Justin Jefferson

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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:37 am

Texas Vike wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:36 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:00 pm
Regarding the Diggs-for-Jefferson trade, I'll go ahead and say the thing nobody else wants to say ... WE WIN.

So Diggs could take the top off a defense, huh? Then why did it take him four seasons to hit 1,000 yards? Why is his career average just 12.4 yards per catch? Why has he never been named to even one Pro Bowl? (Not exactly a high bar.) Yes, last year he averaged 17.9 yards per catch. So what? Jefferson is averaging 18.1. Jefferson is better after the catch, and from what I can see, he's already the route runner Diggs is. He's taller, he's stronger, he's got better hands, and he's tougher.
While I agree with all of the essential points of your post, I feel compelled to answer your question, since it seems to refer to my post, where I mentioned "taking the top off" as the lone advantage that Diggs has on JJ.

Has JJ beaten a defensive back long? I honestly don't remember him doing that a single time, but my memory isn't the best, so I may be wrong here. He seems to work underneath amazingly well, and then gain a ton of yards after the catch, as you point out. What's impressive is that JJ doesn't look that stout, but he can carry defenders pretty damn well anyways. He's a feisty runner with the ball in his hands.

Did you see Diggs' apparent game-winner vs. AZ on Sunday? That was vintage Diggs, winning over the top on a diving catch against one of the league's premiere CBs. Diggs makes these catches look routine, and very few WRs can do that.
Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Rajkf-D2P4

But here's the rub, and you mention it and I totally agree: How does Diggs act after his catch? By screaming, "That's why you pay me!"

Wow. I have to say, that reveals a fair bit about Diggs' character and his demons. I always loved his competitiveness, but some of it seems to come from a weird place; a chip on his shoulder; an insecurity... something I can't quite put my finger on, but I'll tell you what, that's a weird thing to be focused on in a moment when YOUR TEAM looks like they just won a game. I'll take the griddy instead. :v):
Yeah, I confess it was directed at you ... or more accurately, your comment. Nothing personal. Always appreciate your takes.

My response was more about Diggs than it was about Jefferson. It's this idea that Stefon Diggs is one of the league's great deep threats, and I just don't see it. Never have. Cousins and Diggs connected on several deep shots last year, but before that, it didn't happen often with the Vikings. It really didn't. He caught a lot of underneath stuff, occasionally made people miss, but rarely over the top. Announcers always said that, but until last year, it was more threat or myth than reality. Of course, Diggs would simply blame his quarterbacks. Yet in Buffalo, where he plays with arguably the strongest-armed passer in the league, his per catch average is a half-yard less than Adam Thielen's.

Plus, I'll go back to what I mentioned earlier. Stefon Diggs has never even been named to a Pro Bowl. Now, we all scoff at Pro Bowl selections, but remember: Two-thirds of the balloting weight goes to players and coaches. That tells you what they think of Stefon Diggs. Which leads me to try and answer your question about what's wrong with Diggs. He thinks he's disrespected. He's got a bad case of ABS, also known as Antonio Brown Syndrome. "You disrespected me by drafting me low, so now I'm gonna run my mouth until you show me some respect, and then I'm gonna run my mouth some more because you're not showing me enough."

You make a great point about Diggs' response to the TD against Arizona. "That's why you pay me!" is exactly what I would expect him to yell because Stefon Diggs is all about Stefon Diggs. I never saw it coming with him. Early in his career, he always seemed really down to earth. But something changed with Diggs after the Minneapolis Miracle. It was like he turned himself into a god.

Maybe Justin Jefferson goes prima donna down the road. Somehow I doubt it.

I'll say it again. Stefon Diggs has more catches than Justin Jefferson (twice as many targets, but I digress). He has more yards. He has one more TD. Yet I'll take Justin Jefferson every day of the week and twice on Sunday. JJ makes the most of his opportunities, and he plays a high-profile position while remaining somewhat humble. I think the kid has perennial All-Pro written all over him if he can stay healthy.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by VikingLord » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:45 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:37 am
I'll say it again. Stefon Diggs has more catches than Justin Jefferson (twice as many targets, but I digress). He has more yards. He has one more TD. Yet I'll take Justin Jefferson every day of the week and twice on Sunday. JJ makes the most of his opportunities, and he plays a high-profile position while remaining somewhat humble. I think the kid has perennial All-Pro written all over him if he can stay healthy.
Great observations.

I'll make one more.

Diggs is a seasoned vet at the top of his career. Jefferson is in his first season and IIRC he didn't even get significant playing time until several games into that season. And yet, as you note, Jefferson's stat line is still in the conversation with Diggs.

