Titanic failure game thread

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S197
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Re: Titanic failure game thread

Post by S197 » Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:10 pm

I think the Vikings may actually blow it up, especially if this continues. What's sad is if Zygi had realized this a year earlier, they'd be in such a better position. Those extensions have essentially crippled the Vikings for years.

If you cut Cousins next year, it's $41M in dead cap. If you let him play in 2022, it's $45M against the cap. If you happen to land Lawrence/Fields, maybe you play Cousins in 2021 and take the $10M cap hit in 2022. The only other option is to extend Cousins AGAIN to spread out the signing bonus over multiple years. All terrible options.

The worst possible outcome is this team ends near 8-8 keeping false hope alive and everyone's jobs. That's been the MO for far too long and that complacency has really been nothing but detrimental. We need some new blood here. Nagy and the Bears are 3-0 and they don't even have a QB. Lafluer is having another strong season. Zimmer hasn't beat either of them in two years.

I've never advocated tanking but honestly I think without a horrendous season this team is going to wallow in mediocrity for years because the Wilf's are too chicken to make the tough changes we need.
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Re: Titanic failure game thread

Post by YikesVikes » Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:10 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:56 pm
Well, that's it ... I'm ready to blow this up.

I've been a huge proponent of Mike Zimmer. I've been squarely in the corner of Kirk Cousins since the day they signed him. I've praised Rick Spielman for his draft-day trades. I've been as optimistic as any 50+ year Viking fan could be.

But this isn't working.

How in the world, when all you need is a field goal and get a gift roughing-the-passer penalty, do you go backwards 14 yards and fizzle out with yet another interception?

You do it because you have an absolute joke for an O-line. An O-line situation that has been set up by questionable signings and extensions that have led to no money for the line.

You do it because your coach does everything in his power NOT TO LOSE, rather than to win.

You do it because your quarterback shrinks from the moment almost every time the moment happens. At first, I thought it was a bad snap. Upon further review, it was right at his hip. Not sure what distracted him, but whatever it was, it ended up being another Chinese fire drill in crunch time.

Blow it up. Tank for Trevor. Shoot for 0-16 and throw the bums out.
I want a change at QB because I don't think our oline will ever get fixed. Our current QB cannot overcome this issue. The only answer is to get a QB that can and work to fix the oline to a presentable level.
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Re: Titanic failure game thread

Post by halfgiz » Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:14 pm

I absolutely don't understand why they refused to seriously upgrade the offense of line.
Rick has had how many years? His time should have been up.

Zimmer is no Head Coach, all he is, is a DC.

Awesome job Cook and Jefferson. :thumbsup:
I think we rode Cook to hard today. Hope is injury doesn't cost him games.

We showed improvement but not enough to win in the NFL yet. Maybe next week.
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Re: Titanic failure game thread

Post by Tark » Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:24 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:56 pm
Well, that's it ... I'm ready to blow this up.

I've been a huge proponent of Mike Zimmer. I've been squarely in the corner of Kirk Cousins since the day they signed him. I've praised Rick Spielman for his draft-day trades. I've been as optimistic as any 50+ year Viking fan could be.

But this isn't working.

How in the world, when all you need is a field goal and get a gift roughing-the-passer penalty, do you go backwards 14 yards and fizzle out with yet another interception?

You do it because you have an absolute joke for an O-line. An O-line situation that has been set up by questionable signings and extensions that have led to no money for the line.

You do it because your coach does everything in his power NOT TO LOSE, rather than to win.

You do it because your quarterback shrinks from the moment almost every time the moment happens. At first, I thought it was a bad snap. Upon further review, it was right at his hip. Not sure what distracted him, but whatever it was, it ended up being another Chinese fire drill in crunch time.

Blow it up. Tank for Trevor. Shoot for 0-16 and throw the bums out.
Amen, brother.
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Re: Titanic failure game thread

Post by Mothman » Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:25 pm

S197 wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:10 pm
I think the Vikings may actually blow it up, especially if this continues. What's sad is if Zygi had realized this a year earlier, they'd be in such a better position. Those extensions have essentially crippled the Vikings for years.
They were foolish and it's very discouraging that the Wilfs didn't see the need for major change.
I've never advocated tanking but honestly I think without a horrendous season this team is going to wallow in mediocrity for years because the Wilf's are too chicken to make the tough changes we need.
There's a good chance the Vikes will be "top 5 pick" bad this season whether they want a record like that or not. Hopefully, the Wilfs will understand what needs to be done. The key is getting rid of Spielman. Even if the Vikes go 0-16, if the Wilfs think a coaching and/or QB change will be enough, the Vikes will still be screwed.
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Re: Titanic failure game thread

Post by makila » Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:27 pm

The oline issues are incredible, as they have continued to be there through multiple coaching staff/regimes in the last 15ish seasons. I don't know what the common thread is. It has to be a fundamental way we evaluate the position(s). We are consistently below average to bad as a group. Once in a while an individual has an average season. We don't invest in high, potentially ready now lineman in the draft. Even when we have the capital, like this last draft, we go for prospects we continue to fail to develop.

