Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by YikesVikes » Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:01 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:55 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:03 pm

He has missed one game and without him the rest of the season we would be the Jets. Wait a minute, you might be onto something here.
He missed part of the Seattle game and one full game.

This was the second time he's suffered a non-contact injury that forced him to leave a game and miss time.

There is a pattern here and I know you can see it as well as everybody else.
A football player got hurt is the only pattern. The dude pulled a groin. Not a big deal.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by VikingLord » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:18 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:01 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:55 am


He missed part of the Seattle game and one full game.

This was the second time he's suffered a non-contact injury that forced him to leave a game and miss time.

There is a pattern here and I know you can see it as well as everybody else.
A football player got hurt is the only pattern. The dude pulled a groin. Not a big deal.
A groin injury for a cutback RB like Cook is a big deal.

I guess we'll see how big a deal the decision to extend Cook really was. Only time will tell, but I suspect that before his extension runs out, nobody will be arguing about whether an injury pattern exists with Cook.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by fiestavike » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:26 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:51 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:21 pm
This is what I've been saying the since the second Ngakoue was traded. The first thing that came to my mind was "Reiff!" I have zero idea why they would even bother holding onto him right now. Put Cleveland at LT, let him get 10 games of experience under his belt and let him learn this year. By the time we turn this around Reiff will be gone regardless. Let's get what we can for him and as you point out, his trade value will never get higher than it is right now.
That's probably the next shoe to drop...

Well, that and Cousins announcing he's decided to hold out for the final 2.5 seasons of his deal because he feels he's now underpaid...
It was a rough offseasons for Rick Spielman. Extending Kirk, Ngakoue trade, big money to a RB, and the stunt he pulled with Harris have all been disastrous. Harris is nothing special and never was. Should have struck while the iron was hot and got a pick for him. As crazy as it sounds, trading Ngakoue to the Ravens was now the best move he has made this year if only to minimize the damage of the initial decision.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:42 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:21 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:47 am

Yet another reason I continually ask myself why I frequent this board. It's like a damn drug addiction.

Stats and PFF are fine when they suit an argument, but when they don't, then it's back to unsubstantiated opinions. How about pressures? Third-fewest among all tackles. That has nothing to do with his guards. And Reiff has always been a good run blocker. Just go to the Seattle game, when none of us understood why we ran Mattison up the middle on 4th and 1 when the left side had been dominating.

Meanwhile, try READING something besides the uninformed narratives of dudes on this board. See what NFL analysts are saying. See what people who know the insides of NFL football are saying. The terms most used for Riley Reiff are "renaissance," "best season of his career" and "resurgence."

He's having a great season, no matter what you say. And honestly, for that reason, he probably has MORE trade value than at any time in his career. So why not dangle him out there to see what we can get? I mean, if we're gonna tank, let's do it right.
This is what I've been saying the since the second Ngakoue was traded. The first thing that came to my mind was "Reiff!" I have zero idea why they would even bother holding onto him right now. Put Cleveland at LT, let him get 10 games of experience under his belt and let him learn this year. By the time we turn this around Reiff will be gone regardless. Let's get what we can for him and as you point out, his trade value will never get higher than it is right now.
Cleveland has played a total of 3 snaps in practice at tackle in Kubiak's zone blocking scheme and that was only because he got in the wrong line during a drill in camp. Unless the Vikings want him to be the catalyst to being as bad as the Jets, I don't think he is a viable option at LT this year and might never be one.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:48 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:26 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:51 pm


That's probably the next shoe to drop...