If I were looking at trend lines for the two, Diggs' line is plateauing, while Jefferson's line is rapidly rising and not far away from where Diggs is right now.

I agree with you Kapp - I think history will show the Vikings crushed this trade.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:04 am

VikingLord wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:45 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:37 am
I'll say it again. Stefon Diggs has more catches than Justin Jefferson (twice as many targets, but I digress). He has more yards. He has one more TD. Yet I'll take Justin Jefferson every day of the week and twice on Sunday. JJ makes the most of his opportunities, and he plays a high-profile position while remaining somewhat humble. I think the kid has perennial All-Pro written all over him if he can stay healthy.
Great observations.

I'll make one more.

Diggs is a seasoned vet at the top of his career. Jefferson is in his first season and IIRC he didn't even get significant playing time until several games into that season. And yet, as you note, Jefferson's stat line is still in the conversation with Diggs.

If I were looking at trend lines for the two, Diggs' line is plateauing, while Jefferson's line is rapidly rising and not far away from where Diggs is right now.

I agree with you Kapp - I think history will show the Vikings crushed this trade.
Consider this.

Justin Jefferson is on pace for 1,354 yards receiving this year. Not only is that ahead of Randy Moss's rookie season (1,313 yards), but it's also close to being on pace to break the all-time record for receiving yards by a rookie (1,377 by Anquan Boldin in 2003). THAT is impressive.

He's also led the NFL in PFF receiving grade in 4 out of the 9 weeks he's played. That includes Weeks 1 and 2, when he was an afterthought. Note that he didn't lead rookies in PFF grade. He led the entire NFL.

You're right, VL. We've seen the best of Stefon Diggs. We haven't scratched the surface with Justin Jefferson.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by Texas Vike » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:32 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:37 am
Texas Vike wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:36 am


While I agree with all of the essential points of your post, I feel compelled to answer your question, since it seems to refer to my post, where I mentioned "taking the top off" as the lone advantage that Diggs has on JJ.

Has JJ beaten a defensive back long? I honestly don't remember him doing that a single time, but my memory isn't the best, so I may be wrong here. He seems to work underneath amazingly well, and then gain a ton of yards after the catch, as you point out. What's impressive is that JJ doesn't look that stout, but he can carry defenders pretty damn well anyways. He's a feisty runner with the ball in his hands.

Did you see Diggs' apparent game-winner vs. AZ on Sunday? That was vintage Diggs, winning over the top on a diving catch against one of the league's premiere CBs. Diggs makes these catches look routine, and very few WRs can do that.
Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Rajkf-D2P4

But here's the rub, and you mention it and I totally agree: How does Diggs act after his catch? By screaming, "That's why you pay me!"

Wow. I have to say, that reveals a fair bit about Diggs' character and his demons. I always loved his competitiveness, but some of it seems to come from a weird place; a chip on his shoulder; an insecurity... something I can't quite put my finger on, but I'll tell you what, that's a weird thing to be focused on in a moment when YOUR TEAM looks like they just won a game. I'll take the griddy instead. :v):
Yeah, I confess it was directed at you ... or more accurately, your comment. Nothing personal. Always appreciate your takes.

My response was more about Diggs than it was about Jefferson. It's this idea that Stefon Diggs is one of the league's great deep threats, and I just don't see it. Never have. Cousins and Diggs connected on several deep shots last year, but before that, it didn't happen often with the Vikings. It really didn't. He caught a lot of underneath stuff, occasionally made people miss, but rarely over the top. Announcers always said that, but until last year, it was more threat or myth than reality. Of course, Diggs would simply blame his quarterbacks. Yet in Buffalo, where he plays with arguably the strongest-armed passer in the league, his per catch average is a half-yard less than Adam Thielen's.

Plus, I'll go back to what I mentioned earlier. Stefon Diggs has never even been named to a Pro Bowl. Now, we all scoff at Pro Bowl selections, but remember: Two-thirds of the balloting weight goes to players and coaches. That tells you what they think of Stefon Diggs. Which leads me to try and answer your question about what's wrong with Diggs. He thinks he's disrespected. He's got a bad case of ABS, also known as Antonio Brown Syndrome. "You disrespected me by drafting me low, so now I'm gonna run my mouth until you show me some respect, and then I'm gonna run my mouth some more because you're not showing me enough."

You make a great point about Diggs' response to the TD against Arizona. "That's why you pay me!" is exactly what I would expect him to yell because Stefon Diggs is all about Stefon Diggs. I never saw it coming with him. Early in his career, he always seemed really down to earth. But something changed with Diggs after the Minneapolis Miracle. It was like he turned himself into a god.

Maybe Justin Jefferson goes prima donna down the road. Somehow I doubt it.

