Cousins in the “big games”

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8091
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 708

Cousins in the “big games”

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:42 pm

Previously on here I’ve referred to the whole “cousins in prime time” narrative and said that Kyle Brandt on GMFB proved that narrative to be false. Well PFF actually wrote an article on it and it was indeed true.... I just think this simply proves that just looking at a record doesn’t tell the whole story

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-vikings-k ... -primetime
0 x
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri

User avatar
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 12325
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii
x 471

Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by S197 » Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:16 pm

I recall this article being posted before. It's interesting but not exactly a ringing endorsement.
Our analysis suggests that Kirk Cousins is a step above the average quarterback that teams tend to face on Sunday afternoon but a step below the average quarterback that teams tend to face in prime time. Along with some bad luck in small samples, this explains the large discrepancy of the win-loss records.

The narrative that Cousins can’t deliver when the lights are set on him is not true, though we have found that his decision-making might be suboptimal.
They're basically saying he's average, maybe slightly above average factoring in "bad luck." I think that's a fair assessment, Cousins problem isn't that he can't play well under whatever scenario, he's just not consistent. And that's a big problem when you're getting paid elite money.

The stats sometimes too are not very indicative. This article and others bring up the Dallas game, which was his big redemption game. But if you watch the game (there is a good summary of plays on YouTube) he's literally handing the ball off or dumping screens to Cook the vast majority of the time. He had one good throw and maybe one more (underthrown but perhaps intentional, give him benefit of the doubt if you want). And that's really it. Dalvin won that game. I think he was even player of the week. But Cousins gets the credit. But don't take my word for it, go back and rewatch. And pay attention to Dak and the throws he was making all game. Cousins won the game but he wasn't the best QB that day.
0 x

User avatar
PacificNorseWest
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2929
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:10 am
Location: Seattle, Wa
x 148

Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by PacificNorseWest » Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:36 am

I don't really care anymore about the narrative...I can legitimately argue both sides, but it proves nothing really in terms of what we're really craving here...so, let's just start with Sunday Night against the MVP front-runner and then maybe, hopefully, at some point, a damn SB.

Then may we all shutup and be happy. 😊
0 x

Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8091
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 708

Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:14 am

S197 wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:16 pm

They're basically saying he's average, maybe slightly above average factoring in "bad luck." I think that's a fair assessment, Cousins problem isn't that he can't play well under whatever scenario, he's just not consistent. And that's a big problem when you're getting paid elite money.
And I think that is a fair assessment. My problem with the whole narrative is that his record suggests that he is not just bad but extremely bad in the big game under the lights. That's all that many people see is....the record. I'm not sitting here saying he's a superstar in primetime but I'm glad to see that someone finally put an article out about this. Because I've mentioned this multiple times on here and it was just "the record, the record, the record". The record doesnt tell the whole story and this shows that whether it's primetime or not, Cousins is who he is. He isnt some massive choke artist under the lights like people claim him to be.

Like I said, that's my main problem with the narrative. I think you definitely make some good points but it's just people have to get over the "record in primetime" thing. No less the guy started for Washington for 4 years. An organization that has failed year after year to build any sort of competitive roster. Yet you hear the excuses of "well Teddy is on Carolina and they are a bad team" or "well Case went to Denver and they werent any good". How about Cousins played for a dumpster fire organization for 4 years? And a big chunk of this record we're holding over his head happened when he played for the Redskins.

My point is, criticize away but dont go to bat for a QB that you give all these excuses for when you wont allow these same excuses to be used for Cousins. Records dont tell the whole story. Look at Cousins primetime record vs. Case Keenums 2017 record. The difference in record is massive but clearly that doesnt tell us anything about either QB.

(this isnt directed at you, I'm just saying in general)
0 x
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri

User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6696
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 324

Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by VikingLord » Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:21 am

It would be nice to see the Vikings OL perform well on Sunday against the Seahawks so we can see what Cousins can do if given time. He seems to be developing some timing and confidence with his receivers and the Seahawks don't have a great secondary.
0 x

StumpHunter
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2124
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 333

Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:22 am

Putting aside the "bad luck" of needing to perform better against better teams to win (who would have thought that was the case?!?!), there is a definite pattern Cousins exhibits against good defenses.

https://purplepainforums.com/thread/350 ... ses-bottom

0-10 versus top 10 passer rated defenses from 2018-2019, the fewest points scored in games where he has faced a top 10 pass defense among the qualifying QBs and the second lowest passer rating.

Most, not all, big games will be against teams with good defenses and the pattern is there that he will falter when that happens. The defense might, and actually probably will falter when that happens as well, since defenses will struggle when the offense struggles to keep them off the field and constantly puts them in bad spots. That doesn't change the clear trend that we continue to see this year where he is 0-1 in that spot so far and had his worst game of his career.
Last edited by StumpHunter on Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
1 x

StumpHunter
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2124
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 333

Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:30 am

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:21 am
It would be nice to see the Vikings OL perform well on Sunday against the Seahawks so we can see what Cousins can do if given time. He seems to be developing some timing and confidence with his receivers and the Seahawks don't have a great secondary.
Cousins is 6th in time in the pocket so far this season. Time isn't the issue, or rather it is, but it isn't that the Oline is not giving the QB enough time.

