Cousins in the “big games”

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Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by RandyMoss84 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:35 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:30 am
VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:55 am
I think what frustrates me is when a player/team has all the ingredients to be successful, but fail to ever each their potential. Cousins fits in this category for me. One of the guys on Fox said about Cousins "He like a box of chocolates. You don't know which one you're gonna get". And that pretty much says it all. I don't think it matters what kind of team he's on. Even if Cousins is on a great team, he'll find those ways to lose those certain percentage of games (usually the important ones).

Last year, when their was so much debate about Cousins versus Keenum/Bridgewater, my biggest argument wasn't that Keenum was a BETTER quarterback...it was that when he is placed on a very gifted team surrounding him, he can win. I don't believe that is true about Cousins. He'll have a lot of those games where he might look better losing than Keenum looked when he was winning, but the bottom line in that one of them won and the other one can't.

I said that I didn't think the Vikings are going to win with him, and I still say that. He's not a winner. On top of that, we have the double whammy now because I now feel the same way about Zimmer. At this point, I just want to hit the Fast Forward button to the point where Zimmer and Cousins are gone. That way I will have HOPE again.
Since you probably listen to a lot of Eagle chatter where you live, any chance the Eagles are ready to give up on Wentz and trade for Cousins? They owe us one for the SB we gifted them.
Tell me how Vikings will win a Superbowl with injuried prone Carson?
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Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:55 am

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:35 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:30 am


Since you probably listen to a lot of Eagle chatter where you live, any chance the Eagles are ready to give up on Wentz and trade for Cousins? They owe us one for the SB we gifted them.
Tell me how Vikings will win a Superbowl with injuried prone Carson?
They won't and I wouldn't necessarily want him as part of the deal. I would take him back if the Eagles insisted and there is a nice local angle to play off of there.

Looking at the contracts it looks like Wentz would need to be a part of the deal and only works if the trade occurred after June 1st. His contract is not that bad for any team that traded for him though and the Vikings would have an out in 2022.

In this farfetched scenario, Wentz would come in and compete for the starting job with a rookie, then get cut in 2022 with 0 dead cap.

It makes sense if the Vikings draft a QB in April and then need to dump Cousins afterwords, but it also means that 2022 salary is guaranteed when the trade happens.
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Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:36 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:28 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:05 pm

For the record, Case Keenum DID lead the Vikings to the NFC Championship Game. Yes, he stunk in that game and hasn't had a good season before or since. But he did have a good year in 2017, and the Vikings made the NFCC game. So I think it's fair to say he led the Vikings to the game. I mean, what if Sean Mannion had been Sam Bradford's backup?

Also for the record, Nick Foles wasn't exactly like Trent Dilfer in 2000. He was the MVP of that Super Bowl, throwing for 373 yards and 3 TDs, plus catching a TD, against Belichick's Patriots. So from where I sit, Foles DID win the Eagles a SB. And he's not doing too shabby with the Bears, as much as I hate to give the Bears credit for anything.
Having a good year and being a good QB are two very different things. Sure Foles played well in the SB but let's be honest, when Foles took over, he took over an 11-2 team that Carson Wentz and a defense carried. Foles had to do one thing when he took over....not F up. As for Keenum, when you have the #1 defense in the NFL and a top running game in the NFL, you need to do one thing.....not F up. When Jimmy G has the best defense in the NFL and the #2 run offense, he needs to do one thing....not F up.

The OP blew up Jimmy G because he "nearly won the SB". Well Dan Marino NEVER won one. Peyton Manning won 2 (practically 1 because his 2nd one he was atrocious). Is Nick Foles ever going to be in the same conversation as Peyton Manning? Even if you took away Peytons Denver SB....no, never. My point is, just because you "take your team far" doesnt mean you are a good QB. It just doesnt. What you do over a career shows what kind of QB or player in general you are. Nobody will ever talk about Case Keenum being great, or even good for that matter because of the 2017 season. Why? Because he's a one year wonder. Nobody will ever talk about Jimmy G because he "nearly won a SB". Or even Foles just because he won one. Nobody talks about Trent Dilfer or Doug Williams. People will forever talk about the greats like Manning, Brady, Favre, etc. because they were exceptional throughout 95% of their career. Not one season.
You said, and I quote: "That's like saying Case Keenum led the Vikings to the NFC championship. Or Nick Foles won the Eagles a SB."

