he's a top QB or not. His cap hit isn't bad if you agree he's a top 5ish QB. A top 5 QB can make up enough in skill at the most important position to justify it. We don't need to get into the "top 5 QB" argument. Suffice it to say I don't consider him even top 10 as there are 10 other QBs I'd take over Cousins (not counting Teddy).
Next year? Not so simple. Cousins' cap number jumps to $31 million, which will (as of this writing) be 9th highest in the league. In this day and age, that would normally not be the worst thing in the world for a veteran quarterback, in his fourth year with the team, who is probably top 10 in the league or close. But with the potential for a greatly reduced cap next year, I would say yes ... it could be damaging to the Vikings.
We'll have to see how it shakes out. In 2022 the cap hit is 45 million so it doesn't get better from there.

Another thing is my annoyance with the team's handling of QB in general which isn't his fault but makes me further not like having him on the team. With the average QB retirement age being early-to-mid 30s, Kirk being 32 with two years remaining under contract, and the team being in the condition it's in feels like the team should be thinking about that and maybe grooming another QB. Here's hoping they draft one higher than round 6 next year.

One thing is for sure, we're going to need these younger (and cheaper) guys to continue to grow and show up against higher level teams if we don't want it to hurt too bad.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:56 am

CharVike wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:21 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:44 pm

Actually I've watched that play back a few times. That was a pretty good throw by Teddy, not a floater at all. Granted, we shouldn't be giving up 34-yard pass plays in the last minute of a game ... you should never give up anything over the top in that situation. But it was a good throw. Watch it back. You'll see what I mean.

And by the way, I'd still take Cousins over Teddy any day of the week. Teddy's a little more mobile and very likeable. Beyond that, there isn't a skill he doesn't rank behind Cousins IMO.
Your right it was a good throw. Your also right that you can't give up a long pass in that situation. But S happens. Cousins is by far better than Teddy. Teddy is a favorite here but even the Saints didn't have much use for him. In the playoff game when Brees was hurt Teddy didn't come in some guy I never heard of came in. That tells the story. I'm just glad he's no longer here. We are in better position at this point. Sometimes I can jump to quick and off based observations which isn't a good thing most of the time. One last thing about Cousins mobility. People seem to think he's a stick in the mud. I've seen the guy move pretty good. Right now our OL is a sive and he gets out of the way. Of course he's no RG III in movement but I wouldn't want that anyway. Just a matter of time before a guy like this is done. Just like what happened to the best running/throwing QB IMO Steve Young. One hit and over. He's lucky he didn't have permanent brain damage.
Funny thing about Kirk and mobility.

I remember when he was in Washington and Kyle Shanahan was his OC. They were always a problem for the Vikings because Shanahan liked to roll him out and have him throw on the run, which Cousins is good at. But in Minnesota when John DeFilippo was OC, Cousins started sitting in the pocket. At that point he did, indeed, look like a statue. He took a lot of sacks that we all thought he could have avoided. I honestly believe it was how he was coached.

This year under Kubiak, Cousins is being encouraged to use his feet more. Kubiak and his coaches have stressed it with him since training camp. I've actually been surprised at times at how mobile he can be. As you said, nobody's gonna mistake him for Lamar Jackson or Patrick Mahomes. But he can move sufficiently to escape the rush long enough to get throws off.

From where I sit, Cousins seemed to regress as a QB under DeFilippo, get better under Kevin Stefanski, and now is settling in and doing great under Kubiak. This comes as no surprise. Gary Kubiak has always gotten the most out of his quarterbacks. It just took Cousins and Kubiak some time, with no OTAs or preseason, to get on the same page.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by CharVike » Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:08 am

Cliff wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:06 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:44 pm

Actually I've watched that play back a few times. That was a pretty good throw by Teddy, not a floater at all. Granted, we shouldn't be giving up 34-yard pass plays in the last minute of a game ... you should never give up anything over the top in that situation. But it was a good throw. Watch it back. You'll see what I mean.

