Fire everyone and start all over please

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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:13 pm

Dames wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:58 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:35 pm

I'm drawing a blank. Did we?

If you're thinking John DeFilippo, he was Doug Pederson's quarterbacks coach.
I'm guessing he is talking about kick-#### Childress.
Correct! I remember the hype around Childress and the Wilfs desperately not wanting him to go to the Packers after they interviewed him. Then he gets here and we all realized he was just Andy Reed's yes man, didn't call any of the plays on offense and had no real idea how to coach a team. He wasn't incompetent, but there is a reason he never got another head coaching job.

I found this old article on the topic:
https://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/07/spor ... coach.html

It was between Childress and Greg Williams, something I had completely forgotten about. Ironic that he would cheat us out of the SB 4 years later.

Not to say Bienemy is Brad Childress, I just wonder if the Wilfs, like myself, would hesitate to go that route once again knowing more about the role of an Andy Reed OC?
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:20 pm

Something to consider when deciding to fire your HC: Your terrible team typically gets a little bump from it and plays a little harder (see TN and Atlanta).

Is that something that we really want? To go 5-11 instead of 3-13?

I say keep Zimmer and Spielman till the end. Fire them immediately following the season and then tell Cousins he either renegotiates his contract to remove the final guaranteed year or they will cut him. That 2022 part of the contract will keep any team from even considering him in a trade and maybe Cousins' pride will come into play and he will take that renegotiation over getting cut? He would be out the 35 million either way, and at least with a trade it looks a little better than being outright cut.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:34 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:20 pm
Something to consider when deciding to fire your HC: Your terrible team typically gets a little bump from it and plays a little harder (see TN and Atlanta).

Is that something that we really want? To go 5-11 instead of 3-13?

I say keep Zimmer and Spielman till the end. Fire them immediately following the season and then tell Cousins he either renegotiates his contract to remove the final guaranteed year or they will cut him. That 2022 part of the contract will keep any team from even considering him in a trade and maybe Cousins' pride will come into play and he will take that renegotiation over getting cut? He would be out the 35 million either way, and at least with a trade it looks a little better than being outright cut.
I like the idea about Cousins, but I doubt the players' union would allow it. They tend to frown on players giving up money voluntarily.

And as much as I loathe the idea of watching one more game of Zimmer trying to manage the clock when he's down by 18 ... you're probably right about firing him now.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by RandyMoss84 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:51 pm

Childress was not a bad coach, he won 2 division titles and improved the team every year until his last season, he is certainly better than awful Tice and Frazier
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by Dames » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:02 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:13 pm
Correct! I remember the hype around Childress and the Wilfs desperately not wanting him to go to the Packers after they interviewed him. Then he gets here and we all realized he was just Andy Reed's yes man, didn't call any of the plays on offense and had no real idea how to coach a team. He wasn't incompetent, but there is a reason he never got another head coaching job.

I found this old article on the topic:
https://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/07/spor ... coach.html

It was between Childress and Greg Williams, something I had completely forgotten about. Ironic that he would cheat us out of the SB 4 years later.

Not to say Bienemy is Brad Childress, I just wonder if the Wilfs, like myself, would hesitate to go that route once again knowing more about the role of an Andy Reed OC?
Wow. I completely forgot that Greg Williams was in the running.

Hard to say on Bienemy. He was very well respected was he was coaching here, at least by those on staff. Stefanski was as well, and so far so good for him. I honestly don't recall Childress having that same respect (he certainly didn't at the end of his head coaching gig). I guess you never know with any assistant until they get a shot.

Of course... that could definitely make them pause.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by S197 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:35 pm

makila wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:09 pm
S197 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:59 pm


I think he was a coach here as well. RB coach during the Peterson era I want to say.
Yup, he was. He was the running back coach at the beginning of ADs career with the Vikings.

Had to go look it up, couldn't remember the exact years. 2006-2010 he coached our RBs. He left on his own to take OC job at Colorado (his alma mater). Came back to the NFL in 2013 when Reid brought him to KC to coach RBs. OC there since 2018.
Sorry I don't know how I totally missed your last sentence, which said exactly the same thing lol. I think I was reading your post on my phone.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by S197 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:42 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:20 pm
Something to consider when deciding to fire your HC: Your terrible team typically gets a little bump from it and plays a little harder (see TN and Atlanta).

