Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:34 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:06 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:42 pm

Cleveland has played a total of 3 snaps in practice at tackle in Kubiak's zone blocking scheme and that was only because he got in the wrong line during a drill in camp. Unless the Vikings want him to be the catalyst to being as bad as the Jets, I don't think he is a viable option at LT this year and might never be one.
But somehow he's now a viable option at RG? A position he's never played and also on the complete opposite side of the OL. Everyone also said Brian O'Neill wasnt ready and needed to get stronger. Brian O'Neill has done just fine. However the only reason he went in his rookie year was because of Hill getting hurt. That's the classic Zimmer way, too afraid to hurt someones feelings and bench them outright.

Either way, we have plenty of OT depth even outside of Cleveland. You could put Hill or Udoh there. You could move O'Neill to LT and put Hill or Udoh at RT. You could move O'Neill to LT and have Cleveland go to RT. We have plenty of options if we trade Reiff.

Also, the combine numbers (granted it's only the combine I know) but.....

-Same height as O'Neill
- <1" difference in arm length and hand size
-13 pounds heavier than O'Neill
-2" Longer wingspan than O'Neill
-40 yard dash- Cleveland- 4.93 O'Neill- 4.80
-20 yard split- Cleveland- 2.90 O'Neill- 2.83
-10 yard split- Cleveland- 1.73 O'Neill- 1.70
-Bench press- Cleveland- 30 reps O'Neill- 22 reps
-Vertical- Cleveland- 30" O'Neill- 29.5"
-Broad jump- Cleveland- 111" O'Neill- 107"
-20 yard shuttle- Cleveland- 4.46 O'Neill- 4.50
-3 cone- Cleveland- 7.26 O'Neill- 7.14

This is every major category at the combine and the numbers are nearly identical across the board. I said the second Cleveland was drafted that he is a clone to O'Neill. This guy is an offensive tackle. Whether it's the right side or left side, he needs to be at tackle IMO and what better time to do it than now. Let him get experience there heading into next year. Why they have him at RG is beyond me. I dont think this staff truly believes that he is a "future guard". I think they simply knew they had a massive problem at both guard spots and hope he would fix it.
The Vikings drafted him to play guard or he starts out playing tackle in practice day 1. That is the only logical explanation for them playing him at guard before seeing him for one minute in training camp.

Zimmer benched Hodges almost immediately in the 2015 season to put in Kendricks as a rookie. He started Barr as a rookie from day 1 as well. He will play a rookie if they are ready on defense at least.

Offensively, I am not sure Zimmer makes those decisions or if he leaves it to his OC discretion. He obviously has the final say, but he is likely going with what his OC recommends. Based on how poorly Cleveland played at guard, his OC was right to not start Cleveland as a rookie. Plus, Reiff is playing really well. So that leaves Jefferson not starting over a much lesser WR, but getting more snaps than that starter from week 1. Stupid Zimmer.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:43 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:34 am

The Vikings drafted him to play guard or he starts out playing tackle in practice day 1. That is the only logical explanation for them playing him at guard before seeing him for one minute in training camp.
Yeah that's my point, they drafted him to play guard because they realized that's where their massive holes are. It doesnt mean it was the right decision. They didnt bother trying him at tackle because we already had two that were now Zim's guys and it didnt create too much change. Because why would we want to change anything on this OL?

Zimmer benched Hodges almost immediately in the 2015 season to put in Kendricks as a rookie. He started Barr as a rookie from day 1 as well. He will play a rookie if they are ready on defense at least.

Offensively, I am not sure Zimmer makes those decisions or if he leaves it to his OC discretion. He obviously has the final say, but he is likely going with what his OC recommends. Based on how poorly Cleveland played at guard, his OC was right to not start Cleveland as a rookie. Plus, Reiff is playing really well. So that leaves Jefferson not starting over a much lesser WR, but getting more snaps than that starter from week 1. Stupid Zimmer.
[/quote]

I've said this before that Zim will start rookies only when he is forced to for the most part(ex- Gladney and Dantzler, Barr, O'Neill, Bradbury, etc).

It took Rashod Hill getting hurt for Brian O'Neill to come in the game. Then he went BACK to the bench in the Rams game before he finally became a full time starter in week 6. And the guy went on to not allow a single sack his entire rookie year AND in 2019 all the way up until the SF playoff game. But that guy wasnt ready to play prior to that? Or he played so bad that he had to go back to the bench?