I'll say it again. Stefon Diggs has more catches than Justin Jefferson (twice as many targets, but I digress). He has more yards. He has one more TD. Yet I'll take Justin Jefferson every day of the week and twice on Sunday. JJ makes the most of his opportunities, and he plays a high-profile position while remaining somewhat humble. I think the kid has perennial All-Pro written all over him if he can stay healthy.
You're right, I definitely scoff and Pro Bowl selections, but I think your point is valid and it dovetails with mine about his odd celebration words, focused on his own personal issues instead of the team.

Diggs' abilities with long balls isn't a matter of opinion, however. The stats are there. He had the second most 20+ yard catches last year. https://twitter.com/PFF/status/12714272 ... h-allen%2F

Maybe, like me with JJ, you could use a refresher on Diggs' long ball successes: https://www.facebook.com/NFL/videos/201 ... 981802066/

At any rate, we agree on the most important thing: we'd both rather have JJ and we look to have won that trade. I think the attitude difference between the two is HUGE and I would bet that the locker room is in a better place with JJ. I wish we were having this chat at a bar in Nordeast MPLS or some cabin-looking tavern in Northern MN. I'm being cautious with COVID, but must admit that I miss shooting the breeze w/ folks at a bar once in a while. :beerock:
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:39 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:00 pm
Regarding the Diggs-for-Jefferson trade, I'll go ahead and say the thing nobody else wants to say ... WE WIN.

So Diggs could take the top off a defense, huh? Then why did it take him four seasons to hit 1,000 yards? Why is his career average just 12.4 yards per catch? Why has he never been named to even one Pro Bowl? (Not exactly a high bar.) Yes, last year he averaged 17.9 yards per catch. So what? Jefferson is averaging 18.1. Jefferson is better after the catch, and from what I can see, he's already the route runner Diggs is. He's taller, he's stronger, he's got better hands, and he's tougher.

But the biggest reason we win this trade? Justin Jefferson is NOT a head case.

He brings his lunch pail and goes to work. He doesn't make idiotic cryptic tweets. He doesn't bad-mouth his teammates. He's a solid dude.

Sure, Diggs is content now because he's playing in a pass-happy offense and leading the league in targets. Let's see what happens when Josh Allen has a couple of bad games, or when he looks at other receivers more than Diggs, or when the Bills have to run the ball 40 times because there's a foot of lake-effect snow. Then the real Stefon Diggs will make an appearance, and we all know ... it won't be pretty.

We all loved Diggs — me included — when he burst onto the scene in 2015 out of nowhere. We all hold him in incredibly high regard for the Minneapolis Miracle. He'll always have a place in the hearts of Vikings fans. But for my money, Justin Jefferson is better RIGHT NOW. He's better for this team, and he's a better receiver, period.
YES Kapp, say it loud and proud! lol Reading through this thread I wanted to say many of the same things here. Very well said.

When you think about it also:

Jefferson:
-only 21 years old
-On a rookie contract
-is a team player, not an a-hole

Diggs:
-turns 27 in a week
-on a big contract
-is a selfish whine as# and all about himself

and do you want to see how Diggs acts when Allen has a bad game, he's being shut down and the team is losing? I have video proof!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPwX6SIj0eo

He's at the top of the screen, cant miss him. They are down by 9 with under a minute so it's a two score game. Watch how he walks back to the line, ended up costing him team yardage due to the penalty and then watch his pathetic route. Many of you know, I have been shredding him for quite a long time now. After how he acted at the hotel we were staying at in Buffalo last year and the 4 security guards surrounding him, how he acted all last year, the throwing of helmets, the screaming on the sideline, going AWOL for a few days, etc.I was just done with him entirely.

And I get so annoyed when I see fans say "we shouldnt have traded Diggs" or "we suck because we traded Diggs". Uh no. Some fans drool over this guy like he was Randy Moss. Not taking anything away from him because he is a good WR, but he's not THAT good. And whats funny is the guy that's currently on our team is the one chasing Randy Moss' records! Something Diggs has never done. And lets not count the first few weeks where Jefferson wasnt starting. In the last 8 weeks, Jefferson has 50+ MORE yards than Diggs does AND Jefferson has played 1 less game than Diggs in that span (Buffalo is finally on bye this week).

Give Justin Jefferson 102 targets like Diggs has gotten by week 10. Let me know what his numbers look like!!! They would put Diggs' to shame. Jefferson has about HALF the amount of targets and has out performed Diggs over the last 8 weeks. What does that tell you?

Thielen always overshadowed him. When transitioning to a run first offense, Cook also overshadowed him. Diggs didnt want out because of Kirk Cousins like some try to claim. Diggs wanted out because Diggs wasnt "the man" here. Chad Greenway called it last year and it is quite obvious now.

