Fire everyone and start all over please

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J. Kapp 11
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:07 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:27 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:15 am


There's no optimism there. The Jets will be extremely lucky to win a game this year. They have a bad QB, no RBs, bad WRs, a bad OL and a terrible defense. Oh and a terrible coach. Some thought they may catch a win against a team like the Dolphins. They just played the Dolphins and lost 24-0. The talent on our roster compared to theirs is night and day. This Vikings team could walk into somewhere like Seattle and pull an upset off. They practically did if Mattison had a set of eyes that worked. The Jets on the other hand, will be lucky to compete with the worst of the worst.

You're looking at it from a pure record standpoint. I'm looking at it from a talent standpoint. The Vikings have lost to two undefeated teams by a combined 2 points. The Jets are losing to bad teams being QBed by Brett Rypien.

Tell me who the Jets have any shot of beating with this remaining schedule:
vs Bills
@ Chiefs
vs Patriots
@ Chargers
vs Dolphins
vs Raiders
@ Seahawks
@ Rams
vs Browns
@ Patriots

I honestly dont see a single win there. Normally I would've said Miami but given what Miami just did to them last week, I dont see it.

As for the Vikings schedule:
@ Packers
vs Lions
@ Bears
vs. Cowboys
vs. Panthers
vs. Jaguars
@ Bucs
vs Bears
@ Saints
@ Lions

I can see the Vikings beating the Lions both times, Cowboys, Panthers and Jags on any given Sunday. Even a win over the Bears wouldnt surprise me because their offense blows.

Are we really going to sit here and act like the Vikings have any shot of matching the Jets record or being even close to that #1 pick when you considered overall talent on the rosters plus remaining schedules?? Again, no optimism there, just quite obvious if you ask me.
I agree the Jets schedule is much more difficult and I don't see a win there. Weird things happen though. The Miami game might be winnable for the Jets with Tua getting the start, same with Chargers and their rookie QB.

The Vikings have come close to winning a couple of games against good teams, but watching both those games, it didn't seem like either of those teams were playing particularly well and may have been looking past us. Maybe that happens to the Jets a few times and they actually pull out a win or two?

We have no shot at beating the Bears btw. Their offense isn't great but succeeds against bad defenses like ours, and that defense is better than the one that just owned us twice last year.
Nobody wants to hear this, but I'm gonna say it.

The Minnesota Vikings are one more bad loss from the 2020 season turning into Titanic 2.0.

And sure enough, the first game after the bye is at Lambeau.

I don't care about talent. If Zimmer loses this locker room — assuming he hasn't already — the Jets could probably beat the Vikings.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by VikingLord » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:43 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:07 pm
I don't care about talent. If Zimmer loses this locker room — assuming he hasn't already — the Jets could probably beat the Vikings.
I don't see much evidence the players are giving up. Zimmer is unlikely to lose the locker room given the composition of the team. The only way I could see that happen is if Zimmer were to seriously start messing up. As it stands he's dealing with some fatal flaws on both sides of the ball that I think most players understand. The players who play the most affected positions seem intent on improving their play, and while the jury is out as to whether they can accomplish that this season, I expect some noticeable improvement will happen in the defensive secondary and the offense will learn to adapt to what it does well while avoiding what it doesn't do well.

The 2020 Vikings aren't very good right now, but based on what the players are saying and the way they're reacting to losses along with what Zimmer is saying and how he's reacting to losses, I don't see an imminent implosion on the horizon.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by S197 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:50 pm

Mothman wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:33 pm
S197 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:42 pm
What's more worrisome to me is it can also lead to the interim guy getting the HC job, which is what happened with Leslie Frasier.
The problem with that isn't so much giving an interim coach the job, it's failing to commit to him and give him full support. Frazier was practically treated like an interim coach for 3 years. There was certainly no commitment to him once Spielman became GM. The 2012 Vikings got to the playoffs on smoke, mirrors and AD and Frazier's reward for a job well done that year was lame duck status in 2013 while Spielman and ownership contemplated their next hire.

Tice was also promoted from interim HC but ownership was basically stripping the team down and selling it for parts during his first 3 years and when the Wilfs took over, they wanted to hire *their* head coach.