Justin Jefferson takes over as full time starter in week 3 and lights the league on fire and was up to 5th in the NFL in receiving yards. He's now 9th after a bye week and the only player in front of him that has already had his bye week is Tyler Lockett and he's only ahead by 5 yards. Please tell me how a guy can light the league on fire in week 3 and beyond but not be ready to start weeks 1-2. Please tell me how guys like Lamb, Jeudy, Reagor, Ruggs, etc. are all ready but Jefferson wasnt. He went from playing 50% of the game vs. the Colts (a team we were getting killed by and needed to pass all game) to starting the following week and going off for 175 and 1 TD against the undefeated Titans. I'm sorry but a guy isnt just not ready one week and 100% ready the following week. You are either ready to play or you're not.

How long is Zim going to sit there and watch our plodder DT's continue to not lay a finger on an opposing QB? We're now up to 910 snaps between Johnson, Stephen, Holmes, Mata'afa and Watts. NINE HUNDRED TEN SNAPS without a single sack from any of them. James Lynch goes in for 8 snaps in his first career game vs Seattle and immediately generated a pressure and got a sack.

Sure Cleveland didnt have the greatest game at guard but again, #1 its a completely different position for him compared to what he's ever done before and #2, he was STILL better than Samia. Which sure, isnt saying much but it is saying, why do you have a much worse player starting over a better player and better overall athlete?

That's coaching 101 and this has always been a problem with Zim. He has that old school mentality of "rookies have to earn their spot and they arent ready" when the reality is, they are ready, you're just so stuck in your ways that you refuse to switch anything up. No less please tell me what Dru Samia did to "earn" his spot? Or Bisi Johnson? What have the scrub DTs done to earn their spots? I'll tell you.....nothing.

I'm not saying Zim should throw a rookie on the field day 1 and never pull him out of the game. I also understand that if guys like Adam Thielen and Stefon Diggs are playing over Justin Jefferson, then yeah I get why he is sitting. But the guys you're playing over guys like Jefferson, Cleveland and Lynch arent just bad, they are TERRIBLE. But now that Jefferson is the man, Bisi is just an afterthought. Hell Chad Beebe is even playing over him. But he was the plugged in #2 to start the year? Weird.

-It shouldnt have taken you to get to 0-2 before you realized Cousins was force-feeding Thielen because the rest of his WRs were awful.
-It shouldnt take you until week 8 and beyond to realize that you dont have a single DT outside of James Lynch that has even breathed on a QB.
-It shouldnt take you FOUR weeks to realize that Dru Samia is not only the worst player on your OL, or on your team, but the worst graded starting offensive player in the entire NFL. Oh wait, thats right, the only reason Samia was benched was because he got "hurt". Just like Rashod Hill did in 2018 and in comes Brian O'Neill

Never did I say this was going to turn the season around if he played these guys full time, but clearly they are the better players than what is playing over them. So I'll say it once again, play your damn best players. Let these guys get their feet wet and get valuable experience heading into next year.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:38 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:43 am

I've said this before that Zim will start rookies only when he is forced to for the most part(ex- Gladney and Dantzler, Barr, O'Neill, Bradbury, etc).

It took Rashod Hill getting hurt for Brian O'Neill to come in the game. Then he went BACK to the bench in the Rams game before he finally became a full time starter in week 6. And the guy went on to not allow a single sack his entire rookie year AND in 2019 all the way up until the SF playoff game. But that guy wasnt ready to play prior to that? Or he played so bad that he had to go back to the bench?

Justin Jefferson takes over as full time starter in week 3 and lights the league on fire and was up to 5th in the NFL in receiving yards. He's now 9th after a bye week and the only player in front of him that has already had his bye week is Tyler Lockett and he's only ahead by 5 yards. Please tell me how a guy can light the league on fire in week 3 and beyond but not be ready to start weeks 1-2. Please tell me how guys like Lamb, Jeudy, Reagor, Ruggs, etc. are all ready but Jefferson wasnt. He went from playing 50% of the game vs. the Colts (a team we were getting killed by and needed to pass all game) to starting the following week and going off for 175 and 1 TD against the undefeated Titans. I'm sorry but a guy isnt just not ready one week and 100% ready the following week. You are either ready to play or you're not.

How long is Zim going to sit there and watch our plodder DT's continue to not lay a finger on an opposing QB? We're now up to 910 snaps between Johnson, Stephen, Holmes, Mata'afa and Watts. NINE HUNDRED TEN SNAPS without a single sack from any of them. James Lynch goes in for 8 snaps in his first career game vs Seattle and immediately generated a pressure and got a sack.

Sure Cleveland didnt have the greatest game at guard but again, #1 its a completely different position for him compared to what he's ever done before and #2, he was STILL better than Samia. Which sure, isnt saying much but it is saying, why do you have a much worse player starting over a better player and better overall athlete?

