Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

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YikesVikes
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Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by YikesVikes » Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:53 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:35 am
VikingLord wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:40 pm


OK, but do you think he's going to put up those games consistently this year given the blocking in front of him?
Actually we’re considered a good run blocking team.

But pass blocking? Ugh. We’re still terrible. Maybe worse than ever.

Did y’all see the line on first play of the last drive? The one where we got the roughing the passer call? Garrett Bradbury literally got put on his a$$ by the lineman who got the roughing call. Meanwhile, Dakota Dozier stood there looking for someone to block against the Titans’ 3-man rush instead of doubling the guy who was destroying Bradbury. It was a dumpster fire.

The question isn’t whether Cook can run for 180 again. It’s whether the Vikings will stay in the game enough to get him the carries he needs for 180.
Our QB was late with the read and didn't slide to the right to make the throw. A lot of Cousins Oline issues are further compounded by Cousins. You don't remember and center getting blown up when Brady slides to the left and delivers a 20 yard strike.
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Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by Frozen Rope » Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:20 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:21 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:21 am

Sorry, but the oline can't be used an excuse anymore. It is a flawed Oline no doubt, but we have the numbers from when Cousins is untouched and un-pressured and they are downright awful.

Cousins when kept clean, or on other words when he thinks a receiver is open and chooses to make a throw because he feels it is best option, not because the line is getting beat:
78 pass attempts, 65% completion percentage, 3 TDs, 4 Ints, 453 yards, a 5.8 YPA for a passer rating of 79.9 passer rating.

That isn't bad for a starter, that is bad for a backup QB. He is 33rd in passer rating when kept clean this year and there is no excuse for a veteran QB to be that bad from a clean pocket.

Also,
Patrick Mahomes
Josh Allen
Dak Prescott
Lamar Jackson
Russel Wilson

All have faced more pressure this year than Kirk has, so when you say no QB can overcome the deficiencies on the Oline, it just isn't true.
I don't think I said that. I do believe no QB can overcome deficiencies in an OL consistently, including the ones you've listed.

BTW, you will have a hard time convincing me that the OLs in front of Mahomes, Prescott and Jackson are as bad or worse than the line in front of Cousins. They might be "under pressure", but if you define "under pressure" as the defense is sending more guys at the QB than can be blocked, that is different than "under pressure" being defined as one or more DLs are tossing the guy in front of them aside like a sack of potatoes or straight up bull rushing the guy in front of him back into the QB, which is what Cousins is dealing with.

When a QB can't trust the guys in front of him, he gets skittish, justifiably so.

For guys like Wilson, Mahomes, Jackson, etc., sure, maybe they could handle that slightly better, but how much do you think anyone can really overcome such poor pass blocking?

Also, this shows up in the run game too. I know you are a huge fan of Dalvin Cook. How consistently effective has he been running behind this line? He can't overcome those deficiencies either for the most part even with his superlative skillset. He had a great game against the Titans, but he's struggled as well.

I want to make it clear that I'm not absolving Cousins for his poor decisions or play. He can certainly play better and I think the Vikings have a right to expect him to play better, and I think he would agree with that, but to my untrained eyes, the Vikings front office and coaches have utterly failed to field a pro-level interior OL this year, and that is going to haunt the team for the rest of this season because there is little to nothing they can do about it now.
Great post VL. I don’t need to read anything else
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Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by VikingLord » Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:55 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:08 pm
I just posted the numbers. Is that what they say to you?
The numbers say less to me than what my eyes tell me watching the line play (which was better today against the Texans).

But for purposes of this discussion, you seem intent on putting the majority of blame for the offensive struggles on Cousins. In order to do that, you seem to be claiming that only the RG position on the offensive line is a major problem for the Vikings, and since there are several other good QB's in the league who seem to be able to overcome a similar situation, that proves your point. But those other QBs aren't really facing a similar situation even if a broad look at the stats imply that. When the interior of the Vikings OL breaks down, it *really* breaks down. It doesn't happen on every snap, but it's happened on enough of them that I think it has gotten into Cousins' head a bit and is affecting his confidence.

If they can clean it up and play with more cohesion and consistency, then if Cousins continues to make poor decisions and mistakes I'll be more inclined to focus on him alone. As I noted, today was a better overall performance for the OL, and Cousins looked better too. He made some really tough throws and trusted his receivers to make plays and they delivered. Hard to say if this is the start of a trend, but I am more optimistic than I was when they were 0-2. I still think this is a ~5 win team, but at least they're going to be competitive.
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Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:21 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:55 pm


The numbers say less to me than what my eyes tell me watching the line play (which was better today against the Texans).
Was it better against the Texans?