All I know is, I would take Justin Jefferson any day of the week and twice on Sundays. And it's not even close
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by 808vikingsfan » Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:53 pm

I think it's too early to compare. Diggs was a playmaker when he was a Viking. He's been making amazing plays for years. What some see as a head case, I saw as a motivation factor. IMO, Diggs just wanted to win. He just became frustrated because he saw failed plays time after time while being open. I don't know what he said off the field (don't remember him badmouthing any teammate), but on the field, he was elite but was never used as such.

Time will tell how JJ adapts to defenses that target him. Has he been seeing double teams yet? I am a fan of JJ. He's got great hands, he's hard to bring down. We'll see how he is in a year or two. Will he get frustrated when Cousins doesn't look his way? He did get fed a lot at LSU. Time will tell. He has been more than impressive.

But on a critical down, I'd easily take Diggs over JJ to get open. Diggs seemed to be open on every down. For Cousins to look his way and pull the trigger, that was a different story.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:26 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:39 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:00 pm
Regarding the Diggs-for-Jefferson trade, I'll go ahead and say the thing nobody else wants to say ... WE WIN.

So Diggs could take the top off a defense, huh? Then why did it take him four seasons to hit 1,000 yards? Why is his career average just 12.4 yards per catch? Why has he never been named to even one Pro Bowl? (Not exactly a high bar.) Yes, last year he averaged 17.9 yards per catch. So what? Jefferson is averaging 18.1. Jefferson is better after the catch, and from what I can see, he's already the route runner Diggs is. He's taller, he's stronger, he's got better hands, and he's tougher.

But the biggest reason we win this trade? Justin Jefferson is NOT a head case.

He brings his lunch pail and goes to work. He doesn't make idiotic cryptic tweets. He doesn't bad-mouth his teammates. He's a solid dude.

Sure, Diggs is content now because he's playing in a pass-happy offense and leading the league in targets. Let's see what happens when Josh Allen has a couple of bad games, or when he looks at other receivers more than Diggs, or when the Bills have to run the ball 40 times because there's a foot of lake-effect snow. Then the real Stefon Diggs will make an appearance, and we all know ... it won't be pretty.

We all loved Diggs — me included — when he burst onto the scene in 2015 out of nowhere. We all hold him in incredibly high regard for the Minneapolis Miracle. He'll always have a place in the hearts of Vikings fans. But for my money, Justin Jefferson is better RIGHT NOW. He's better for this team, and he's a better receiver, period.
YES Kapp, say it loud and proud! lol Reading through this thread I wanted to say many of the same things here. Very well said.

When you think about it also:

Jefferson:
-only 21 years old
-On a rookie contract
-is a team player, not an a-hole

Diggs:
-turns 27 in a week
-on a big contract
-is a selfish whine as# and all about himself

and do you want to see how Diggs acts when Allen has a bad game, he's being shut down and the team is losing? I have video proof!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPwX6SIj0eo

He's at the top of the screen, cant miss him. They are down by 9 with under a minute so it's a two score game. Watch how he walks back to the line, ended up costing him team yardage due to the penalty and then watch his pathetic route. Many of you know, I have been shredding him for quite a long time now. After how he acted at the hotel we were staying at in Buffalo last year and the 4 security guards surrounding him, how he acted all last year, the throwing of helmets, the screaming on the sideline, going AWOL for a few days, etc.I was just done with him entirely.

And I get so annoyed when I see fans say "we shouldnt have traded Diggs" or "we suck because we traded Diggs". Uh no. Some fans drool over this guy like he was Randy Moss. Not taking anything away from him because he is a good WR, but he's not THAT good. And whats funny is the guy that's currently on our team is the one chasing Randy Moss' records! Something Diggs has never done. And lets not count the first few weeks where Jefferson wasnt starting. In the last 8 weeks, Jefferson has 50+ MORE yards than Diggs does AND Jefferson has played 1 less game than Diggs in that span (Buffalo is finally on bye this week).

Give Justin Jefferson 102 targets like Diggs has gotten by week 10. Let me know what his numbers look like!!! They would put Diggs' to shame. Jefferson has about HALF the amount of targets and has out performed Diggs over the last 8 weeks. What does that tell you?

Thielen always overshadowed him. When transitioning to a run first offense, Cook also overshadowed him. Diggs didnt want out because of Kirk Cousins like some try to claim. Diggs wanted out because Diggs wasnt "the man" here. Chad Greenway called it last year and it is quite obvious now.

All I know is, I would take Justin Jefferson any day of the week and twice on Sundays. And it's not even close
Wow. That video is very telling, isn't it?

There's no way Justing Jefferson would do something like that. Not a chance.