That's coaching 101 and this has always been a problem with Zim. He has that old school mentality of "rookies have to earn their spot and they arent ready" when the reality is, they are ready, you're just so stuck in your ways that you refuse to switch anything up. No less please tell me what Dru Samia did to "earn" his spot? Or Bisi Johnson? What have the scrub DTs done to earn their spots? I'll tell you.....nothing.

I'm not saying Zim should throw a rookie on the field day 1 and never pull him out of the game. I also understand that if guys like Adam Thielen and Stefon Diggs are playing over Justin Jefferson, then yeah I get why he is sitting. But the guys you're playing over guys like Jefferson, Cleveland and Lynch arent just bad, they are TERRIBLE. But now that Jefferson is the man, Bisi is just an afterthought. Hell Chad Beebe is even playing over him. But he was the plugged in #2 to start the year? Weird.

-It shouldnt have taken you to get to 0-2 before you realized Cousins was force-feeding Thielen because the rest of his WRs were awful.
-It shouldnt take you until week 8 and beyond to realize that you dont have a single DT outside of James Lynch that has even breathed on a QB.
-It shouldnt take you FOUR weeks to realize that Dru Samia is not only the worst player on your OL, or on your team, but the worst graded starting offensive player in the entire NFL. Oh wait, thats right, the only reason Samia was benched was because he got "hurt". Just like Rashod Hill did in 2018 and in comes Brian O'Neill

Never did I say this was going to turn the season around if he played these guys full time, but clearly they are the better players than what is playing over them. So I'll say it once again, play your damn best players. Let these guys get their feet wet and get valuable experience heading into next year.
When I found out Johnson was starting over Jefferson, I was upset too. I thought it was another Diggs situation where Diggs would languish on the bench for 2 games before injuries forced the Vikings to start him. Then I looked at the number of snaps JJ played compared to Johnson and realized that even though Johnson started, JJ was still getting more snaps on passing downs than him. 45 to 43 in those first two games. It had no affect on the outcome of those games and JJ wasn't getting thrown too even though he was on the field quite a bit.

I would like to see Lynch play, but he probably is a downgrade over the guys ahead of him. Rookie interior linemen just don't play well in their first season, and that is pretty much true across the NFL. You know who had the 4th most sacks among interior rookie linemen last year? Watts. That is how bad most rookie DTs are.

Cleveland got in and sucked just as bad as Samia. He wasn't better, he just felt better because there is still hope for him.

Avoiding starting rookies is not the problem with this team. Starting rookies is, at least on defense. Look around the NFL at defensive rookies and find me guys who are making a big impact. There are like 5 total, our guy Winfield being one.

That number will grow as the season progresses and these players develop and hopefully some of those rookies who develop are on the Vikings.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:21 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:38 pm

When I found out Johnson was starting over Jefferson, I was upset too. I thought it was another Diggs situation where Diggs would languish on the bench for 2 games before injuries forced the Vikings to start him. Then I looked at the number of snaps JJ played compared to Johnson and realized that even though Johnson started, JJ was still getting more snaps on passing downs than him. 45 to 43 in those first two games. It had no affect on the outcome of those games and JJ wasn't getting thrown too even though he was on the field quite a bit.
Oh I know I saw the snap counts. However look at how many snaps a game Bisi is getting now. Since Jefferson took over, he's played 5, 11, 8 and 11. In the first two weeks he was playing 33 and 42. Like does it really take a rocket scientist to realize Bisi isnt your answer and even in practice Jefferson is blowing him out of the water. I kept seeing "Jefferson looks the part of a first round pick in camp". Does that mean Bisi looked like a top five 1st round pick in camp also? Because I still dont understand why he got the green light and Jefferson didnt.

I swear this exact scenario always makes me wonder about Treadwell. I mean granted, we unveiled Thielen because of it but going into 2016, everyone pretty much thought the same thing. "Okay, we know we have Diggs, I see Thielen is starting with him, that will last a few weeks and they will get Treadwell in there for the rest of the year". Thielen ended up playing well from the start and never looked back. So it made it that much more difficult for Treadwell to ever see the field. And I think his confidence quickly started to fade as his career went on. I have a hard time believing that the best WR in college football that year who played against top competition ended up being that terrible in the NFL.
I would like to see Lynch play, but he probably is a downgrade over the guys ahead of him. Rookie interior linemen just don't play well in their first season, and that is pretty much true across the NFL. You know who had the 4th most sacks among interior rookie linemen last year? Watts. That is how bad most rookie DTs are.
But my question is, in a season like this, what good are you getting out of consistently playing some of these DTs? The fact that we are 22nd in run defense and they havent breathed on a QB, what is that doing for us? When you have a guy come in for such a limited amount of snaps and he immediately makes an impact, wouldnt that be a sign he should be getting more playing time? I would say yes.