Jefferson and Cook had great individual games today. Secondary had issues. If we're going to be bad, lets at least see what we have in the young players currently on the roster. Figure this is going to be a theme with the unit all season. Henry is a load, obviously, we had no answer for him. I don't think we realistically have the bodies to on the roster currently.

I'm no fan of the current front office and coaching staff. So no reason to harp there. They need to go imo.
Last edited by makila on Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Titanic failure game thread

Post by MikethePurple » Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:31 pm

Today was actually a perfect game. Jefferson was a huge bright spot and showed that the Vikes really may have something in their young receiver. They actually competed versus the last couple weeks. It was an entertaining game to watch but pulled out the hilarious collapse at the end that I could only laugh at. This season never was going to happen after they came out like they did in Week 1 and then solidified that it wasn't a fluke in Week 2. More losses equal better draft picks and the potential for getting a talented quarterback and maybe will be the push that makes the Wilfs realize the current strategy is a doomed one.
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Re: Titanic failure game thread

Post by Mothman » Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:52 pm

makila wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:27 pm
The oline issues are incredible, as they have continued to be there through multiple coaching staff/regimes in the last 15ish seasons. I don't know what the common thread is. It has to be a fundamental way we evaluate the position(s).
Rick Spielman was hired as VP of Player Personnel in 2006, fifteenish years ago. ;)

More seriously: it might have something to do with how they evaluate OL positions but I also think it has a lot do with how much they value them, particularly guards. That position has long been a weak spot for the Vikings but in all the time Spielman's been with the team, they've never drafted a guard higher than the 4th round. Until recently, they rarely drafted any o-linemen higher than that. Loadholt was taken in R2 in 2009. Kalil was drafted in R1 in 2012.

Since 2017, they've invested more early picks in the OL: Elflein in 2017 (to play center), O'Neill in 2018, Bradbury in 2019 (to replace Elflein at center) and Cleveland in R2 this year. That's six OL players drafted above R4 in Spielman's 14 years with the team, none of them drafted to play guard, although Elflein ended up there.

It's possible to find good guards in the mid-to-late rounds but they haven't had much success doing so and they seem unwilling to invest draft picks in top guard talent despite perpetually struggling on the interior of the line.
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Re: Titanic failure game thread

Post by Dmizzle0 » Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:59 pm

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Re: Titanic failure game thread

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:44 pm

MikethePurple wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:31 pm
Today was actually a perfect game. Jefferson was a huge bright spot and showed that the Vikes really may have something in their young receiver. They actually competed versus the last couple weeks. It was an entertaining game to watch but pulled out the hilarious collapse at the end that I could only laugh at. This season never was going to happen after they came out like they did in Week 1 and then solidified that it wasn't a fluke in Week 2. More losses equal better draft picks and the potential for getting a talented quarterback and maybe will be the push that makes the Wilfs realize the current strategy is a doomed one.
I suppose you're right.

There's only one problem.

I have my doubts that the Wilfs would fire Spielman and/or Zimmer.
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Re: Titanic failure game thread

Post by TSonn » Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:00 pm

I actually think Rick has been a pretty great GM who has been negatively motivated by Zimmer and his meddling for high draft pick defensive players (mostly DBs).

I think about it like this - our head coach is supposed to be some defensive guru, right? If our HC specializes in defense, shouldn't he be able to put together a damn good defense with middle round talent? I'm not sure who has made the final call on these picks but just look at how much draft capital we put in the defense since Zimmer got here:

Rhodes, Floyd, Barr, Kendricks, Waynes, Hughes, Alexander, Crichton, Hunter, Gladney, Danztler - all top 3 round picks, with the bolded guys getting picked in the first round. I mean, c'mon - add in Harrison Smith and Everson Griffen who were already here and ANY coach would get good production out of all that talent.

It would make way more sense to load up the other side of the ball with top talent since our head coach doesn't have an offensive mind. His defensive scheme and playcalling should be able to make up for a lack of top tier talent some years and he should be able to coach up guys picked later in the draft.

I just wonder how many of those top picks were supposed to be OL and Zimmer made a call to grab a DB.
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Re: Titanic failure game thread

Post by MikethePurple » Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:10 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:44 pm
MikethePurple wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:31 pm
Today was actually a perfect game. Jefferson was a huge bright spot and showed that the Vikes really may have something in their young receiver. They actually competed versus the last couple weeks. It was an entertaining game to watch but pulled out the hilarious collapse at the end that I could only laugh at. This season never was going to happen after they came out like they did in Week 1 and then solidified that it wasn't a fluke in Week 2. More losses equal better draft picks and the potential for getting a talented quarterback and maybe will be the push that makes the Wilfs realize the current strategy is a doomed one.
I suppose you're right.

There's only one problem.