I'm simply refuting that specific comment that you made in your argument. I'm not arguing that they're all-time great QBs, or even that they're good QBs. But they DID do the things you say they didn't. You're using hyperbole here, and it's not necessary. Your argument is solid without the hype. Keenum and Foles are not top-tier quarterbacks.

I would also argue that many fans, especially Philly fans, WILL talk about Foles' performance in the Super Bowl for years to come. And I would guess the man won't ever have to buy a drink in Philly again. Can we say that about Trent Dilfer in Baltimore? Probably not. The Ravens won in spite of him. But for this one game, the Eagles won BECAUSE of Nick Foles. Had he performed at Nick-Foles-average that game, New England would have trashed the Eagles because Tom Brady threw for 505 yards and 3 TDs in one of the greatest performances in the history of the NFL.

Is Nick Foles going to the HOF? Not likely. But his SB performance merits far more praise than guys like Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Joe Flacco and even Peyton Manning in Denver.

However, regarding Keenum, I'll repeat something I've said before. IF Case Keenum were to perform at his 2017 regular-season level (a big if, I realize), I would take him over what we're getting from Kirk Cousins right now. Keenum not only produced statistically, but he provided a spark of team chemistry that I've never seen from Cousins. As a matter of fact, Cousins himself said something last year that really turned me off to who he is. He said he sees himself as "the CEO on the field." Sorry, but that's not what I want in my quarterback. I want a true field general, a leader of every man on the roster. Not a guy in a suit who doesn't give a darn about the rank-and-file.

Is Case Keenum a "better QB" than Kirk Cousins. Of course not. But for one season, he gave us more than Cousins has in any of his three. In big games against quality opposition, Kirk Cousins has come up short more than he hasn't. And I'm not just talking about wins and losses. I'm talking about the quality of his play.

I'm ready to move on. Unfortunately, the Vikings have hitched their train onto his engine for 2 additional years with no way to unhitch. So I'll keep rooting for Kirk to prove me wrong and have more games like the one he played against New Orleans in the playoffs last year, and fewer like the one he played last week.

I'm also ready to move on from Zimmer and Spielman. That's not likely either.
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Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by VikeFanInEagleLand » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:04 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:30 am
VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:55 am
I think what frustrates me is when a player/team has all the ingredients to be successful, but fail to ever each their potential. Cousins fits in this category for me. One of the guys on Fox said about Cousins "He like a box of chocolates. You don't know which one you're gonna get". And that pretty much says it all. I don't think it matters what kind of team he's on. Even if Cousins is on a great team, he'll find those ways to lose those certain percentage of games (usually the important ones).

Last year, when their was so much debate about Cousins versus Keenum/Bridgewater, my biggest argument wasn't that Keenum was a BETTER quarterback...it was that when he is placed on a very gifted team surrounding him, he can win. I don't believe that is true about Cousins. He'll have a lot of those games where he might look better losing than Keenum looked when he was winning, but the bottom line in that one of them won and the other one can't.

I said that I didn't think the Vikings are going to win with him, and I still say that. He's not a winner. On top of that, we have the double whammy now because I now feel the same way about Zimmer. At this point, I just want to hit the Fast Forward button to the point where Zimmer and Cousins are gone. That way I will have HOPE again.
Since you probably listen to a lot of Eagle chatter where you live, any chance the Eagles are ready to give up on Wentz and trade for Cousins? They owe us one for the SB we gifted them.
Most of the Eagle fans are still happy with Wentz. They aren't ready to abandon him yet.
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Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:52 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:28 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:05 pm

For the record, Case Keenum DID lead the Vikings to the NFC Championship Game. Yes, he stunk in that game and hasn't had a good season before or since. But he did have a good year in 2017, and the Vikings made the NFCC game. So I think it's fair to say he led the Vikings to the game. I mean, what if Sean Mannion had been Sam Bradford's backup?