We got a steal in my opinion.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by VikingLord » Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:45 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:04 am
Justin Jefferson is on pace for 1,354 yards receiving this year. Not only is that ahead of Randy Moss's rookie season (1,313 yards), but it's also close to being on pace to break the all-time record for receiving yards by a rookie (1,377 by Anquan Boldin in 2003). THAT is impressive.

He's also led the NFL in PFF receiving grade in 4 out of the 9 weeks he's played. That includes Weeks 1 and 2, when he was an afterthought. Note that he didn't lead rookies in PFF grade. He led the entire NFL.

You're right, VL. We've seen the best of Stefon Diggs. We haven't scratched the surface with Justin Jefferson.
That's amazing on several levels when you think about it.

And it doesn't even start being amazing with Justin Jefferson.

The interior OL was a hot mess to start the year. They couldn't run block or pass block. It was clear Cousins lacked confidence in them and as a result, he played poorly for the most part. Even the vaunted talents of a healthy Dalvin Cook couldn't overcome that.

So what does that have to do with Justin Jefferson?

Quite simply, if Cousins doesn't have time to find him, Jefferson can't have an amazing season no matter how amazing he might be. Jefferson can't shine if the clouds are in the way. With the OL clearing the sky, Cousins can do what he does well, and good, technical and sound receivers like Justin Jefferson and Adam Thielen will shine. Brightly.

So the first level, and I would argue the most essential level, of Jefferson's progress and Cook's amazing performances are the improvement of the interior OL, going from a hot mess to a unit that is playing consistently and cohesively and with a lot of passion. Whoever is responsible for that improvement, be it the players themselves, the coaches, or a combination, deserves a lot of praise right now. I thought the interior OL was irredeemable this season. They can still get better, but that was a really good defensive front 7 they just faced and they passed the test.

On the second level is Dalvin Cook and the running game. Like you, I was not sold on giving Cook a big payday, both for the main reason you cited in terms of the overall value of the position itself, but also because I wasn't convinced Cook could stay healthy. But there can be no doubt that with Cook back there, defenses can't cheat to take away the pass. Cook demands the focus of the linebackers and to a lesser degree the safeties, and with their focus on Cook, Jefferson and Thielen and the Viking TEs can find open spots on the field. It makes a difference. If teams try to focus more on Jefferson, Cook will simply kill them, so he and AT and other Vikings receivers will get favorable matchups.

And of course, there is the third level of Justin Jefferson himself. He has to know the routes. He has to run them consistently and show awareness. He has to beat a variety of coverages, make the easy and difficult catches to gain trust and chemistry with Cousins, and do the various little things that result in completions like running effectively after the catch. Last, but not least, is his enthusiasm and desire to win. I think Texas Vike commented on enjoying watching Cousins get hyped late against the Bears. I'm actually seeing a lot of that from a variety of Vikings this year, from Bradbury and Cleveland running down the field pumping their arms after a big Cook run or Gladney or Wonnum getting jacked after making a good tackle, it seems like the Vikings are just into it this year overall. Jefferson is a part of that.

The team this year seems to WANT it. Jefferson WANTS it. Cook WANTS it. I've watched this team a long time, and while this might not be the most talented Vikings team I've ever seen, it has to rank near the top in terms of overall character that I've witnessed.

Hopefully they keep it up. Stranger things have happened than watching a team everyone (myself included) thought might be vying for the first pick in next year's draft suddenly come from out of nowhere to do something special. Would be a heck of a nice surprise to finally watch that happen to the Vikings. We've had so many crushing letdowns with this team. It's time for an inspiring letup with them (I know that's not a word, but for some reason it fit).

:govikes:
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:45 am

808vikingsfan wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:53 pm
I think it's too early to compare. Diggs was a playmaker when he was a Viking. He's been making amazing plays for years. What some see as a head case, I saw as a motivation factor. IMO, Diggs just wanted to win. He just became frustrated because he saw failed plays time after time while being open. I don't know what he said off the field (don't remember him badmouthing any teammate), but on the field, he was elite but was never used as such.

Time will tell how JJ adapts to defenses that target him. Has he been seeing double teams yet? I am a fan of JJ. He's got great hands, he's hard to bring down. We'll see how he is in a year or two. Will he get frustrated when Cousins doesn't look his way? He did get fed a lot at LSU. Time will tell. He has been more than impressive.