Maybe Frazier and Tice wouldn't have done any better with more support. We'll never know but that support's important. It's why Zimmer's been able to do as well as he has and it underlines his shortcomings because both he and Spielman have been given the tools and support they need.
We'll never know for sure but I don't think additional support would have helped. Like Zimmer, Frasier was a defensive guy and specifically a DB coach and yet his pass defense and his DBs were awful. Not even bad, but historically NFL record setting bad.

He had one great turnaround year but was that him or a generational HOF RB? Considering his lack of success in Tampa and thereafter, I'm thinking the latter.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by Mothman » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:27 pm

S197 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:50 pm
We'll never know for sure but I don't think additional support would have helped. Like Zimmer, Frasier was a defensive guy and specifically a DB coach and yet his pass defense and his DBs were awful. Not even bad, but historically NFL record setting bad.
Not every year and he didn't choose them. People love to judge him by his worst defenses but he's coached top 10 defenses too. Coaches need good personnel to win. Look at Zimmer's defense this year with the drop in experience/quality at DB.

I think additional support would have made a difference. Frazier was dealt a bad hand from the start, handed a roster with virtually no chance to win in 2011 (which was then hit hard by injuries) and hung out to dry in his final season. For cryin' out loud, he was asked to win a playoff game with Joe Webb as his starter because that was the best Spielman could provide as a backup QB in 2012. Additional support would have helped.
He had one great turnaround year but was that him or a generational HOF RB? Considering his lack of success in Tampa and thereafter, I'm thinking the latter.
In Tampa, he was dealing with some of the same problems he faced in MN. That defense didn't have the personnel to excel. Remember, he was coordinator of a top 5 defense last year. Not too shabby.

Personally, I think making excellent use of his team's greatest asset in 2012 is a point in his favor, not something that should be held against him.

It's water under the bridge now but no coach wins consistently with an inferior roster. Anyway, my point is that an interim coach becoming a head coach would be fine if it was the right person. However, I doubt that person is on the Vikes staff now and honestly, I'm in the camp that says let Zimmer coach out the season and then replace him anyway.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by Texas Vike » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:48 pm

TSonn wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:27 pm
Zimmer would've been canned by now if he were to be fired after that sad showing vs Atlanta.

What type of loss to GB would it take for him to be fired? We'll be coming off a bye week (Zim is already notorious for coming out flat out of bye weeks) against a motivated GB team. If we get beat something like 42-13, think that sparks any change? I'm expecting a blowout. At some point the humiliation has to get to the Wilfs, right?
One would think, but I have a hunch that the Wilfs are very likely to give Zimmer lots of leeway this season. I'd be shocked if they fire him before the end of the season. I'd also be very shocked if they fired Rick ever.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by Husker Vike » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:05 am

I don't think firing Zimmer at this point solves anything,he can't be expected to be able to provide a defense that is starting rookie and very inexperienced cornerbacks with zero pre season experience to be able to compete at this level.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by allday1991 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:09 am

Husker Vike wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:05 am
I don't think firing Zimmer at this point solves anything,he can't be expected to be able to provide a defense that is starting rookie and very inexperienced cornerbacks with zero pre season experience to be able to compete at this level.
He's the head coach right? what other NFL head coach has ever went into a season starting two rookies corners? Zimmer just makes no sense, he has always had a history of starting rookies slow, not overloading them etc. Then all of sudden this year he wants to start two rookies and trade away five starters? I get it Rick is to blame as well. Then on top of it all to start the season they trade for a DE to fill for hunter like we are some type of super bowl contenders. It was a dumb plan from the start and Zimmer and Rick need to take the blame.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:20 pm

allday1991 wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:09 am
Husker Vike wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:05 am
I don't think firing Zimmer at this point solves anything,he can't be expected to be able to provide a defense that is starting rookie and very inexperienced cornerbacks with zero pre season experience to be able to compete at this level.
He's the head coach right? what other NFL head coach has ever went into a season starting two rookies corners? Zimmer just makes no sense, he has always had a history of starting rookies slow, not overloading them etc. Then all of sudden this year he wants to start two rookies and trade away five starters? I get it Rick is to blame as well. Then on top of it all to start the season they trade for a DE to fill for hunter like we are some type of super bowl contenders. It was a dumb plan from the start and Zimmer and Rick need to take the blame.
Here's the irony.