Also PFF grades so far this year:
James Lynch - 60.9
Shamar Stephen- 65.1
Jaleel Johnson- 45.2
Armon Watts- 50.1
Hercules Mata'afa- 44.8
Jalyn Holmes- 53.3

According to PFF, James Lynch is our 2nd best DT right now.....and he's played 24 total snaps on the year. That is a problem. No less he has just played in his first NFL game.
Cleveland got in and sucked just as bad as Samia. He wasn't better, he just felt better because there is still hope for him.
That is simply false. NOBODY sucks as bad as Samia I can tell you that. Cleveland played in not only his first career NFL game and had to face Grady Jarrett but also, started at RG for the first time in his life.

According to PFF:

Cleveland grades at a 43.8 in his FIRST NFL game at guard. Samia has graded out as a 33.3 so far this YEAR. Again, by no means is a 43.8 good, but yes he was indeed better than Samia.

Avoiding starting rookies is not the problem with this team. Starting rookies is, at least on defense. Look around the NFL at
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:10 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:21 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:38 pm

When I found out Johnson was starting over Jefferson, I was upset too. I thought it was another Diggs situation where Diggs would languish on the bench for 2 games before injuries forced the Vikings to start him. Then I looked at the number of snaps JJ played compared to Johnson and realized that even though Johnson started, JJ was still getting more snaps on passing downs than him. 45 to 43 in those first two games. It had no affect on the outcome of those games and JJ wasn't getting thrown too even though he was on the field quite a bit.
Oh I know I saw the snap counts. However look at how many snaps a game Bisi is getting now. Since Jefferson took over, he's played 5, 11, 8 and 11. In the first two weeks he was playing 33 and 42. Like does it really take a rocket scientist to realize Bisi isnt your answer and even in practice Jefferson is blowing him out of the water. I kept seeing "Jefferson looks the part of a first round pick in camp". Does that mean Bisi looked like a top five 1st round pick in camp also? Because I still dont understand why he got the green light and Jefferson didnt.

I swear this exact scenario always makes me wonder about Treadwell. I mean granted, we unveiled Thielen because of it but going into 2016, everyone pretty much thought the same thing. "Okay, we know we have Diggs, I see Thielen is starting with him, that will last a few weeks and they will get Treadwell in there for the rest of the year". Thielen ended up playing well from the start and never looked back. So it made it that much more difficult for Treadwell to ever see the field. And I think his confidence quickly started to fade as his career went on. I have a hard time believing that the best WR in college football that year who played against top competition ended up being that terrible in the NFL.
I would like to see Lynch play, but he probably is a downgrade over the guys ahead of him. Rookie interior linemen just don't play well in their first season, and that is pretty much true across the NFL. You know who had the 4th most sacks among interior rookie linemen last year? Watts. That is how bad most rookie DTs are.
But my question is, in a season like this, what good are you getting out of consistently playing some of these DTs? The fact that we are 22nd in run defense and they havent breathed on a QB, what is that doing for us? When you have a guy come in for such a limited amount of snaps and he immediately makes an impact, wouldnt that be a sign he should be getting more playing time? I would say yes.

Also PFF grades so far this year:
James Lynch - 60.9
Shamar Stephen- 65.1
Jaleel Johnson- 45.2
Armon Watts- 50.1
Hercules Mata'afa- 44.8
Jalyn Holmes- 53.3

According to PFF, James Lynch is our 2nd best DT right now.....and he's played 24 total snaps on the year. That is a problem. No less he has just played in his first NFL game.
Cleveland got in and sucked just as bad as Samia. He wasn't better, he just felt better because there is still hope for him.
That is simply false. NOBODY sucks as bad as Samia I can tell you that. Cleveland played in not only his first career NFL game and had to face Grady Jarrett but also, started at RG for the first time in his life.

According to PFF:

Cleveland grades at a 43.8 in his FIRST NFL game at guard. Samia has graded out as a 33.3 so far this YEAR. Again, by no means is a 43.8 good, but yes he was indeed better than Samia.

Avoiding starting rookies is not the problem with this team. Starting rookies is, at least on defense. Look around the NFL at
Samia's average pressures given up per game: 3.5
Sacks: .75
Hits: 1

His first game's pressures: 5
Sacks: 1
Hits: 1

Elf's 1 game # of pressures: 5
Sacks:1
Hits:2

Cleveland's 1 game # of pressures: 5
Sacks:1
Hits: 3

Every RG we have trotted out this season has had the same negative impact on the game. If you want to hang your hat on a PFF grade, Elf's grade was 16.2 points higher than Cleveland's.

