Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:36 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:22 am

The defense would be better with Hunter, Barr and Pierce, but with a terrible secondary it was going to be a below average defense. Offensively, we are not really seeing issues because of Covid or injuries, but we have a below offense anyway.
I wouldnt say secondary. The corners would be rough but not the safeties. And you have to understand, with a better DL that can get pressure, it puts much less stress on your corners and they dont have to cover nearly as long. Right now, QBs could light a fire and roast a marshmallow behind their OL when they are playing the Vikings. These corners are stranded on an island. Bottom line is, a better DL with make a weak/young CB group look much better. A DL that can literally generate zero pressure will make your conrers look horrendous.
With 0 injuries, this team is below average on defense and offense talentwise (not terrible like they are now), yet we are right up against the cap this year and over the cap next year with no 2nd round pick.
I disagree that this offense is below average talent wise. They have 2 WRs that are top 10 in the NFL in many categories, you have Dalvin Cook who is arguably the best RB in the NFL, Irv Smith is starting to come on, Cousins is an average QB (below average when struggling, above average when not), a very solid RT, a tolerable center, etc. Yes guards are a huge weakness. Yes Reiff should be gone next year. But I'm not sure how you can call this offense below average talent wise. Outside of a few offensive lineman, nobody is below average. Hell, some are elite.



Knowing that we likely have to cut our starting LT and SAM to get under the cap next year while also not being about to re-sign our starting safety and maybe not even our starting DE if Odenigbo plays well (I would think they would prioritize this and get it done if he is worth keeping), and do not have a 2nd round pick to fill the multiple holes this 3-5 team will have, do you think Rick has done a good job? Do you think this team will compete for anything next year or has our window to win it all passed?
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Not having a 2nd rounder sucks but we still have a pick to replace that, it's just obviously later in the 3rd. So the difference between having no 2nd at all compared to having an extra 3rd instead of a 2nd is massive.

And yeah overall, I do think Rick has done a good job. I've always said that. Granted, he's had his blunders and busts like any GM but overall, yeah the guy does a great job getting talent onto this team. How that talent is utilized is a whole different story. But either way, in order to build an elite defense, you need some elite players. This defense was very good and even elite in recent years. The offense is another one that has not been elite but been solid within the last 5 years. Could it have gotten better (especially at positions like OG)? Yeah. But there isnt a team across the league that you can look at and not find a massive hole on their offense. Or defense for that matter.

I loved the Ngakoue signing but did not like trading him away. I would've let guys like Harris, Reiff and more go to keep Ngakoue around but that's beyond the point. Rick has no doubt had his mistakes but I still rank him in the top 6-8 as a talent evaluator and 8-10 as an overall GM.

Unfortunately, I think there window has come and now seems gone but I would probably trust Spielman taking another run at it and starting a new rebuild.
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S197
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by S197 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:09 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:53 am
S197 wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:20 pm
Last year it was Hercules and Watts that were these amazing pass rushers sitting on the bench. Samia was getting the short end of the stick.

Anyone remember Brandel? He was supposed to be another great Rick pick and the guy isn't even on the team. Tajae Sharpe was a great FA pickup.

It's just a constant carousel of start the next guy up with this sort of amnesia that we go down this road again and again. Coaching is an issue but so is talent acquisition. Lynch had one nice play. So did Mike Hughes.

I'm sure as the season becomes more of a lost cause these guys will get more looks but the odds they blow away their teammates is relatively low except for perhaps Cleveland.
To be honest, I think Mata'afa is in Zimmers dog house after the tweet he put up. He's only played like 18 snaps this year. I remember Blake Brandel but I dont remember anyone saying it was a great pick by Spielman. As for Sharpe, yeah I did like the pickup and I still dont understand why he isnt playing and they are still trying to make Chad Beebe into the next Julian Edelman. I mean Thielen and Jefferson both can play the slot at any point and at a high level. Why do we need another slot WR? I dont care what anyone says including this coaching staff that seems to struggle to evaluate talent and who should be playing....Tajae Sharpe is a much better WR than both Chad Beebe and Bisi Johnson. It's just yet another guy that hasnt really been given a chance. Trust me, if he plays as much as Beebe or Johnson have, he outproduces both of them easily. But guess what, Johnson and Beebe "know where to be and know this scheme" so they get the nod.

I dont think it's talent acquisition at all. Think about what this defense looked like heading into the season....

DE- Hunter
DE- Ngakoue/Odenigbo
1 tech- Pierce
3 tech- ???
SLB- Barr
MLB- Kendricks
WLB- Gedeon/Wilson
CB-Hughes, Hill, Gladney, Dantzler, Hand
S- Smith, Harris

Where is there a lack of talent? 3 tech? CB? Even though when you lose all 3 starters from the previous season, you can only bring in so much to fill in those roles. We took a CB in the 1st, 3rd and 5th with Hughes and Hill on the roster. I dont think anyone is here saying Gladney and Dantzler suck and we bad picks, they are just young and are being asked to cover for a long time. Outside of that, I would say going into the year I'd feel pretty comfortable with this defense and know that it will have room to grow.

You gotta think, we've lost pretty much every day 1 starter on this defense outside of Kendricks, Harris and Smith. I guess you could consider Odenigbo. That's the definition of a depleted defense.

However, what bothers me, is there are MANY guys (especially at DT) that have been given plenty of chances to show something over the years and they've shown nothing. Particularly Stephen and Johnson. Holmes is another one that's had some chances and will have another huge chance after getting rid of Ngakoue. So my question is, WHY do we continue to play some of these guys when you KNOW they have maxed out their ceiling?? Again, especially Johnson and Stephen. WHY? Lynch hasnt even been able to scratch the surface yet, we are 1-5 and this team is practically toast this season.