Xavier Rhodes is killing it in Indy. According to PFF, he's allowing a 41.4% completion rate (half of 2019) and a 46.3 passer rating when targeted. He's also got two picks.

I realize we never could have afforded him with our cap situation, but it sure is interesting that when Rhodes gets away from the Cornerback Whisperer, he somehow thrives.

Fire them all.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by Cliff » Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:27 pm

Seems like they're going to wipe the slate clean as far as players go but let Zimmer and Rick get another shot at rebuilding the team and apparently around Cousins.

I don't think they'll survive another start like this in 2021 but I do think we'll see Zimmer and Rick back next year.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by Dames » Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:29 pm

Cliff wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:27 pm
Seems like they're going to wipe the slate clean as far as players go but let Zimmer and Rick get another shot at rebuilding the team and apparently around Cousins.

I don't think they'll survive another start like this in 2021 but I do think we'll see Zimmer and Rick back next year.
Yeah, I'm afraid you're right on this. :(
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by Cliff » Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:35 pm

Dames wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:29 pm
Cliff wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:27 pm
Seems like they're going to wipe the slate clean as far as players go but let Zimmer and Rick get another shot at rebuilding the team and apparently around Cousins.

I don't think they'll survive another start like this in 2021 but I do think we'll see Zimmer and Rick back next year.
Yeah, I'm afraid you're right on this. :(
I imagine rather than making trades they'd be submitting their resumes if it was going to happen this season. At 1-5, with injuries to key players as well as bad players with worse backups, there's no reason to keep them on unless you plan on it next season.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:38 pm

Cliff wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:27 pm
Seems like they're going to wipe the slate clean as far as players go but let Zimmer and Rick get another shot at rebuilding the team and apparently around Cousins.

I don't think they'll survive another start like this in 2021 but I do think we'll see Zimmer and Rick back next year.
Here's the only saving grace.

This season is garbage anyway. We're not going anywhere. There are no fans in the stands. It's all crap. So if we trade the farm, watching a glorified Big 12 team won't be as bad as it would be in other seasons.

On the flip side, if they build around Cousins, it'll be like trying to rebuild the World Trade Center on a marshmallow.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by TSonn » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:14 pm

It seems like people who don't want to fire Zimmer often ask "who could we bring in that's better!?" to those wanting a change at HC (not just here, but on all Vikings boards). I guess I just want to put it out there that I'm very aware that moving on from Zim might result in a few losing seasons (maybe even more) and I'm 100% on board with that if it means we're trying to move forward and rebuild with new pieces.

Let's be really bad or really good. Zimmer gives us average to sometimes above average which just won't get it done unless lady luck is on our side for every call/play (2017) and even then it won't be enough.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by RandyMoss84 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:52 pm

TSonn wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:14 pm
It seems like people who don't want to fire Zimmer often ask "who could we bring in that's better!?" to those wanting a change at HC (not just here, but on all Vikings boards). I guess I just want to put it out there that I'm very aware that moving on from Zim might result in a few losing seasons (maybe even more) and I'm 100% on board with that if it means we're trying to move forward and rebuild with new pieces.

Let's be really bad or really good. Zimmer gives us average to sometimes above average which just won't get it done unless lady luck is on our side for every call/play (2017) and even then it won't be enough.
I would gladly take a few losing seasons so I do not have to worry about Zimmer getting outcoached in big games, his terrible clock management, his stupid decisions, and missing the playoffs every other year anymore
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by YikesVikes » Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:04 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:38 pm
Cliff wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:27 pm
Seems like they're going to wipe the slate clean as far as players go but let Zimmer and Rick get another shot at rebuilding the team and apparently around Cousins.

I don't think they'll survive another start like this in 2021 but I do think we'll see Zimmer and Rick back next year.
Here's the only saving grace.

This season is garbage anyway. We're not going anywhere. There are no fans in the stands. It's all crap. So if we trade the farm, watching a glorified Big 12 team won't be as bad as it would be in other seasons.

On the flip side, if they build around Cousins, it'll be like trying to rebuild the World Trade Center on a marshmallow.
Insult to marshmallows everywhere.
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