And by the way, I'd still take Cousins over Teddy any day of the week. Teddy's a little more mobile and very likeable. Beyond that, there isn't a skill he doesn't rank behind Cousins IMO.
I think the team was also caught off guard by it going down the middle. I'm sure with zero time outs they expected a pass for the sidelines.

As far as skills, it all depends on which game you watch. Even this one where the Vikings won Teddy put his team in a position to win even though the Kicker couldn't get it through.

As far as Teddy Vs. Kirk and skill rankings, I used to think that too. That Cousins had more of the "raw materials" but was more of a headcase than Teddy. Now I'm not so sure. I think it's undeniable that Kirk has a better surrounding cast - especially receivers - and yet Teddy is beating Kirk in several different categories in 2020 such as completion %, QBR, and fewer INTs in more attempts.
Teddy had his chance and he didn't do much IMO. 14 of the teams points had nothing to do with Teddy. When Beebe handed him the game he couldn't get a TD. Then he set up his FG kicker with a 53 yard attempt. But it was an attempt. Our team played about as bad as a team could. Our best WR was out and our RB has hit a wall and can't do anything. We have no pass rush and rookies playing the CB spots. That's a game you need to take. It was handed to him. Was every bad play him? No. But the QB gets the good and bad overall. Just like Cousins is labeled a loser. He gets that because that Skin team couldn't do much. They still can't do much.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:34 am

Cliff wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:54 am
Except this isn't Kirk's first year on the roster and I think it can be argued that his cap hit has been slowly draining the roster since 2018. Cap hit in 2018 was 24 million, in 2019 was 29 million, and this year is 31 million (according to sporting news but I've seen conflicting numbers agreeing with your 21 as well).
His cap hit is $21 million. Always use overthecap.com. It's by far the most accurate and up to date.
Cliff wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:54 am
Whether or not he's "draining it" kind of comes down to if you think he's a top QB or not. His cap hit isn't bad if you agree he's a top 5ish QB. A top 5 QB can make up enough in skill at the most important position to justify it. We don't need to get into the "top 5 QB" argument. Suffice it to say I don't consider him even top 10 as there are 10 other QBs I'd take over Cousins (not counting Teddy).
Except that his cap hit is 14th highest in the league.
Cliff wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:54 am
We'll have to see how it shakes out. In 2022 the cap hit is 45 million so it doesn't get better from there.
2022 is two years away. That's an eternity in the NFL.

Let me ask you a few things.

What if Kirk's play over the past five weeks continues? What if the Vikings make the playoffs and win a game, with a defense that most thought had no chance for that success? Is there nothing that will convince you that Kirk Cousins is a franchise quarterback?

In his two previous seasons here, Kirk Cousins has had a bad OC, a rookie OC, no OTAs or preseason with a third OC, and an offensive line that, until Ezra Cleveland's insertion at guard after the bye, has been among the worst in the league. Now he's on the same page with an OC who has a proven track record for success in this league. I see no reason his solid play can't continue.

Most people on this board have said over and over and over again — give Cousins some weapons and a decent O-line, and he can be really good. Well guess what? The past five games, he's had that, and only Patrick Mahomes has been better over that time. You say he's not Top 10, and you just assume that's correct. I do not agree with your assertion. No, he can't lift an otherwise mediocre franchise out of the basement, as Aaron Rodgers routinely does in Green Bay. But I believe he's top 10 under the right conditions, which he clearly has now. And if he's top 10, then his $31 million cap hit for 2021 are right in line with where he should be.
Cliff wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:54 am
Another thing is my annoyance with the team's handling of QB in general which isn't his fault but makes me further not like having him on the team. With the average QB retirement age being early-to-mid 30s, Kirk being 32 with two years remaining under contract, and the team being in the condition it's in feels like the team should be thinking about that and maybe grooming another QB. Here's hoping they draft one higher than round 6 next year.
Who is Pittsburgh's backup? Can you name the backup in Kansas City? Seattle? The Rams? Tennessee? The Saints have Taysom Hill, a guy who throws like a tight end and is 2-0 against two terrible teams, and the far more talented Jameis Winston, who they apparently don't trust. The reigning NFC champion 49ers have been trotting out Nick Mullens and C.J. Beathard. Baltimore has RGIII, and we see what that got them. Cleveland, not exactly solid at starting QB, has Case Keenum, whom nobody here wanted.