Well, that and Cousins announcing he's decided to hold out for the final 2.5 seasons of his deal because he feels he's now underpaid...
It was a rough offseasons for Rick Spielman. Extending Kirk, Ngakoue trade, big money to a RB, and the stunt he pulled with Harris have all been disastrous. Harris is nothing special and never was. Should have struck while the iron was hot and got a pick for him. As crazy as it sounds, trading Ngakoue to the Ravens was now the best move he has made this year if only to minimize the damage of the initial decision.
Correct. There was no chance Ngakoue, a guy who clearly wants to play on a winning team, would have considered staying with the Vikings this off season. We got what we could for him and now Wonnum, a guy who will actually be on the roster next season, will get a chance for more playing time.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by YikesVikes » Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:06 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:48 pm
fiestavike wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:26 pm


It was a rough offseasons for Rick Spielman. Extending Kirk, Ngakoue trade, big money to a RB, and the stunt he pulled with Harris have all been disastrous. Harris is nothing special and never was. Should have struck while the iron was hot and got a pick for him. As crazy as it sounds, trading Ngakoue to the Ravens was now the best move he has made this year if only to minimize the damage of the initial decision.
Correct. There was no chance Ngakoue, a guy who clearly wants to play on a winning team, would have considered staying with the Vikings this off season. We got what we could for him and now Wonnum, a guy who will actually be on the roster next season, will get a chance for more playing time.
We didn't get ####. Ngakoue was in route to at least 12 sacks. He would have signed a big deal and we would have gotten a 3rd round comp pick from it. Instead, we traded him and got a 5th rounder and maybe 4 spots earlier in the 3rd round. Our GM is an idiot. A future 5th and 4 spots in the 3rd isn't worth giving up your only legit pass rusher for the season. When you add this to the already idiotic move to trade our 2nd rounder if baffles me that this guy isn't already fired. He is wasting top picks like water and stacking late picks like gold. #### Speilman.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by YikesVikes » Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:08 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:18 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:01 pm


A football player got hurt is the only pattern. The dude pulled a groin. Not a big deal.
A groin injury for a cutback RB like Cook is a big deal.

I guess we'll see how big a deal the decision to extend Cook really was. Only time will tell, but I suspect that before his extension runs out, nobody will be arguing about whether an injury pattern exists with Cook.
It was a mild strain. Not like he tore an abductor or hip flexor
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:34 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:06 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:48 pm


Correct. There was no chance Ngakoue, a guy who clearly wants to play on a winning team, would have considered staying with the Vikings this off season. We got what we could for him and now Wonnum, a guy who will actually be on the roster next season, will get a chance for more playing time.
We didn't get ####. Ngakoue was in route to at least 12 sacks. He would have signed a big deal and we would have gotten a 3rd round comp pick from it. Instead, we traded him and got a 5th rounder and maybe 4 spots earlier in the 3rd round. Our GM is an idiot. A future 5th and 4 spots in the 3rd isn't worth giving up your only legit pass rusher for the season. When you add this to the already idiotic move to trade our 2nd rounder if baffles me that this guy isn't already fired. He is wasting top picks like water and stacking late picks like gold. #### Speilman.
A 3rd in this draft is worth a lot more than a 3rd in the 2022 draft, plus they save cap with this move.

3rd round compensatory picks are not always guarantees either.

I won't disagree that giving up an early 2nd and 7 million for 6 relatively uninspired games and a late 3rd round pick in 2021 is stupid. It is significantly better than an early 2nd round pick, 12 million in cap for 16 uninspired games and a very late 3rd round pick in 2022 though.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by YikesVikes » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:36 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:34 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:06 pm


We didn't get ####. Ngakoue was in route to at least 12 sacks. He would have signed a big deal and we would have gotten a 3rd round comp pick from it. Instead, we traded him and got a 5th rounder and maybe 4 spots earlier in the 3rd round. Our GM is an idiot. A future 5th and 4 spots in the 3rd isn't worth giving up your only legit pass rusher for the season. When you add this to the already idiotic move to trade our 2nd rounder if baffles me that this guy isn't already fired. He is wasting top picks like water and stacking late picks like gold. #### Speilman.
A 3rd in this draft is worth a lot more than a 3rd in the 2022 draft, plus they save cap with this move.

3rd round compensatory picks are not always guarantees either.