Is that something that we really want? To go 5-11 instead of 3-13?

I say keep Zimmer and Spielman till the end. Fire them immediately following the season and then tell Cousins he either renegotiates his contract to remove the final guaranteed year or they will cut him. That 2022 part of the contract will keep any team from even considering him in a trade and maybe Cousins' pride will come into play and he will take that renegotiation over getting cut? He would be out the 35 million either way, and at least with a trade it looks a little better than being outright cut.
What's more worrisome to me is it can also lead to the interim guy getting the HC job, which is what happened with Leslie Frasier.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by VikingLord » Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:32 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:20 pm
Something to consider when deciding to fire your HC: Your terrible team typically gets a little bump from it and plays a little harder (see TN and Atlanta).

Is that something that we really want? To go 5-11 instead of 3-13?

I say keep Zimmer and Spielman till the end. Fire them immediately following the season and then tell Cousins he either renegotiates his contract to remove the final guaranteed year or they will cut him. That 2022 part of the contract will keep any team from even considering him in a trade and maybe Cousins' pride will come into play and he will take that renegotiation over getting cut? He would be out the 35 million either way, and at least with a trade it looks a little better than being outright cut.
I don't know what the team is going to do with Cousins, but as for Zimmer and Spielman I wouldn't be surprised if the following happens:

- The team comes on late and finishes the season strong. I think this won't happen necessarily because of Zimmer or Spielman per se, but more because I think it's likely the defense is going to improve as the season wears on and the young CBs gain experience. They could just fall apart too, I suppose, but I don't see that happening. Also, as the losses pile up the players really have no expectations and will play looser and take more chances. Don't be surprised to see the Vikings corners start to jump some routes and maybe pick off some passes.

- The offense likewise loosens up. We've already started to see this at times later in games where the team is down and needs to come back with Cousins winging it down the field and picking up big chunks. Yes, that is often against prevent defenses that are conceding a lot, but the 2020 Vikings have some talent on offense, especially if Cook is healthy. This is not an offense most opponents can afford to go to sleep on even if they do have a tendency to cough it up regularly.

So you see a marginal improvement on the defensive side as the season goes on coupled with the offense playing to its strengths (and not Zimmer's idea of ball control), and they're more likely to finish strong.

If the team finishes strong, and if Spielman and Zimmer were honest with the Wilfs about the possible struggles of a team with a young defensive secondary and a shaky offensive line heading into the season, don't be surprised to see both Zimmer and Spielman in their respective positions come the start of next season.

If this team finishes with 3 or fewer wins, though, I expect even the Wilfs will be unable to reconcile that with what they're paying and will make a change.

But that won't happen. This is a 5-8 win team.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by makila » Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:56 pm

RE Bieniemy

My understanding is that Reid is primary play caller for KC, with input from Bieniemy (who does call plays at times as well). There was a well circulated video of him (Bienemy) calling plays in the playoffs last season. According to Reid (link below), Bieniemy is talking to QB in their helmet. Here Bieniemy talking about it briefly at the start of this presser:


Reid on Rich Eisen show in May. I had no clue Reid was at Missouri when Bieniemy was RB at Colorado.

-----
https://sports.yahoo.com/why-is-eric-bi ... 04861.html

“Eric and I talk through all of the plays. He is the one that gives them to the quarterback through the headset,” Reid said Monday. “But we go through every series and talk through it and make sure that we are on the same page, which ends up being very important.”

Like Nagy and Pederson did, Bieniemy contributes heavily to the installation of weekly gameplans. He does his own tape work and then meets with Reid, where he proposes plays and concepts he likes. If Reid agrees, they are inserted into the mix.
------
I also would say that just because he is of the Andy Reid coaching tree does not mean he is going to be a bad HC. Here are a few Andy Reid coaches:
John Harbaugh
Matt Nagy
Sean McDermott
Doug Pederson
Ron Rivera

Of course others have had less success:
Chili
Frazier
Pat Shurmur
Todd Bowles

It's ultimately about hiring the right person for the right job. I completely agree the Wilf's may have pause due to Reid ties and Chili. I really hope that wouldn't be the entire reason not to offer him a HC job. That's their call of course! I just threw the name out as I think he's going to be a good HC and fits here.