Lynch has 21 snaps and his pff grade on such a small sample size is meaningless. It is fine that you think he has promise, but guaranteeing anything about his success, when so few DTs are capable of playing well as rookies, is going overboard.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:28 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:10 pm

Samia's average pressures given up per game: 3.5
Sacks: .75
Hits: 1

His first game's pressures: 5
Sacks: 1
Hits: 1

Elf's 1 game # of pressures: 5
Sacks:1
Hits:2

Cleveland's 1 game # of pressures: 5
Sacks:1
Hits: 3

Every RG we have trotted out this season has had the same negative impact on the game. If you want to hang your hat on a PFF grade, Elf's grade was 16.2 points higher than Cleveland's.
You're talking about Lynch's small sample size but then trying to compare Cleveland to two players that are veterans and have had much more playing time. That was his first ever game at RG. Ever. Regardless, I dont get why they dont have him at LT and send Reiff packing at this point. Keeping Reiff does nothing for the future of this team. Getting Cleveland in the game does because it gives this staff and GM the opportunity to evaluate him. But at absolute worst, Cleveland needs to be in the game at either guard spot or either tackle spot and move O'Neill if need be.
Lynch has 21 snaps and his pff grade on such a small sample size is meaningless. It is fine that you think he has promise, but guaranteeing anything about his success, when so few DTs are capable of playing well as rookies, is going overboard.
What did I guarantee about Lynch? Sure it's a small sample size but when he's showing flashes in that sample size and your current tackles are literally doing nothing but taking up space, whats the hold up?

If Cleveland "showed flashes" in his small sample size would you sit there and say he shouldnt be in or putting him in isnt worth it?

And saying that few DTs are capable of playing well as rookies is a weak argument if you ask me. So are we suppose to go off the "history" of rookie DTs and not play him because of it? No you dont evaluate like that. Bottom line is, if he's showing flashes and playing well when in the game, you find a way to get him on the field much more. ESPECIALLY when the guys ahead of him are horrid.

And thats the thing, I feel like you're missing my point in the sense that the players starting or getting significant playing time over these rookies are legit HORRIBLE. Not just bad, downright terrible. Samia is the lowest graded offensive player in the NFL, our DTs are horrible and couldnt touch a QB if they got a free rush at them. The Bisi Johnson/Jefferson situation would be like starting Jarius Wright over Randy Moss. In other words, starting a below average possession WR over an absolute game changer.

I mean James Lynch had 13.5 sacks his final year at Baylor. I'm pretty sure thats about as many as Jaleel Johnson and Shamar Stephen had in their college and NFL careers combined. Oh and to add onto that, James Lynch led ALL of college football in QB pressures last year with 70. That's more than Chase Young, Gross-Matos, etc. This dude is simply good at rushing the passer and I know that it's not all about rushing the passer but we have NOBODY that can rush the passer right now. This guy needs to be in the game much more often than he is.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:20 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:28 am

I mean James Lynch had 13.5 sacks his final year at Baylor. I'm pretty sure thats about as many as Jaleel Johnson and Shamar Stephen had in their college and NFL careers combined. Oh and to add onto that, James Lynch led ALL of college football in QB pressures last year with 70. That's more than Chase Young, Gross-Matos, etc. This dude is simply good at rushing the passer and I know that it's not all about rushing the passer but we have NOBODY that can rush the passer right now. This guy needs to be in the game much more often than he is.
I final agree with you. Friends again. LMAO
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:42 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:20 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:28 am

I mean James Lynch had 13.5 sacks his final year at Baylor. I'm pretty sure thats about as many as Jaleel Johnson and Shamar Stephen had in their college and NFL careers combined. Oh and to add onto that, James Lynch led ALL of college football in QB pressures last year with 70. That's more than Chase Young, Gross-Matos, etc. This dude is simply good at rushing the passer and I know that it's not all about rushing the passer but we have NOBODY that can rush the passer right now. This guy needs to be in the game much more often than he is.
I final agree with you. Friends again. LMAO
I agree with this paragraph too. It makes sense to play young guys over guys with no future on the team in a season where you have no shot at winning anything and I think going forward we will see more of Lynch, Wonnum and Dye. It just isn't a knock on Zimmer that those guys have gotten very little playing time while there was still the sliver of hope this season wasn't a lost cause.