I won't disagree that giving up an early 2nd and 7 million for 6 relatively uninspired games and a late 3rd round pick in 2021 is stupid. It is significantly better than an early 2nd round pick, 12 million in cap for 16 uninspired games and a very late 3rd round pick in 2022 though.
I don't understand you last sentence. Can you rephrase it?
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by allday1991 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:16 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:47 am



Yet another reason I continually ask myself why I frequent this board. It's like a damn drug addiction.

Stats and PFF are fine when they suit an argument, but when they don't, then it's back to unsubstantiated opinions. How about pressures? Third-fewest among all tackles. That has nothing to do with his guards. And Reiff has always been a good run blocker. Just go to the Seattle game, when none of us understood why we ran Mattison up the middle on 4th and 1 when the left side had been dominating.

Meanwhile, try READING something besides the uninformed narratives of dudes on this board. See what NFL analysts are saying. See what people who know the insides of NFL football are saying. The terms most used for Riley Reiff are "renaissance," "best season of his career" and "resurgence."

He's having a great season, no matter what you say. And honestly, for that reason, he probably has MORE trade value than at any time in his career. So why not dangle him out there to see what we can get? I mean, if we're gonna tank, let's do it right.
3 fewest pressures has nothing to do with his guards? lol all Reiff has to do is hold his block longer than our guards and he gets a check, not that hard. I'm not against the idea shopping Reiff around as a top 10 tackle whos on the resurgence just don't think any GM buys it.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by Foreman44 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:56 am

YikesVikes wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:06 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:48 pm


Correct. There was no chance Ngakoue, a guy who clearly wants to play on a winning team, would have considered staying with the Vikings this off season. We got what we could for him and now Wonnum, a guy who will actually be on the roster next season, will get a chance for more playing time.
We didn't get ####. Ngakoue was in route to at least 12 sacks. He would have signed a big deal and we would have gotten a 3rd round comp pick from it. Instead, we traded him and got a 5th rounder and maybe 4 spots earlier in the 3rd round. Our GM is an idiot. A future 5th and 4 spots in the 3rd isn't worth giving up your only legit pass rusher for the season. When you add this to the already idiotic move to trade our 2nd rounder if baffles me that this guy isn't already fired. He is wasting top picks like water and stacking late picks like gold. #### Speilman.
Foreman44

Not debating against you here, I think we are on the same page,,,,,it was a dumb trade to begin with. Maybe a good thing... this team isn’t going nowhere. Might as well lose. Does it make a diff erence. Just make the gam es interesting. Might as well help our chances for a better pick in next years draft. It’s to bad the jets suck worse than us, Giants in that fight too.

The bad is the worse this team does means that second rounder to the jets gets higher... let’s hope NGakoue makes pro bowl or all pro and our 5th in 2022 turns to a 4th. Then I will wish the Ravens have a very bad year in 2021. Will probably wish that anyway
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by StumpHunter » Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:20 am

YikesVikes wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:36 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:34 pm

A 3rd in this draft is worth a lot more than a 3rd in the 2022 draft, plus they save cap with this move.

3rd round compensatory picks are not always guarantees either.

I won't disagree that giving up an early 2nd and 7 million for 6 relatively uninspired games and a late 3rd round pick in 2021 is stupid. It is significantly better than an early 2nd round pick, 12 million in cap for 16 uninspired games and a very late 3rd round pick in 2022 though.
I don't understand you last sentence. Can you rephrase it?
If we had held onto Ngakoue we would have gotten 16 games of a defensive end who isn't having a significant impact, spent 5 million more in cap and gotten a later 3rd round pick in 2022. Maybe, since compensatory picks aren't guaranteed.

It was better to cut our losses now, but the original trade was still incredibly stupid.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by YikesVikes » Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:55 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:20 am
YikesVikes wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:36 pm


I don't understand you last sentence. Can you rephrase it?
If we had held onto Ngakoue we would have gotten 16 games of a defensive end who isn't having a significant impact, spent 5 million more in cap and gotten a later 3rd round pick in 2022. Maybe, since compensatory picks aren't guaranteed.

It was better to cut our losses now, but the original trade was still incredibly stupid.
No it's not better.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by PacificNorseWest » Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:19 am

allday1991 wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:16 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:47 am



Yet another reason I continually ask myself why I frequent this board. It's like a damn drug addiction.