Also for the record, Nick Foles wasn't exactly like Trent Dilfer in 2000. He was the MVP of that Super Bowl, throwing for 373 yards and 3 TDs, plus catching a TD, against Belichick's Patriots. So from where I sit, Foles DID win the Eagles a SB. And he's not doing too shabby with the Bears, as much as I hate to give the Bears credit for anything.
Having a good year and being a good QB are two very different things. Sure Foles played well in the SB but let's be honest, when Foles took over, he took over an 11-2 team that Carson Wentz and a defense carried. Foles had to do one thing when he took over....not F up. As for Keenum, when you have the #1 defense in the NFL and a top running game in the NFL, you need to do one thing.....not F up. When Jimmy G has the best defense in the NFL and the #2 run offense, he needs to do one thing....not F up.

The OP blew up Jimmy G because he "nearly won the SB". Well Dan Marino NEVER won one. Peyton Manning won 2 (practically 1 because his 2nd one he was atrocious). Is Nick Foles ever going to be in the same conversation as Peyton Manning? Even if you took away Peytons Denver SB....no, never. My point is, just because you "take your team far" doesnt mean you are a good QB. It just doesnt. What you do over a career shows what kind of QB or player in general you are. Nobody will ever talk about Case Keenum being great, or even good for that matter because of the 2017 season. Why? Because he's a one year wonder. Nobody will ever talk about Jimmy G because he "nearly won a SB". Or even Foles just because he won one. Nobody talks about Trent Dilfer or Doug Williams. People will forever talk about the greats like Manning, Brady, Favre, etc. because they were exceptional throughout 95% of their career. Not one season.
You think all Foles did in the playoffs was not F up? He dropped 38 points on us. He completed 26 of 33 passes for 352 yards, 3 touchdowns, no picks, and a 141.4 passer rating. If that is simply "not fing up". Sign me up for that. What he didn't do is panic and play worse when we jumped out to the early lead and got the ball back. Can't say our QB would have done the same.

Also, what is your point? You seem to be trying to die on a hill for no reason. You can't possibly believe that this arbitrary argument is somehow making a point for Kirk. No one cares how good a QB Kirk is if it doesn't show up in the games we need to win and get us a chip. So you comparing him to QBs that have won a chip is asinine. I would trade 10 1st rounders if it meant we win the chip this season. Do you think anyone in Philly is saying you know, I wish we had Kirk over Foles in 2017 because he was a better QB? No they are still coming down off their post Superbowl bender. I would like to have the opportunity to do so once in my life and your sweet Kirk Cousins is preventing this from happening.

:deadhorse:
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Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by Bowhunting Viking » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:41 am

As many of you regular members here know I am friends with Kirk's Center from his Redskins... oops I mean Football Teams... days.
When we signed him as our Savior QB Kory said " He's a great guy, great teammate and has the tools, but He will break your heart whenever you need it most"
I still hear those words echoing in my head.. HE WILL BREAK YOUR HEART... break your heart.... break your heart ( written in an echoing format).
Well he hasn't broken it. He has reached in, ripped it out, threw it in a pile of dog #### and stepped on it with 5" steel poison tipped spiked cleats.
Can't defend the guy or give him any benefit of doubt anymore. I tried, but just can't do it anymore. Faith is gone.
I know it's a team game and we are lacking in so many areas, but I have no belief anymore that Cousins can take us anywhere where we want to be.
I am done with #8.
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Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:24 am

YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:52 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:28 am


Having a good year and being a good QB are two very different things. Sure Foles played well in the SB but let's be honest, when Foles took over, he took over an 11-2 team that Carson Wentz and a defense carried. Foles had to do one thing when he took over....not F up. As for Keenum, when you have the #1 defense in the NFL and a top running game in the NFL, you need to do one thing.....not F up. When Jimmy G has the best defense in the NFL and the #2 run offense, he needs to do one thing....not F up.