FWIW who is a great HC? Bill Belichick? Here's some of his coaching tree (per wiki, I'm not as familiar with his tree):
Al Groh - quit after 1 season as nfl HC
Romeo Crennel - fired from browns and kc HC jobs
Nick Saban - quit after 2 nfl seasons to go back to college
Eric Mangini - fired from nyj and browns HC jobs
Josh McDaniels - fired after 2 seasons (he'll get another chance whenever he wants)
Jim Schwartz - fired after 5 seasons in det
Bill O'Brien - fired after 6.33 seasons in hou
Matt Patricia - current det hc
Brian Flores - current mia hc
Joe Judge - current nyg hc

My overall point being, if they are the right person for the job, hire them. If not, don't. Shouldn't be about what tree they are part of, imho.

Of course all a moot point if no change is made with Zimmer. *shrugs*
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by Maelstrom88 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:50 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:32 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:20 pm
Something to consider when deciding to fire your HC: Your terrible team typically gets a little bump from it and plays a little harder (see TN and Atlanta).

Is that something that we really want? To go 5-11 instead of 3-13?

I say keep Zimmer and Spielman till the end. Fire them immediately following the season and then tell Cousins he either renegotiates his contract to remove the final guaranteed year or they will cut him. That 2022 part of the contract will keep any team from even considering him in a trade and maybe Cousins' pride will come into play and he will take that renegotiation over getting cut? He would be out the 35 million either way, and at least with a trade it looks a little better than being outright cut.
I don't know what the team is going to do with Cousins, but as for Zimmer and Spielman I wouldn't be surprised if the following happens:

- The team comes on late and finishes the season strong. I think this won't happen necessarily because of Zimmer or Spielman per se, but more because I think it's likely the defense is going to improve as the season wears on and the young CBs gain experience. They could just fall apart too, I suppose, but I don't see that happening. Also, as the losses pile up the players really have no expectations and will play looser and take more chances. Don't be surprised to see the Vikings corners start to jump some routes and maybe pick off some passes.

- The offense likewise loosens up. We've already started to see this at times later in games where the team is down and needs to come back with Cousins winging it down the field and picking up big chunks. Yes, that is often against prevent defenses that are conceding a lot, but the 2020 Vikings have some talent on offense, especially if Cook is healthy. This is not an offense most opponents can afford to go to sleep on even if they do have a tendency to cough it up regularly.

So you see a marginal improvement on the defensive side as the season goes on coupled with the offense playing to its strengths (and not Zimmer's idea of ball control), and they're more likely to finish strong.

If the team finishes strong, and if Spielman and Zimmer were honest with the Wilfs about the possible struggles of a team with a young defensive secondary and a shaky offensive line heading into the season, don't be surprised to see both Zimmer and Spielman in their respective positions come the start of next season.

If this team finishes with 3 or fewer wins, though, I expect even the Wilfs will be unable to reconcile that with what they're paying and will make a change.

But that won't happen. This is a 5-8 win team.
That's the nightmare scenario and unfortunately it's very likely.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by S197 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:02 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:32 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:20 pm
Something to consider when deciding to fire your HC: Your terrible team typically gets a little bump from it and plays a little harder (see TN and Atlanta).

Is that something that we really want? To go 5-11 instead of 3-13?

I say keep Zimmer and Spielman till the end. Fire them immediately following the season and then tell Cousins he either renegotiates his contract to remove the final guaranteed year or they will cut him. That 2022 part of the contract will keep any team from even considering him in a trade and maybe Cousins' pride will come into play and he will take that renegotiation over getting cut? He would be out the 35 million either way, and at least with a trade it looks a little better than being outright cut.
I don't know what the team is going to do with Cousins, but as for Zimmer and Spielman I wouldn't be surprised if the following happens:

- The team comes on late and finishes the season strong. I think this won't happen necessarily because of Zimmer or Spielman per se, but more because I think it's likely the defense is going to improve as the season wears on and the young CBs gain experience. They could just fall apart too, I suppose, but I don't see that happening. Also, as the losses pile up the players really have no expectations and will play looser and take more chances. Don't be surprised to see the Vikings corners start to jump some routes and maybe pick off some passes.