But on a critical down, I'd easily take Diggs over JJ to get open. Diggs seemed to be open on every down. For Cousins to look his way and pull the trigger, that was a different story.
Ehhh, I'd be careful what you say. On Monday night vs the Bears, Justin Jefferson had 5 targets, 5 catches and 104 yards....on THIRD down alone
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:03 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:45 am
808vikingsfan wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:53 pm
I think it's too early to compare. Diggs was a playmaker when he was a Viking. He's been making amazing plays for years. What some see as a head case, I saw as a motivation factor. IMO, Diggs just wanted to win. He just became frustrated because he saw failed plays time after time while being open. I don't know what he said off the field (don't remember him badmouthing any teammate), but on the field, he was elite but was never used as such.

Time will tell how JJ adapts to defenses that target him. Has he been seeing double teams yet? I am a fan of JJ. He's got great hands, he's hard to bring down. We'll see how he is in a year or two. Will he get frustrated when Cousins doesn't look his way? He did get fed a lot at LSU. Time will tell. He has been more than impressive.

But on a critical down, I'd easily take Diggs over JJ to get open. Diggs seemed to be open on every down. For Cousins to look his way and pull the trigger, that was a different story.
Ehhh, I'd be careful what you say. On Monday night vs the Bears, Justin Jefferson had 5 targets, 5 catches and 104 yards....on THIRD down alone
And ... 29 of his 42 receptions have gone for first downs. I realize that's not a 3rd-down stat, but it tells you he's not just picking up garbage catches.

PHP has brought this up many times, and it bears repeating. We need to remember that Justin Jefferson was not a starter for the first two games of the season. Yet he's got 762 yards receiving. As for being fed, Stefon Diggs pissed and moaned all last year when he got 94 targets, which by my math is almost exactly the same per-game rate that JJ is receiving this year. Meanwhile Jefferson has had 5 or fewer targets in 6 of the Vikings' 9 games, yet hasn't said a word about getting the ball.

I can't find anything not to like about this kid, or this trade. I mean, he's playing and acting like a veteran. This trade was a huge win for us. If Buffalo fans see it as a win for them ... well, good for Buffalo fans.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:06 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:45 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:04 am
Justin Jefferson is on pace for 1,354 yards receiving this year. Not only is that ahead of Randy Moss's rookie season (1,313 yards), but it's also close to being on pace to break the all-time record for receiving yards by a rookie (1,377 by Anquan Boldin in 2003). THAT is impressive.

He's also led the NFL in PFF receiving grade in 4 out of the 9 weeks he's played. That includes Weeks 1 and 2, when he was an afterthought. Note that he didn't lead rookies in PFF grade. He led the entire NFL.

You're right, VL. We've seen the best of Stefon Diggs. We haven't scratched the surface with Justin Jefferson.
That's amazing on several levels when you think about it.

And it doesn't even start being amazing with Justin Jefferson.

The interior OL was a hot mess to start the year. They couldn't run block or pass block. It was clear Cousins lacked confidence in them and as a result, he played poorly for the most part. Even the vaunted talents of a healthy Dalvin Cook couldn't overcome that.

So what does that have to do with Justin Jefferson?

Quite simply, if Cousins doesn't have time to find him, Jefferson can't have an amazing season no matter how amazing he might be. Jefferson can't shine if the clouds are in the way. With the OL clearing the sky, Cousins can do what he does well, and good, technical and sound receivers like Justin Jefferson and Adam Thielen will shine. Brightly.

So the first level, and I would argue the most essential level, of Jefferson's progress and Cook's amazing performances are the improvement of the interior OL, going from a hot mess to a unit that is playing consistently and cohesively and with a lot of passion. Whoever is responsible for that improvement, be it the players themselves, the coaches, or a combination, deserves a lot of praise right now. I thought the interior OL was irredeemable this season. They can still get better, but that was a really good defensive front 7 they just faced and they passed the test.

On the second level is Dalvin Cook and the running game. Like you, I was not sold on giving Cook a big payday, both for the main reason you cited in terms of the overall value of the position itself, but also because I wasn't convinced Cook could stay healthy. But there can be no doubt that with Cook back there, defenses can't cheat to take away the pass. Cook demands the focus of the linebackers and to a lesser degree the safeties, and with their focus on Cook, Jefferson and Thielen and the Viking TEs can find open spots on the field. It makes a difference. If teams try to focus more on Jefferson, Cook will simply kill them, so he and AT and other Vikings receivers will get favorable matchups.

And of course, there is the third level of Justin Jefferson himself. He has to know the routes. He has to run them consistently and show awareness. He has to beat a variety of coverages, make the easy and difficult catches to gain trust and chemistry with Cousins, and do the various little things that result in completions like running effectively after the catch. Last, but not least, is his enthusiasm and desire to win. I think Texas Vike commented on enjoying watching Cousins get hyped late against the Bears. I'm actually seeing a lot of that from a variety of Vikings this year, from Bradbury and Cleveland running down the field pumping their arms after a big Cook run or Gladney or Wonnum getting jacked after making a good tackle, it seems like the Vikings are just into it this year overall. Jefferson is a part of that.