The OP blew up Jimmy G because he "nearly won the SB". Well Dan Marino NEVER won one. Peyton Manning won 2 (practically 1 because his 2nd one he was atrocious). Is Nick Foles ever going to be in the same conversation as Peyton Manning? Even if you took away Peytons Denver SB....no, never. My point is, just because you "take your team far" doesnt mean you are a good QB. It just doesnt. What you do over a career shows what kind of QB or player in general you are. Nobody will ever talk about Case Keenum being great, or even good for that matter because of the 2017 season. Why? Because he's a one year wonder. Nobody will ever talk about Jimmy G because he "nearly won a SB". Or even Foles just because he won one. Nobody talks about Trent Dilfer or Doug Williams. People will forever talk about the greats like Manning, Brady, Favre, etc. because they were exceptional throughout 95% of their career. Not one season.
You think all Foles did in the playoffs was not F up? He dropped 38 points on us. He completed 26 of 33 passes for 352 yards, 3 touchdowns, no picks, and a 141.4 passer rating. If that is simply "not fing up". Sign me up for that. What he didn't do is panic and play worse when we jumped out to the early lead and got the ball back. Can't say our QB would have done the same.

Also, what is your point? You seem to be trying to die on a hill for no reason. You can't possibly believe that this arbitrary argument is somehow making a point for Kirk. No one cares how good a QB Kirk is if it doesn't show up in the games we need to win and get us a chip. So you comparing him to QBs that have won a chip is asinine. I would trade 10 1st rounders if it meant we win the chip this season. Do you think anyone in Philly is saying you know, I wish we had Kirk over Foles in 2017 because he was a better QB? No they are still coming down off their post Superbowl bender. I would like to have the opportunity to do so once in my life and your sweet Kirk Cousins is preventing this from happening.

:deadhorse:
Clearly you're taking this a mile out of context. I didnt compare Nick Foles to Cousins. Go back and read the post. The original poster talked about Jimmy G and how he'd take him over Cousins any day because he nearly won a SB. I, in turn, said that just because a QB gets to the SB, it doesnt mean he is a good QB. You're the one trying to bring Cousins into this conversation and claiming that I am defending him and comparing him to Foles. And regardless, even if I did compare him to Foles, is that not allowed? Lamar Jackson hasnt won a SB...does that mean I cant compare Jackson to Foles because Foles has a SB?

You literally just took that entire conversation I had and twisted it around to fit your argument. Stick to what was said, not your own narrative please.
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Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by fiestavike » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:30 am

Of course, just because a qb wins a SB doesnt mean he is a better QB than someone who hasn't.

Still, Nick Foles is a far better qb than Kirk Cousins.
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Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:59 am

fiestavike wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:30 am
Of course, just because a qb wins a SB doesnt mean he is a better QB than someone who hasn't.

Still, Nick Foles is a far better qb than Kirk Cousins.
Not sure where you're seeing that but ok....

Nick Foles has primarily been a backup for most of his career or a stop gap. He's never started a full season in his career and since 2015 he hasnt thrown for more than 7 touchdowns in a season. So like I said, I have no clue where you're coming up with him being a "far better QB" than Kirk Cousins

Heck, Foles was the starting QB for the SB champs in 2017 and and had a weak market come 2018. Sound familiar....Case....
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Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by RandyMoss84 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:03 am

fiestavike wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:30 am
Of course, just because a qb wins a SB doesnt mean he is a better QB than someone who hasn't.

Still, Nick Foles is a far better qb than Kirk Cousins.
Foles is not a far better quarterback than Cousins
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Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:39 am

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:03 am
fiestavike wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:30 am
Of course, just because a qb wins a SB doesnt mean he is a better QB than someone who hasn't.

Still, Nick Foles is a far better qb than Kirk Cousins.
Foles is not a far better quarterback than Cousins
Yeah agreed, that's simply just not an accurate statement. Regardless, that's not even what I was trying to discuss above. I was simply saying that just because a QB takes a team far, it doesnt mean they are a good QB. Foles was just one of a few different examples I mentioned. It had nothing to do with Cousins. It was my point with Jimmy G. And honestly, I think that he is a very similar QB to Cousins. Good when it's all going right but can struggle when it's not. He can be shaky under pressure. Worse than Cousins actually in that regard.

The direction this conversation was initially going was trading Cousins to SF because Shanahan was rumored to be in favor of Cousins over Jimmy G. Instead, a few people drastically re-railed where I was going with this and created their own narrative of what I was trying to prove. If anyone hasnt noticed, I havent defended Cousins one time since that Atlanta game....just saying
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Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by VikeFanInEagleLand » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:00 am

fiestavike wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:30 am
Of course, just because a qb wins a SB doesnt mean he is a better QB than someone who hasn't.