If you really want to get upset about something Zimmer has stubbornly stuck too, look at what happened last year with Sendejo. Cut the only safety depth that was under contract in the upcoming year in Epps, to replace him with a pile of turds that "knew his system". Meanwhile Epps has filled in well for the Eagles when called upon and Sendejo is graded 63 out of 64 qualified safeties by PFF.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:05 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:20 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:28 am

I mean James Lynch had 13.5 sacks his final year at Baylor. I'm pretty sure thats about as many as Jaleel Johnson and Shamar Stephen had in their college and NFL careers combined. Oh and to add onto that, James Lynch led ALL of college football in QB pressures last year with 70. That's more than Chase Young, Gross-Matos, etc. This dude is simply good at rushing the passer and I know that it's not all about rushing the passer but we have NOBODY that can rush the passer right now. This guy needs to be in the game much more often than he is.
I final agree with you. Friends again. LMAO
:lol: :lol: Boom!
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:12 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:42 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:20 pm


I final agree with you. Friends again. LMAO
I agree with this paragraph too. It makes sense to play young guys over guys with no future on the team in a season where you have no shot at winning anything and I think going forward we will see more of Lynch, Wonnum and Dye. It just isn't a knock on Zimmer that those guys have gotten very little playing time while there was still the sliver of hope this season wasn't a lost cause.

If you really want to get upset about something Zimmer has stubbornly stuck too, look at what happened last year with Sendejo. Cut the only safety depth that was under contract in the upcoming year in Epps, to replace him with a pile of turds that "knew his system". Meanwhile Epps has filled in well for the Eagles when called upon and Sendejo is graded 63 out of 64 qualified safeties by PFF.
Wow I didnt even know Epps was on a team. But yeah, that's exactly it and that's my problem with him. Sendejo was one of "his guys" and "knew the system". It's almost like he consistently choosing these veterans no matter how bad they are simply out of assumption. It's like he assumes, "well this guy is a rookie, my system is too complicated, no way he can play more than a few snaps a game". Like these guys are FOOTBALL players. They dont need to be rocket scientists. If they can make plays on the football field, that's all that matters. Will they make rookie mistakes, yeah everyone does. But I'd rather there be multiple big plays from a rookie with a few rookie mistakes than to watch guys like Dru Samia, Shamar Stephen, Jaleel Johnson and Bisi Johnson play football anymore. Maybe those guys know where to "be" all the time but if they suck (which they do) they shouldnt be playing over rookies with 10x the potential.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by S197 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:20 pm

Last year it was Hercules and Watts that were these amazing pass rushers sitting on the bench. Samia was getting the short end of the stick.

Anyone remember Brandel? He was supposed to be another great Rick pick and the guy isn't even on the team. Tajae Sharpe was a great FA pickup.

It's just a constant carousel of start the next guy up with this sort of amnesia that we go down this road again and again. Coaching is an issue but so is talent acquisition. Lynch had one nice play. So did Mike Hughes.

I'm sure as the season becomes more of a lost cause these guys will get more looks but the odds they blow away their teammates is relatively low except for perhaps Cleveland.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by S197 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:20 pm

Last year it was Hercules and Watts that were these amazing pass rushers sitting on the bench. Samia was getting the short end of the stick.

Anyone remember Brandel? He was supposed to be another great Rick pick and the guy isn't even on the team. Tajae Sharpe was a great FA pickup.

It's just a constant carousel of start the next guy up with this sort of amnesia that we go down this road again and again. Coaching is an issue but so is talent acquisition. Lynch had one nice play. So did Mike Hughes.

I'm sure as the season becomes more of a lost cause these guys will get more looks but the odds they blow away their teammates is relatively low except for perhaps Cleveland.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:53 am

S197 wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:20 pm
Last year it was Hercules and Watts that were these amazing pass rushers sitting on the bench. Samia was getting the short end of the stick.

Anyone remember Brandel? He was supposed to be another great Rick pick and the guy isn't even on the team. Tajae Sharpe was a great FA pickup.

It's just a constant carousel of start the next guy up with this sort of amnesia that we go down this road again and again. Coaching is an issue but so is talent acquisition. Lynch had one nice play. So did Mike Hughes.