The team this year seems to WANT it. Jefferson WANTS it. Cook WANTS it. I've watched this team a long time, and while this might not be the most talented Vikings team I've ever seen, it has to rank near the top in terms of overall character that I've witnessed.

Hopefully they keep it up. Stranger things have happened than watching a team everyone (myself included) thought might be vying for the first pick in next year's draft suddenly come from out of nowhere to do something special. Would be a heck of a nice surprise to finally watch that happen to the Vikings. We've had so many crushing letdowns with this team. It's time for an inspiring letup with them (I know that's not a word, but for some reason it fit).

:govikes:
Excelent, excellent post VL!

To add onto that, I wanted to give a shout out to someone on the OL the other day and didnt get time to make the post.

I think the biggest under the radar "reason" the Vikings are on a 3 game win streak....Ezra Cleveland. You can tell the difference simply by how much longer Cousins seems to have in the pocket or at least how long he has a "clean" pocket. In the run game he has just been an animal.

Guys could blame Cousins all they wanted early in the year about taking sacks, holding the ball too long, etc. (and not saying he was always innocent) but when you have a LEGIT swinging door at RG in Dru Samia, you arent going to feel comfortable dropping back.

Put it this way, can anyone name a Vikings offensive lineman that was worse than Dru Samia in the last 10 years? As bad as guys like Clemmings, Elflein, Kalil, etc. were, they were gold compared to Samia. Samia was not only the last ranked guard in the NFL but the last ranked overall offensive player according to PFF.

And I was singing this same song and dance a few months ago when Samia was still starting and it's what has always drove me nuts with Zimmer. It's week 10 and look at the players that are really impressing....ROOKIES. Jefferson, Gladney, Cleveland, Wonnum, etc. Even Dantzler flashed some before going down. Harrison Hand has flashed at times. James Lynch who I still think is getting boned on playing time flashed. And what were these guys doing more often than not early in the year? Sitting the bench.

And Stump, not trying to call you out by any means, just going along with my point here. I remember you mentioned a few weeks ago when I was harping on Zimmer not getting these rookies in the game, that getting these rookies in the game wouldnt miraculously save this season. Well.....I'm really starting to wonder man. This team has won 3 straight divisional games, 2 being on the road and look at the players that have been performing at a high level....the ROOKIES. Granted, Cook and others have been good but all of these rookies have shown they can really make a difference.

I mean hell, since Ezra Cleveland became the starter alone we're 3-0. And pair that with Jefferson lighting the league on fire, Wonnum coming into his own, Gladney playing well, etc. I dont think 3-0 is a coincidence. What frustrated me most with Zim was not that he made his rookies sit the bench, but it's who he had out there as a starter instead. If you have an average, stop-gap type player in a role, okay. When you're starting legitimately AWFUL players ahead of some of these rookies, that's a problem. Because these awful players can not be hidden. They stick out like a sore thumb, look at Samia. Whereas someone like Dozier, IMO, can be hidden if surrounded by enough talent. Dru Samia is going to expose you and expose you bad.

So I ask again, WHY are we going week after week watching Samia practically get Cousins killed and not getting Ezra Cleveland in the game? WHY? WHY are we even bothering to start Bisi Johnson over Justin Jefferson early on when everyone and their mother knew Jefferson was already 10 times better? Hell they cant be that high on Bisi, Chad fricken Beebe is playing over him now. I still ask WHY Shamar Stephen and Jaleel Johnson are playing over James Lynch. Or hell, even over Mata'afa. James Lynch and Mata'afa have gotten the least amount of playing time when it comes to DTs....and they might be the best two on the team.

These rookies ARE making a huge difference. And I could 100% see someone like Ezra Cleveland making a difference in a 1 point loss to Seattle. Or a 1 point loss to Tennessee. So yeah I think if Zim didnt worry so much about hurting peoples feelings and playing his best players, I wouldnt doubt our record would be better than it is. He isn't playing stop gaps while the rookies get ready. He's playing legitimate duds and they were very much hampering this team early in the year.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by S197 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:13 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:03 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:45 am


Ehhh, I'd be careful what you say. On Monday night vs the Bears, Justin Jefferson had 5 targets, 5 catches and 104 yards....on THIRD down alone
And ... 29 of his 42 receptions have gone for first downs. I realize that's not a 3rd-down stat, but it tells you he's not just picking up garbage catches.