Good news about this week is Seattle's pass rush is kind of poopy and graded worse than ours by PFF. Their top pass rushers are having similar success to our top pass rushers as well, which is very little and far between.
0 x

User avatar
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8210
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 869

Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:59 pm

Wouldn't it be nice if we didn't have to argue about this?

I mean, nobody has this argument about Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Mahomes, Wilson, etc.

It would be so great if his play in big games were just evident on face value.
4 x
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.

User avatar
Tark
Backup
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:03 pm
x 19

Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by Tark » Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:55 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:42 pm
Previously on here I’ve referred to the whole “cousins in prime time” narrative and said that Kyle Brandt on GMFB proved that narrative to be false. Well PFF actually wrote an article on it and it was indeed true.... I just think this simply proves that just looking at a record doesn’t tell the whole story

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-vikings-k ... -primetime
Go ahead with your man crush on Cousins but the only "record" I care about is wins vs losses at the end of the season.
0 x

User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6696
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 324

Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by VikingLord » Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:02 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:30 am
VikingLord wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:21 am
It would be nice to see the Vikings OL perform well on Sunday against the Seahawks so we can see what Cousins can do if given time. He seems to be developing some timing and confidence with his receivers and the Seahawks don't have a great secondary.
Cousins is 6th in time in the pocket so far this season. Time isn't the issue, or rather it is, but it isn't that the Oline is not giving the QB enough time.

Good news about this week is Seattle's pass rush is kind of poopy and graded worse than ours by PFF. Their top pass rushers are having similar success to our top pass rushers as well, which is very little and far between.
Sometimes I wonder if you and I watch the same team. Maybe we're time-shifted or something where you're watching Cousins playing behind a competent OL that consistently gives him time while I'm watching an OL that plays matador almost as often as they block competently.
2 x

Frozen Rope
Rookie
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:27 am
x 28

Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by Frozen Rope » Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:33 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:02 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:30 am


Cousins is 6th in time in the pocket so far this season. Time isn't the issue, or rather it is, but it isn't that the Oline is not giving the QB enough time.

Good news about this week is Seattle's pass rush is kind of poopy and graded worse than ours by PFF. Their top pass rushers are having similar success to our top pass rushers as well, which is very little and far between.
Sometimes I wonder if you and I watch the same team. Maybe we're time-shifted or something where you're watching Cousins playing behind a competent OL that consistently gives him time while I'm watching an OL that plays matador almost as often as they block competently.
You took the words out of my mouth VL. Well said
0 x

StumpHunter
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2124
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 333

Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by StumpHunter » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:59 am

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:02 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:30 am


Cousins is 6th in time in the pocket so far this season. Time isn't the issue, or rather it is, but it isn't that the Oline is not giving the QB enough time.

Good news about this week is Seattle's pass rush is kind of poopy and graded worse than ours by PFF. Their top pass rushers are having similar success to our top pass rushers as well, which is very little and far between.
Sometimes I wonder if you and I watch the same team. Maybe we're time-shifted or something where you're watching Cousins playing behind a competent OL that consistently gives him time while I'm watching an OL that plays matador almost as often as they block competently.
I didn't state my opinion about the line I stated facts. That is the biggest difference between what you comment versus what I do. You write what you perceive the line to be doing while I write what they are actually doing.
1 x

Dmizzle0
Franchise Player
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:03 pm
x 26

Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by Dmizzle0 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:48 pm

Are we gonna do a Seahawks pregame board or are we in a collective agreement that this gonna be an L?
1 x

User avatar
Raz
Starter
Posts: 170
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:06 pm
x 12

Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by Raz » Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:42 pm

He is what he is. Couisins shrinks under the bright lights gets rattled and just generally can’t take command of the offense.
He has had ample opportunity to make a play or two that would be tuff or difficult to pick his team up and he simply doesn’t get it done.
I was truly excited for his signing and thought that he was the one to take us all the way but now I think not.
It will be a year of blah Mostly to cheer for other players so my fantasy team doesn’t suck
0 x

User avatar
makila
Practice Squad
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:43 pm
x 14

Re: Cousins in the “big games”

Post by makila » Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:22 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:59 pm
Wouldn't it be nice if we didn't have to argue about this?

I mean, nobody has this argument about Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Mahomes, Wilson, etc.

It would be so great if his play in big games were just evident on face value.
This so much. The reason this talking point even exist is because he's borderline (either direction). So it goes back and forth. If he was clearly "above-average" all the time, we'll then he'd be an above average QB. In today's game it helps to have a top top tier QB. I know they don't just grow trees. Those guys weren't just top 3 picks either. It has a lot to do with our scouts and coaches at the position to develop the player you think has the skills to be better than average.
0 x