I'm sure as the season becomes more of a lost cause these guys will get more looks but the odds they blow away their teammates is relatively low except for perhaps Cleveland.
To be honest, I think Mata'afa is in Zimmers dog house after the tweet he put up. He's only played like 18 snaps this year. I remember Blake Brandel but I dont remember anyone saying it was a great pick by Spielman. As for Sharpe, yeah I did like the pickup and I still dont understand why he isnt playing and they are still trying to make Chad Beebe into the next Julian Edelman. I mean Thielen and Jefferson both can play the slot at any point and at a high level. Why do we need another slot WR? I dont care what anyone says including this coaching staff that seems to struggle to evaluate talent and who should be playing....Tajae Sharpe is a much better WR than both Chad Beebe and Bisi Johnson. It's just yet another guy that hasnt really been given a chance. Trust me, if he plays as much as Beebe or Johnson have, he outproduces both of them easily. But guess what, Johnson and Beebe "know where to be and know this scheme" so they get the nod.

I dont think it's talent acquisition at all. Think about what this defense looked like heading into the season....

DE- Hunter
DE- Ngakoue/Odenigbo
1 tech- Pierce
3 tech- ???
SLB- Barr
MLB- Kendricks
WLB- Gedeon/Wilson
CB-Hughes, Hill, Gladney, Dantzler, Hand
S- Smith, Harris

Where is there a lack of talent? 3 tech? CB? Even though when you lose all 3 starters from the previous season, you can only bring in so much to fill in those roles. We took a CB in the 1st, 3rd and 5th with Hughes and Hill on the roster. I dont think anyone is here saying Gladney and Dantzler suck and we bad picks, they are just young and are being asked to cover for a long time. Outside of that, I would say going into the year I'd feel pretty comfortable with this defense and know that it will have room to grow.

You gotta think, we've lost pretty much every day 1 starter on this defense outside of Kendricks, Harris and Smith. I guess you could consider Odenigbo. That's the definition of a depleted defense.

However, what bothers me, is there are MANY guys (especially at DT) that have been given plenty of chances to show something over the years and they've shown nothing. Particularly Stephen and Johnson. Holmes is another one that's had some chances and will have another huge chance after getting rid of Ngakoue. So my question is, WHY do we continue to play some of these guys when you KNOW they have maxed out their ceiling?? Again, especially Johnson and Stephen. WHY? Lynch hasnt even been able to scratch the surface yet, we are 1-5 and this team is practically toast this season.

I dont care if Lynch had 1 good play or not. All I know is, Stephen and Johnson have had ZERO good plays and they are full time starters. Lynch had 1 good play in 8 snaps. At this point, who cares if Lynch gets the nod and gets washed out every play and sucks. We arent going anywhere anyways. If that's the case, go back to Johnson or Stephen. But hell at least give the guy more of an opportunity than 8 meaningful snaps.

Same goes for Cleveland. The sad thing is, Cleveland is going right back to the bench now that Elflein is back. And if Elflein gets hurt, I'm sure they will go right back to Samia. As Cleveland continues to rot on the bench backing up a position he's never played before. But here we are, continuing to keep Riley Reiff, who I'm certain wont get traded before the deadline. Hell I'd even be excited to see Oli Udoh somewhere along the OL at this point. But we continue to trot out the same guys over and over and continue to watch the same caliber of play over and over.

This isnt a "we're lacking talent" thing. This is a coaching thing. Coming into this year, this team was still PLENTY talented enough to AT LEAST contend. The loss of key players and overall inconsistencies as a team, contention is out the door. So why are we just sitting here continuing to play our veteran depth that have zero future with this team. As a coach you have to find the young guys that DO have a future with this team. Cleveland and Lynch are just two of them you need to at least try right now.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:22 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:53 am
S197 wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:20 pm
Last year it was Hercules and Watts that were these amazing pass rushers sitting on the bench. Samia was getting the short end of the stick.

Anyone remember Brandel? He was supposed to be another great Rick pick and the guy isn't even on the team. Tajae Sharpe was a great FA pickup.

It's just a constant carousel of start the next guy up with this sort of amnesia that we go down this road again and again. Coaching is an issue but so is talent acquisition. Lynch had one nice play. So did Mike Hughes.

I'm sure as the season becomes more of a lost cause these guys will get more looks but the odds they blow away their teammates is relatively low except for perhaps Cleveland.
To be honest, I think Mata'afa is in Zimmers dog house after the tweet he put up. He's only played like 18 snaps this year. I remember Blake Brandel but I dont remember anyone saying it was a great pick by Spielman. As for Sharpe, yeah I did like the pickup and I still dont understand why he isnt playing and they are still trying to make Chad Beebe into the next Julian Edelman. I mean Thielen and Jefferson both can play the slot at any point and at a high level. Why do we need another slot WR? I dont care what anyone says including this coaching staff that seems to struggle to evaluate talent and who should be playing....Tajae Sharpe is a much better WR than both Chad Beebe and Bisi Johnson. It's just yet another guy that hasnt really been given a chance. Trust me, if he plays as much as Beebe or Johnson have, he outproduces both of them easily. But guess what, Johnson and Beebe "know where to be and know this scheme" so they get the nod.