I have my doubts that the Wilfs would fire Spielman and/or Zimmer.
Unfortunately, I think you're right too......
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Re: Titanic failure game thread

Post by Mothman » Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:25 pm

TSonn wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:00 pm
I actually think Rick has been a pretty great GM who has been negatively motivated by Zimmer and his meddling for high draft pick defensive players (mostly DBs).

I think about it like this - our head coach is supposed to be some defensive guru, right? If our HC specializes in defense, shouldn't he be able to put together a damn good defense with middle round talent? I'm not sure who has made the final call on these picks but just look at how much draft capital we put in the defense since Zimmer got here:

Rhodes, Floyd, Barr, Kendricks, Waynes, Hughes, Alexander, Crichton, Hunter, Gladney, Danztler - all top 3 round picks, with the bolded guys getting picked in the first round. I mean, c'mon - add in Harrison Smith and Everson Griffen who were already here and ANY coach would get good production out of all that talent.

It would make way more sense to load up the other side of the ball with top talent since our head coach doesn't have an offensive mind. His defensive scheme and playcalling should be able to make up for a lack of top tier talent some years and he should be able to coach up guys picked later in the draft.

I just wonder how many of those top picks were supposed to be OL and Zimmer made a call to grab a DB.
My guess is no more than were actually used on OL because the approach we've seen to OL preceded Zimmer and extends back throughout Spielman's tenure with the team.

Spielman's in charge of the football operation so any deference he's shown to Zimmer when making draft picks and team-building decisions has been his choice. Every pick and personnel move is ultimately his call. Personally, I think he's been a middling GM. He's found some real talent and built some good-but-flawed teams but he's not a terribly logical team-builder.

As for Zimmer... if he truly was a defensive guru, maybe he could make up for a lack of top tier talent but his limitations (and those of his scheme) have become apparent.
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Re: Titanic failure game thread

Post by TSonn » Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:01 pm

Mothman wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:25 pm
TSonn wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:00 pm
I actually think Rick has been a pretty great GM who has been negatively motivated by Zimmer and his meddling for high draft pick defensive players (mostly DBs).

I think about it like this - our head coach is supposed to be some defensive guru, right? If our HC specializes in defense, shouldn't he be able to put together a damn good defense with middle round talent? I'm not sure who has made the final call on these picks but just look at how much draft capital we put in the defense since Zimmer got here:

Rhodes, Floyd, Barr, Kendricks, Waynes, Hughes, Alexander, Crichton, Hunter, Gladney, Danztler - all top 3 round picks, with the bolded guys getting picked in the first round. I mean, c'mon - add in Harrison Smith and Everson Griffen who were already here and ANY coach would get good production out of all that talent.

It would make way more sense to load up the other side of the ball with top talent since our head coach doesn't have an offensive mind. His defensive scheme and playcalling should be able to make up for a lack of top tier talent some years and he should be able to coach up guys picked later in the draft.

I just wonder how many of those top picks were supposed to be OL and Zimmer made a call to grab a DB.
My guess is no more than were actually used on OL because the approach we've seen to OL preceded Zimmer and extends back throughout Spielman's tenure with the team.

Spielman's in charge of the football operation so any deference he's shown to Zimmer when making draft picks and team-building decisions has been his choice. Every pick and personnel move is ultimately his call. Personally, I think he's been a middling GM. He's found some real talent and built some good-but-flawed teams but he's not a terribly logical team-builder.

As for Zimmer... if he truly was a defensive guru, maybe he could make up for a lack of top tier talent but his limitations (and those of his scheme) have become apparent.
Fair enough - maybe I give Rick too much credit for finding Thielen and Diggs - but his lack of building an OL and finding a competent QB when it's the most important position probably negates any late round talent he's found.

It does make me think that losing Teddy might've been where Rick had to start scrambling and we lost our way. Teddy was the perfect QB for Zim (low risk-taking QB) who was able to move around the pocket and make plays out of nothing (make up for Rick's OL woes).

In terms of Zim - it's always baffled me how much draft stock we put into the defense to only have a great defense for 1 year (2017) which was absolutely destroyed when we actually needed them (at CAR, at PHI).

If there are any Zim supporters left... do you think an offensive-minded coach (let's say someone like Matt Nagy, Kyle Shanahan or Sean McVay - all guys who've been available since we got Zim) would've been able to get similar production out of a defense anchored by Smith, Rhodes, Barr, Kendricks, Waynes, Griffen, and Linval?
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Re: Titanic failure game thread

Post by Boon » Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:02 pm

Cook ran for a buck 80. I know run blocking and pass blocking are two separate things but go back and watch the first three games. At least 75% of the pressures are either this clown going into blocks or just not side stepping. He senses pressure thats not there and literally has no idea how to use his blockers. Hes wearing cement cleats. Our oline is decent. The fact that they extended him another two years is mind boggling.

So can the wilfs just cut him and flat out buy out his contract?
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