Everybody here makes this huge deal out of who the backup quarterback is, but nobody else has a starting-caliber backup, either.

Look, you don't draft Aaron Rodgers when you already have Brett Favre unless you plan to move on from Brett Favre. Why do you think Rodgers got his panties in a wad when the Packers used a first-round pick on Jordan Love? The Vikings clearly do not plan to move on from Kirk Cousins. They just extended him for two years with no possibility of getting out of it. so they're not going to waste high-round draft capital on a guy they don't plan on playing. Especially when there are other needs.
Cliff wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:54 am
One thing is for sure, we're going to need these younger (and cheaper) guys to continue to grow and show up against higher level teams if we don't want it to hurt too bad.
Can't disagree with you here. But every team is in the same boat. There are a half dozen guys on every roster that monopolize the team's cap space. So every team needs cheap dudes who contribute more than their salaries might indicate.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by CharVike » Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:04 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:56 am
CharVike wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:21 am

Your right it was a good throw. Your also right that you can't give up a long pass in that situation. But S happens. Cousins is by far better than Teddy. Teddy is a favorite here but even the Saints didn't have much use for him. In the playoff game when Brees was hurt Teddy didn't come in some guy I never heard of came in. That tells the story. I'm just glad he's no longer here. We are in better position at this point. Sometimes I can jump to quick and off based observations which isn't a good thing most of the time. One last thing about Cousins mobility. People seem to think he's a stick in the mud. I've seen the guy move pretty good. Right now our OL is a sive and he gets out of the way. Of course he's no RG III in movement but I wouldn't want that anyway. Just a matter of time before a guy like this is done. Just like what happened to the best running/throwing QB IMO Steve Young. One hit and over. He's lucky he didn't have permanent brain damage.
Funny thing about Kirk and mobility.

I remember when he was in Washington and Kyle Shanahan was his OC. They were always a problem for the Vikings because Shanahan liked to roll him out and have him throw on the run, which Cousins is good at. But in Minnesota when John DeFilippo was OC, Cousins started sitting in the pocket. At that point he did, indeed, look like a statue. He took a lot of sacks that we all thought he could have avoided. I honestly believe it was how he was coached.

This year under Kubiak, Cousins is being encouraged to use his feet more. Kubiak and his coaches have stressed it with him since training camp. I've actually been surprised at times at how mobile he can be. As you said, nobody's gonna mistake him for Lamar Jackson or Patrick Mahomes. But he can move sufficiently to escape the rush long enough to get throws off.

From where I sit, Cousins seemed to regress as a QB under DeFilippo, get better under Kevin Stefanski, and now is settling in and doing great under Kubiak. This comes as no surprise. Gary Kubiak has always gotten the most out of his quarterbacks. It just took Cousins and Kubiak some time, with no OTAs or preseason, to get on the same page.
How many players can produce when it's a swinging door at the most important piece in his case OC. It's almost laughable. I didn't like the Kubiak signing but I think I was wrong on that one. The best thing is he's still here and doing a good job. One more thing about Kirk is the CAP. Many are up in arms about that hit which is years out which is a lifetime in the CAP world. That hit isn't stuck in the mud either. That will be changed. Even if we trade him the new team will redo the deal. If we keep him which is what I see happening then a new deal will be done so it will change. People seem to forget is that the CAP basically needs to be spent at the low level. That's part of the deal. We are lucky that the Wilf's so go ahead and spend it all and above just fill the stadium so we make money. Once the CAP shrinks to at whatever level that will be all teams will be in the same boat. All teams that have a top end QB will keep that player because those players are extremely rare. That's always been the case in the NFL. So yea we might have to cut half the roster. But no team will sign them because they have the same problem. Most will come back at a price to fit under the CAP. I'm off that now.
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