I dont think it's talent acquisition at all. Think about what this defense looked like heading into the season....

DE- Hunter
DE- Ngakoue/Odenigbo
1 tech- Pierce
3 tech- ???
SLB- Barr
MLB- Kendricks
WLB- Gedeon/Wilson
CB-Hughes, Hill, Gladney, Dantzler, Hand
S- Smith, Harris

Where is there a lack of talent? 3 tech? CB? Even though when you lose all 3 starters from the previous season, you can only bring in so much to fill in those roles. We took a CB in the 1st, 3rd and 5th with Hughes and Hill on the roster. I dont think anyone is here saying Gladney and Dantzler suck and we bad picks, they are just young and are being asked to cover for a long time. Outside of that, I would say going into the year I'd feel pretty comfortable with this defense and know that it will have room to grow.

You gotta think, we've lost pretty much every day 1 starter on this defense outside of Kendricks, Harris and Smith. I guess you could consider Odenigbo. That's the definition of a depleted defense.

However, what bothers me, is there are MANY guys (especially at DT) that have been given plenty of chances to show something over the years and they've shown nothing. Particularly Stephen and Johnson. Holmes is another one that's had some chances and will have another huge chance after getting rid of Ngakoue. So my question is, WHY do we continue to play some of these guys when you KNOW they have maxed out their ceiling?? Again, especially Johnson and Stephen. WHY? Lynch hasnt even been able to scratch the surface yet, we are 1-5 and this team is practically toast this season.

I dont care if Lynch had 1 good play or not. All I know is, Stephen and Johnson have had ZERO good plays and they are full time starters. Lynch had 1 good play in 8 snaps. At this point, who cares if Lynch gets the nod and gets washed out every play and sucks. We arent going anywhere anyways. If that's the case, go back to Johnson or Stephen. But hell at least give the guy more of an opportunity than 8 meaningful snaps.

Same goes for Cleveland. The sad thing is, Cleveland is going right back to the bench now that Elflein is back. And if Elflein gets hurt, I'm sure they will go right back to Samia. As Cleveland continues to rot on the bench backing up a position he's never played before. But here we are, continuing to keep Riley Reiff, who I'm certain wont get traded before the deadline. Hell I'd even be excited to see Oli Udoh somewhere along the OL at this point. But we continue to trot out the same guys over and over and continue to watch the same caliber of play over and over.

This isnt a "we're lacking talent" thing. This is a coaching thing. Coming into this year, this team was still PLENTY talented enough to AT LEAST contend. The loss of key players and overall inconsistencies as a team, contention is out the door. So why are we just sitting here continuing to play our veteran depth that have zero future with this team. As a coach you have to find the young guys that DO have a future with this team. Cleveland and Lynch are just two of them you need to at least try right now.
The defense would be better with Hunter, Barr and Pierce, but with a terrible secondary it was going to be a below average defense. Offensively, we are not really seeing issues because of Covid or injuries, but we have a below offense anyway.

With 0 injuries, this team is below average on defense and offense talentwise (not terrible like they are now), yet we are right up against the cap this year and over the cap next year with no 2nd round pick.

Knowing that we likely have to cut our starting LT and SAM to get under the cap next year while also not being about to re-sign our starting safety and maybe not even our starting DE if Odenigbo plays well (I would think they would prioritize this and get it done if he is worth keeping), and do not have a 2nd round pick to fill the multiple holes this 3-5 team will have, do you think Rick has done a good job? Do you think this team will compete for anything next year or has our window to win it all passed?
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by psjordan » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:14 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:53 am
This isnt a "we're lacking talent" thing. This is a coaching thing.
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:22 am
... do you think Rick has done a good job? Do you think this team will compete for anything next year or has our window to win it all passed?
I think the talent vs. coaching analysis is a sliding scale, and my scale definitely leans PHP's way. I think both coaching staff and Rick have had hits and misses, but overall I see a lot more failures to develop players on the field than complete misses (like QB) by the front office. And while I don't believe it's true, one could make an argument that the staff has not managed to make Cousins a better QB than when he got here.

Personally I don't think this team "competes for anything" meaningful next year, and I don't think I've seen an open window to "win it all" for several years. We are years away from that talk, IMO.

My spidey sense says the Wilfs will want to make changes, but the "good" pool of candidates is not going to be interested in hooking wagon to Cousins for a year. So will the Wilfs wait it out or get someone just happy to be there? My guess is they wait it out, and when Cousins expires so do Zim and Rick. Just my guess.
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