- The offense likewise loosens up. We've already started to see this at times later in games where the team is down and needs to come back with Cousins winging it down the field and picking up big chunks. Yes, that is often against prevent defenses that are conceding a lot, but the 2020 Vikings have some talent on offense, especially if Cook is healthy. This is not an offense most opponents can afford to go to sleep on even if they do have a tendency to cough it up regularly.

So you see a marginal improvement on the defensive side as the season goes on coupled with the offense playing to its strengths (and not Zimmer's idea of ball control), and they're more likely to finish strong.

If the team finishes strong, and if Spielman and Zimmer were honest with the Wilfs about the possible struggles of a team with a young defensive secondary and a shaky offensive line heading into the season, don't be surprised to see both Zimmer and Spielman in their respective positions come the start of next season.

If this team finishes with 3 or fewer wins, though, I expect even the Wilfs will be unable to reconcile that with what they're paying and will make a change.

But that won't happen. This is a 5-8 win team.
That's all certainly plausible. Cousins typically takes care of the ball well, at least in terms of picks. He does have issues with fumbles. But he's made some really bad reads this year and it's making me wonder if he's starting to "see ghosts." If the pressure is getting to him then I could see a 3-5 win season.

I think a lot will depend on health. If Cook can return and JJ and Thielen can stay healthy then they have a better shot.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:15 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:42 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:54 am


Sorry I worded that wrong, I see where the confusion is. What I meant is from the '99 draft class and beyond, only ONE first overall pick has won the SB. And that is Eli Manning. And yes Manning was '98 so he wouldnt apply to the stat I heard.

Point is, it shows that having that first overall pick and taking a QB is far from a guaranteed franchise changer. I mean look at Joe Burrow. I love Burrow and think he will be a stud but does anyone see him winning a SB or being even close to competing for one anytime soon? I sure dont. Some of these teams picking first are so bad that not even a young stud at QB can fix the problem.

If you look at QBs as of late that have been successful, it's because they were drafted by teams with good overall rosters. Mahomes, Watson, Jackson, etc. I dont doubt that Lawrence will be good in this league but no matter who the next QB is to come in on this team, they will be coming into a fairly solid roster.

This Vikings team is still way too talented to finish with a top 2 pick. The difference between the 1-5 Vikings and the 0-6 Jets is astronomical. This is why I continue to think Lawrence is nothing but a pipe dream but taking a QB somewhere in the 1st is definitely a possibility
I love your optimism. Normally I share it. But from where I sit, the difference between the 1-5 Vikings and the 0-6 Jets is the tip of the football hitting the ground as Will Fuller made the potential game-tying catch in Houston.

There's been a lot of talk that Lawrence should pull an Eli Manning if it's apparent he's going to be taken by the Jets — simply refuse to go there and try to force a deal, as Eli did with the Chargers back in 2004. Nobody could blame Lawrence if he did that.
There's no optimism there. The Jets will be extremely lucky to win a game this year. They have a bad QB, no RBs, bad WRs, a bad OL and a terrible defense. Oh and a terrible coach. Some thought they may catch a win against a team like the Dolphins. They just played the Dolphins and lost 24-0. The talent on our roster compared to theirs is night and day. This Vikings team could walk into somewhere like Seattle and pull an upset off. They practically did if Mattison had a set of eyes that worked. The Jets on the other hand, will be lucky to compete with the worst of the worst.

You're looking at it from a pure record standpoint. I'm looking at it from a talent standpoint. The Vikings have lost to two undefeated teams by a combined 2 points. The Jets are losing to bad teams being QBed by Brett Rypien.

Tell me who the Jets have any shot of beating with this remaining schedule:
vs Bills
@ Chiefs
vs Patriots
@ Chargers
vs Dolphins
vs Raiders
@ Seahawks
@ Rams
vs Browns
@ Patriots

I honestly dont see a single win there. Normally I would've said Miami but given what Miami just did to them last week, I dont see it.

As for the Vikings schedule:
@ Packers
vs Lions
@ Bears
vs. Cowboys
vs. Panthers
vs. Jaguars
@ Bucs
vs Bears
@ Saints
@ Lions

I can see the Vikings beating the Lions both times, Cowboys, Panthers and Jags on any given Sunday. Even a win over the Bears wouldnt surprise me because their offense blows.