PHP has brought this up many times, and it bears repeating. We need to remember that Justin Jefferson was not a starter for the first two games of the season. Yet he's got 762 yards receiving. As for being fed, Stefon Diggs pissed and moaned all last year when he got 94 targets, which by my math is almost exactly the same per-game rate that JJ is receiving this year. Meanwhile Jefferson has had 5 or fewer targets in 6 of the Vikings' 9 games, yet hasn't said a word about getting the ball.

I can't find anything not to like about this kid, or this trade. I mean, he's playing and acting like a veteran. This trade was a huge win for us. If Buffalo fans see it as a win for them ... well, good for Buffalo fans.
Not being a starter was more ceremonial than anything though. He was a big part of the game plan against the Packers. He played more snaps than any skilled player after Thielen. He even played more snaps than Cook.

I think his relatively slow start was more likely due to being a rookie without a preseason. Maybe that sounds like splitting hairs but I think the implications of saying he wasn’t a starter is that he was riding the bench, which wasn’t really true.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:48 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:06 pm
I think the biggest under the radar "reason" the Vikings are on a 3 game win streak....Ezra Cleveland. You can tell the difference simply by how much longer Cousins seems to have in the pocket or at least how long he has a "clean" pocket. In the run game he has just been an animal.
In his latest edition of Baldy's Breakdowns, Brian Baldinger shows the second TD to Thielen against the Bears and the effect Ezra Cleveland has on the play. You have to really pay attention to see it because at the snap, Cleveland doesn't have anyone in front of him to block. So the first thing he does is step to his left and double-team the nose tackle with Bradbury. After about a count, he then COMES OFF the nose tackle, spins 180 degrees to his right, and chips at Khalil Mack, who is about to come underneath the block of Brian O'Neill. That chip on Mack gives Cousins both the time and the throwing lane he needs to fire it to Thielen for the score. As the play ends, you can see Mack's frustration at getting stymied, and it's all due to Ezra Cleveland blocking two people on the same play. THAT is stellar O-line play ... by a rookie in his third game.

Contrast that with Dru Samia on a similar play a few weeks ago. Like Cleveland, he had no one directly in front of him to block. So what does he do? He just stands there in an athletic stance, doing nothing. Meanwhile, Cousins gets sacked.

Ezra Cleveland won't get the press that Justin Jefferson gets. Offensive linemen never do, especially guards. But I can guarantee you that Gary Kubiak and Brian Denison know the value he's bringing to this offense.
Last edited by J. Kapp 11 on Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:08 pm

S197 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:13 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:03 am

And ... 29 of his 42 receptions have gone for first downs. I realize that's not a 3rd-down stat, but it tells you he's not just picking up garbage catches.

PHP has brought this up many times, and it bears repeating. We need to remember that Justin Jefferson was not a starter for the first two games of the season. Yet he's got 762 yards receiving. As for being fed, Stefon Diggs pissed and moaned all last year when he got 94 targets, which by my math is almost exactly the same per-game rate that JJ is receiving this year. Meanwhile Jefferson has had 5 or fewer targets in 6 of the Vikings' 9 games, yet hasn't said a word about getting the ball.

I can't find anything not to like about this kid, or this trade. I mean, he's playing and acting like a veteran. This trade was a huge win for us. If Buffalo fans see it as a win for them ... well, good for Buffalo fans.
Not being a starter was more ceremonial than anything though. He was a big part of the game plan against the Packers. He played more snaps than any skilled player after Thielen. He even played more snaps than Cook.

I think his relatively slow start was more likely due to being a rookie without a preseason. Maybe that sounds like splitting hairs but I think the implications of saying he wasn’t a starter is that he was riding the bench, which wasn’t really true.
He may have played a lot of snaps, but he got very few targets (only 3 each game, almost all in garbage time). As you say, that was likely due to a lack of trust from Cousins because there were no OTAs or preseason. Either way, it had the effect of him not really getting opportunities those two games. He's done the vast majority of his work starting in Week 3, with 37 of his 42 catches and almost 100 yards per game over those 7 weeks.

Every expert out there said that Justin Jefferson would never be able to replace Stefon Diggs' production right away, if ever. Well, let's look at the numbers. Digg's best season with the Vikings was the 1,130 yards he put up last year, which was the 21st-highest total in Vikings history. Meanwhile, if Jefferson matches his production from the past 7 games over the last 7 games, he'll finish the season with 1,454 yards. That would be not only a an all-time NFL rookie record, but also the second-highest total in Vikings history. Put another way, Jefferson only needs to average 52 yards per game the rest of the way to match Diggs' best output with the Vikings.

The season isn't over yet, but when it is, I think we'll be able to say that the experts were very, very wrong.
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Re: Justin Jefferson

Post by S197 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:55 pm

Watch the video about midway through the article.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/look ... erson/amp/
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