Stats and PFF are fine when they suit an argument, but when they don't, then it's back to unsubstantiated opinions. How about pressures? Third-fewest among all tackles. That has nothing to do with his guards. And Reiff has always been a good run blocker. Just go to the Seattle game, when none of us understood why we ran Mattison up the middle on 4th and 1 when the left side had been dominating.

Meanwhile, try READING something besides the uninformed narratives of dudes on this board. See what NFL analysts are saying. See what people who know the insides of NFL football are saying. The terms most used for Riley Reiff are "renaissance," "best season of his career" and "resurgence."

He's having a great season, no matter what you say. And honestly, for that reason, he probably has MORE trade value than at any time in his career. So why not dangle him out there to see what we can get? I mean, if we're gonna tank, let's do it right.
3 fewest pressures has nothing to do with his guards? lol all Reiff has to do is hold his block longer than our guards and he gets a check, not that hard. I'm not against the idea shopping Reiff around as a top 10 tackle whos on the resurgence just don't think any GM buys it.

Yikes. What?!

Tackles don't merely "hold" blocks. They're dealing with arguably the best athletes on the football field -- and most the time, in pass pro -- they're moreso a shield than anything.

Guards get the leverage with the insides of the shoulder pad shell...Tackles gotta be more fluid than that and punch to push away....they can't all be maulers like that (They CAN be, but those pancakes you see are all arms/hands and/or the only pass rusher in sight).
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:06 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:42 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:21 pm


This is what I've been saying the since the second Ngakoue was traded. The first thing that came to my mind was "Reiff!" I have zero idea why they would even bother holding onto him right now. Put Cleveland at LT, let him get 10 games of experience under his belt and let him learn this year. By the time we turn this around Reiff will be gone regardless. Let's get what we can for him and as you point out, his trade value will never get higher than it is right now.
Cleveland has played a total of 3 snaps in practice at tackle in Kubiak's zone blocking scheme and that was only because he got in the wrong line during a drill in camp. Unless the Vikings want him to be the catalyst to being as bad as the Jets, I don't think he is a viable option at LT this year and might never be one.
But somehow he's now a viable option at RG? A position he's never played and also on the complete opposite side of the OL. Everyone also said Brian O'Neill wasnt ready and needed to get stronger. Brian O'Neill has done just fine. However the only reason he went in his rookie year was because of Hill getting hurt. That's the classic Zimmer way, too afraid to hurt someones feelings and bench them outright.

Either way, we have plenty of OT depth even outside of Cleveland. You could put Hill or Udoh there. You could move O'Neill to LT and put Hill or Udoh at RT. You could move O'Neill to LT and have Cleveland go to RT. We have plenty of options if we trade Reiff.

Also, the combine numbers (granted it's only the combine I know) but.....

-Same height as O'Neill
- <1" difference in arm length and hand size
-13 pounds heavier than O'Neill
-2" Longer wingspan than O'Neill
-40 yard dash- Cleveland- 4.93 O'Neill- 4.80
-20 yard split- Cleveland- 2.90 O'Neill- 2.83
-10 yard split- Cleveland- 1.73 O'Neill- 1.70
-Bench press- Cleveland- 30 reps O'Neill- 22 reps
-Vertical- Cleveland- 30" O'Neill- 29.5"
-Broad jump- Cleveland- 111" O'Neill- 107"
-20 yard shuttle- Cleveland- 4.46 O'Neill- 4.50
-3 cone- Cleveland- 7.26 O'Neill- 7.14

This is every major category at the combine and the numbers are nearly identical across the board. I said the second Cleveland was drafted that he is a clone to O'Neill. This guy is an offensive tackle. Whether it's the right side or left side, he needs to be at tackle IMO and what better time to do it than now. Let him get experience there heading into next year. Why they have him at RG is beyond me. I dont think this staff truly believes that he is a "future guard". I think they simply knew they had a massive problem at both guard spots and hope he would fix it.
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