I dont care if Lynch had 1 good play or not. All I know is, Stephen and Johnson have had ZERO good plays and they are full time starters. Lynch had 1 good play in 8 snaps. At this point, who cares if Lynch gets the nod and gets washed out every play and sucks. We arent going anywhere anyways. If that's the case, go back to Johnson or Stephen. But hell at least give the guy more of an opportunity than 8 meaningful snaps.

Same goes for Cleveland. The sad thing is, Cleveland is going right back to the bench now that Elflein is back. And if Elflein gets hurt, I'm sure they will go right back to Samia. As Cleveland continues to rot on the bench backing up a position he's never played before. But here we are, continuing to keep Riley Reiff, who I'm certain wont get traded before the deadline. Hell I'd even be excited to see Oli Udoh somewhere along the OL at this point. But we continue to trot out the same guys over and over and continue to watch the same caliber of play over and over.

This isnt a "we're lacking talent" thing. This is a coaching thing. Coming into this year, this team was still PLENTY talented enough to AT LEAST contend. The loss of key players and overall inconsistencies as a team, contention is out the door. So why are we just sitting here continuing to play our veteran depth that have zero future with this team. As a coach you have to find the young guys that DO have a future with this team. Cleveland and Lynch are just two of them you need to at least try right now.
Well Mata'afa is available for any other team to pick up if he's that good. As for Brandel, there was stuff like this:
Those who are feeling doom and gloom about the Vikings OL I think are going to get a huge surprise. IMO we are soon going to have one of the best OLs in all of the NFL. We have young players in O'Neill, Samia, Cleveland, Udoh, ready to emerge and late rounders that I believe are diamonds in the rough in Brandel and Hinton. Call me a homer if you want, but I truly believe this.
I'm removing names because we all make bad predictions and it's not really my point to call anyone out. It's this sentiment the post echoes that I think is the "carousel" we're stuck on. We're always rounding the corner with new talent if we'd just give these guys a shot. Except it often turns out not to be the case and we quickly forget about them and start all over next year.

There was some pretty good value at guard in the 3rd round when we traded down. Also good value at QB. What did those trade downs yield us? Nothing. MAYBE Hand becomes something other than a special teams player. Maybe. Everyone else didn't even make the roster. We traded down for 15 picks then basically cut everyone in the back half of the draft. Not a single player made it. Beat out by guys like Chisnea.

As for going into the season, Ifeadi hasn't shown he can be anything other than a role player. And the front office must have felt the same way otherwise why trade for Yannick? Pierce I think is getting way too much credit by fans. The guy was cut, is frequently over weight and out of shape, and didn't play a down here. We have no idea if he was an upgrade. Holmes and Johnson are both relatively high picks that aren't panning out. Barr is overpaid and been noticeably absent the last two years. Harris hasn't really done anything this year, maybe that's covering up the deficiencies of the corners, but he's not looking like the guy from 2019. Also it's not binary, the reason we lost a lot of these guys is because we handed out huge contracts to guys that aren't living up to them. We gave up cap capital to extend key players and that means tough choices had to be made. But that's still a front office decision and it's looking like a really poor one.
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StumpHunter
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:20 pm

S197 wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:09 pm
why trade for Yannick?
I have no idea. That trade makes zero sense, especially since Patton has come out and said he had to change the way he played when he came here to fit the system. So you trade a 2nd for a guy who you likely can't keep beyond this year where you won't be competitive, and he isn't even a good fit for your scheme in the first place? What the heck Rick?
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by S197 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:57 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:20 pm
S197 wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:09 pm
why trade for Yannick?
I have no idea. That trade makes zero sense, especially since Patton has come out and said he had to change the way he played when he came here to fit the system. So you trade a 2nd for a guy who you likely can't keep beyond this year where you won't be competitive, and he isn't even a good fit for your scheme in the first place? What the heck Rick?
The only thing I can come up with is Rick fooled himself into thinking this team was still a playoff team despite the loss of personnel. By the time the trade was done, Pierce was already out and he knew Hunter was likely done for the year. So other than Barr, he had a pretty good idea of what he was going to be working with when the trade was made. I won't absolve him due to injuries and opt outs, he made a major miscalculation.
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Nga

Post by Foreman44 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:37 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:20 pm
S197 wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:09 pm
why trade for Yannick?
I have no idea. That trade makes zero sense, especially since Patton has come out and said he had to change the way he played when he came here to fit the system. So you trade a 2nd for a guy who you likely can't keep beyond this year where you won't be competitive, and he isn't even a good fit for your scheme in the first place? What the heck Rick?
Foreman44

I agree. It was a great move by R.S, we ended up getting 4-5 games and get to move from a top 37 pick to a late 90s pick, seems like a great trade R.S. Time for you and Zimmer to move on.

The bad thing about R.S. moving on is they are leaving the new G.M. And coach in bad shape...cap and talent wise, especially on defense,, plus with cousins at qb pthis offense is going nowhere,
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Re: Vikings in full tank mode - trade Ngakoue

Post by YikesVikes » Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:11 pm

S197 wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:20 pm
Last year it was Hercules and Watts that were these amazing pass rushers sitting on the bench. Samia was getting the short end of the stick.

Anyone remember Brandel? He was supposed to be another great Rick pick and the guy isn't even on the team. Tajae Sharpe was a great FA pickup.

It's just a constant carousel of start the next guy up with this sort of amnesia that we go down this road again and again. Coaching is an issue but so is talent acquisition. Lynch had one nice play. So did Mike Hughes.

I'm sure as the season becomes more of a lost cause these guys will get more looks but the odds they blow away their teammates is relatively low except for perhaps Cleveland.
I've been spouting this for a long time. The guys we think are good are only so because we know their names and history. Most of these hidden gems are JAGs.
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