Still, Nick Foles is a far better qb than Kirk Cousins.
By just about all measures of a QB (except that he has a SB win), he is NOT better than Cousins. He took over for Wentz in Week 14 and the Eagles continued to win with less than underwhelming play from Foles. Even in Week 1 of the playoffs versus Atlanta, Foles played more of a "just don't loser the game" type game. Has a rating of 100.1 with no TD's.

It wasn't until the next week against the Vikings that he looked like a Hall of Fame QB, and he continued to play well the next game in the Super Bowl. He played well when he had to. And I have heard/read from many outlets that he is one of those QB's that get's the most from the players around him. They love playing for him. In many ways, I equate that to Keenum. I actually think Keenum is a better QB than Foles.

The fact remains...Cousins, by almost every measurable category is a better QB than these two. EXCEPT that he just can't seem to WIN in any kind of consistent manner, no matter how good a team is surrounding him. I am not and will never be convinced that if Cousins had been our QB in 2017, that we would have gone 13-3 and gotten a first round bye in the playoffs. If we would have, I am even more convinced that we wouldn't have won the Saints game with him.

And NOW, on top of the remote possibility that if Cousins ever decides to prove everyone wrong at this point, I have to worry about Zimmer and his coaching staff losing it for us instead. Good grief !!!
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Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:36 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:39 am
RandyMoss84 wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:03 am


Foles is not a far better quarterback than Cousins
Yeah agreed, that's simply just not an accurate statement. Regardless, that's not even what I was trying to discuss above. I was simply saying that just because a QB takes a team far, it doesnt mean they are a good QB. Foles was just one of a few different examples I mentioned. It had nothing to do with Cousins. It was my point with Jimmy G. And honestly, I think that he is a very similar QB to Cousins. Good when it's all going right but can struggle when it's not. He can be shaky under pressure. Worse than Cousins actually in that regard.

The direction this conversation was initially going was trading Cousins to SF because Shanahan was rumored to be in favor of Cousins over Jimmy G. Instead, a few people drastically re-railed where I was going with this and created their own narrative of what I was trying to prove. If anyone hasnt noticed, I havent defended Cousins one time since that Atlanta game....just saying
I'm not re-railing. I'd do that deal in a minute, for one simple reason: Jimmy G. can be cut after this year for a $2.8 million cap hit.

In other words, I don't want either of them long-term. Trading for Jimmy G. means we could unhitch from both.
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Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:48 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:36 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:39 am


Yeah agreed, that's simply just not an accurate statement. Regardless, that's not even what I was trying to discuss above. I was simply saying that just because a QB takes a team far, it doesnt mean they are a good QB. Foles was just one of a few different examples I mentioned. It had nothing to do with Cousins. It was my point with Jimmy G. And honestly, I think that he is a very similar QB to Cousins. Good when it's all going right but can struggle when it's not. He can be shaky under pressure. Worse than Cousins actually in that regard.

The direction this conversation was initially going was trading Cousins to SF because Shanahan was rumored to be in favor of Cousins over Jimmy G. Instead, a few people drastically re-railed where I was going with this and created their own narrative of what I was trying to prove. If anyone hasnt noticed, I havent defended Cousins one time since that Atlanta game....just saying
I'm not re-railing. I'd do that deal in a minute, for one simple reason: Jimmy G. can be cut after this year for a $2.8 million cap hit.

In other words, I don't want either of them long-term. Trading for Jimmy G. means we could unhitch from both.
The discussion was never trade Cousins for Jimmy G. It was simply trade Cousins to SF for whatever you can get because Shanahan wants him. I dont expect or want Jimmy G in return.
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Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:36 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:48 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:36 pm

I'm not re-railing. I'd do that deal in a minute, for one simple reason: Jimmy G. can be cut after this year for a $2.8 million cap hit.

In other words, I don't want either of them long-term. Trading for Jimmy G. means we could unhitch from both.
The discussion was never trade Cousins for Jimmy G. It was simply trade Cousins to SF for whatever you can get because Shanahan wants him. I dont expect or want Jimmy G in return.
Even better.
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