Are we really going to sit here and act like the Vikings have any shot of matching the Jets record or being even close to that #1 pick when you considered overall talent on the rosters plus remaining schedules?? Again, no optimism there, just quite obvious if you ask me.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:27 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:15 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:42 pm

I love your optimism. Normally I share it. But from where I sit, the difference between the 1-5 Vikings and the 0-6 Jets is the tip of the football hitting the ground as Will Fuller made the potential game-tying catch in Houston.

There's been a lot of talk that Lawrence should pull an Eli Manning if it's apparent he's going to be taken by the Jets — simply refuse to go there and try to force a deal, as Eli did with the Chargers back in 2004. Nobody could blame Lawrence if he did that.
There's no optimism there. The Jets will be extremely lucky to win a game this year. They have a bad QB, no RBs, bad WRs, a bad OL and a terrible defense. Oh and a terrible coach. Some thought they may catch a win against a team like the Dolphins. They just played the Dolphins and lost 24-0. The talent on our roster compared to theirs is night and day. This Vikings team could walk into somewhere like Seattle and pull an upset off. They practically did if Mattison had a set of eyes that worked. The Jets on the other hand, will be lucky to compete with the worst of the worst.

You're looking at it from a pure record standpoint. I'm looking at it from a talent standpoint. The Vikings have lost to two undefeated teams by a combined 2 points. The Jets are losing to bad teams being QBed by Brett Rypien.

Tell me who the Jets have any shot of beating with this remaining schedule:
vs Bills
@ Chiefs
vs Patriots
@ Chargers
vs Dolphins
vs Raiders
@ Seahawks
@ Rams
vs Browns
@ Patriots

I honestly dont see a single win there. Normally I would've said Miami but given what Miami just did to them last week, I dont see it.

As for the Vikings schedule:
@ Packers
vs Lions
@ Bears
vs. Cowboys
vs. Panthers
vs. Jaguars
@ Bucs
vs Bears
@ Saints
@ Lions

I can see the Vikings beating the Lions both times, Cowboys, Panthers and Jags on any given Sunday. Even a win over the Bears wouldnt surprise me because their offense blows.

Are we really going to sit here and act like the Vikings have any shot of matching the Jets record or being even close to that #1 pick when you considered overall talent on the rosters plus remaining schedules?? Again, no optimism there, just quite obvious if you ask me.
I agree the Jets schedule is much more difficult and I don't see a win there. Weird things happen though. The Miami game might be winnable for the Jets with Tua getting the start, same with Chargers and their rookie QB.

The Vikings have come close to winning a couple of games against good teams, but watching both those games, it didn't seem like either of those teams were playing particularly well and may have been looking past us. Maybe that happens to the Jets a few times and they actually pull out a win or two?

We have no shot at beating the Bears btw. Their offense isn't great but succeeds against bad defenses like ours, and that defense is better than the one that just owned us twice last year.
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by TSonn » Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:27 pm

Zimmer would've been canned by now if he were to be fired after that sad showing vs Atlanta.

What type of loss to GB would it take for him to be fired? We'll be coming off a bye week (Zim is already notorious for coming out flat out of bye weeks) against a motivated GB team. If we get beat something like 42-13, think that sparks any change? I'm expecting a blowout. At some point the humiliation has to get to the Wilfs, right?
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Re: Fire everyone and start all over please

Post by Mothman » Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:33 pm

S197 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:42 pm
What's more worrisome to me is it can also lead to the interim guy getting the HC job, which is what happened with Leslie Frasier.
The problem with that isn't so much giving an interim coach the job, it's failing to commit to him and give him full support. Frazier was practically treated like an interim coach for 3 years. There was certainly no commitment to him once Spielman became GM. The 2012 Vikings got to the playoffs on smoke, mirrors and AD and Frazier's reward for a job well done that year was lame duck status in 2013 while Spielman and ownership contemplated their next hire.

Tice was also promoted from interim HC but ownership was basically stripping the team down and selling it for parts during his first 3 years and when the Wilfs took over, they wanted to hire *their* head coach.

Maybe Frazier and Tice wouldn't have done any better with more support. We'll never know but that support's important. It's why Zimmer's been able to do as well as he has and it underlines his shortcomings because both he and Spielman have been given the tools and support they need.
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