Pressure percentage by week:
Week 1: 25.8 %
Week 2: 37.9 %
Week 3: 60 %
Week 4: 42.3 %
So better than last week, but Cousins was pressured more than any other week this week.
VikingLord wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:55 pm
But for purposes of this discussion, you seem intent on putting the majority of blame for the offensive struggles on Cousins. In order to do that, you seem to be claiming that only the RG position on the offensive line is a major problem for the Vikings, and since there are several other good QB's in the league who seem to be able to overcome a similar situation, that proves your point.
I honestly don't need to point to other RGs to prove my point about Cousins. I just need to point to his actual play on the field in week 1 and week 2, particularly when the QB had a clean pocket. He was horrible compared to other QBs in a similar situation (no pass rush getting to him).
VikingLord wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:55 pm
But those other QBs aren't really facing a similar situation even if a broad look at the stats imply that. When the interior of the Vikings OL breaks down, it *really* breaks down. It doesn't happen on every snap, but it's happened on enough of them that I think it has gotten into Cousins' head a bit and is affecting his confidence.
How do you know those other QBs aren't really facing a similar situation? Did you watch their games? Also, if Cousins is so fragile that 10 pressures a game ruin him to the point that even when he isn't pressured he sucks, we are screwed with him at QB.
VikingLord wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:55 pm
If they can clean it up and play with more cohesion and consistency, then if Cousins continues to make poor decisions and mistakes I'll be more inclined to focus on him alone. As I noted, today was a better overall performance for the OL, and Cousins looked better too. He made some really tough throws and trusted his receivers to make plays and they delivered. Hard to say if this is the start of a trend, but I am more optimistic than I was when they were 0-2. I still think this is a ~5 win team, but at least they're going to be competitive.
I don't think you should ever focus Cousins' poor play alone, but you should stop making excuses for that poor play. The Oline isn't perfect, it isn't even average. It needs to be upgraded, but a better QB behind this line hides most of its flaws. Cousins puts a magnifying glass on those flaws and that is why as long as he is here, we will perpetually be complaining about the Oline.
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Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by VikingLord » Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:32 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:21 pm
I don't think you should ever focus Cousins' poor play alone, but you should stop making excuses for that poor play. The Oline isn't perfect, it isn't even average. It needs to be upgraded, but a better QB behind this line hides most of its flaws. Cousins puts a magnifying glass on those flaws and that is why as long as he is here, we will perpetually be complaining about the Oline.
I don't think I'm excusing Cousins at all. My intent is to point out that until Cousins gets consistent blocking from his interior OL it is not possible to fairly evaluate his play, at least in isolation.

I also disagree that a better QB behind this line hides most of its flaws.

If you want to make that claim about Cousins, then doesn't it stand for Cook too? We both know you believe Cook is one of the best RBs in the NFL, but he didn't do squat in the first two losses. Is that all on him? Would a "better" RB have done better given the same set of circumstances Cook faced?
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Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:10 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:32 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:21 pm
I don't think you should ever focus Cousins' poor play alone, but you should stop making excuses for that poor play. The Oline isn't perfect, it isn't even average. It needs to be upgraded, but a better QB behind this line hides most of its flaws. Cousins puts a magnifying glass on those flaws and that is why as long as he is here, we will perpetually be complaining about the Oline.
I don't think I'm excusing Cousins at all. My intent is to point out that until Cousins gets consistent blocking from his interior OL it is not possible to fairly evaluate his play, at least in isolation.

I also disagree that a better QB behind this line hides most of its flaws.

If you want to make that claim about Cousins, then doesn't it stand for Cook too? We both know you believe Cook is one of the best RBs in the NFL, but he didn't do squat in the first two losses. Is that all on him? Would a "better" RB have done better given the same set of circumstances Cook faced?
Cook can only run when a run is called and despite a good YPA in both those first two games, the run game was abandoned when the QB and defense put the team in a big hole.

If he had run for 3 YPA and fumbled twice I wouldn't excuse that away on the Oline, I would say the extension was a terrible mistake. That isnt what happened though.

Without Cook this offense is right there with Jets in terms of futility. He is the difference maker.
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Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by VikingLord » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:30 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:10 pm
Cook can only run when a run is called and despite a good YPA in both those first two games, the run game was abandoned when the QB and defense put the team in a big hole.

If he had run for 3 YPA and fumbled twice I wouldn't excuse that away on the Oline, I would say the extension was a terrible mistake. That isnt what happened though.

Without Cook this offense is right there with Jets in terms of futility. He is the difference maker.
You're making excuses for Cook's performances in the first two games.

Either he is a difference maker as you claim and can overcome the poor blocking in front of him consistently, or he's as subject to it in the end as Cousins.

If the interior blocking improves, both Cousins and Cook are going to look better (as both have in the last two games), and the strengths both bring to the offense will be on display.

I also don't think that if Cook had (or has) a single game where he runs for 3 YPA and fumbles twice the extension is a mistake. The extension is probably a mistake in the bigger picture regardless of what Cook does for reasons Kapp and others have already hashed over in other threads, but as far as this season goes the extension becomes a mistake if Cook gets injured again and has to sit out for an extended period of time. Hopefully that doesn't happen because I agree with you that Cook is a difference maker and a big part of the offense. Any chance the Vikings have of a decent season likely goes through him being healthy and effective.
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Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:20 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:30 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:10 pm
Cook can only run when a run is called and despite a good YPA in both those first two games, the run game was abandoned when the QB and defense put the team in a big hole.

If he had run for 3 YPA and fumbled twice I wouldn't excuse that away on the Oline, I would say the extension was a terrible mistake. That isnt what happened though.

Without Cook this offense is right there with Jets in terms of futility. He is the difference maker.
You're making excuses for Cook's performances in the first two games.

Either he is a difference maker as you claim and can overcome the poor blocking in front of him consistently, or he's as subject to it in the end as Cousins.

If the interior blocking improves, both Cousins and Cook are going to look better (as both have in the last two games), and the strengths both bring to the offense will be on display.

I also don't think that if Cook had (or has) a single game where he runs for 3 YPA and fumbles twice the extension is a mistake. The extension is probably a mistake in the bigger picture regardless of what Cook does for reasons Kapp and others have already hashed over in other threads, but as far as this season goes the extension becomes a mistake if Cook gets injured again and has to sit out for an extended period of time. Hopefully that doesn't happen because I agree with you that Cook is a difference maker and a big part of the offense. Any chance the Vikings have of a decent season likely goes through him being healthy and effective.
I was not making an excuse for his performance, I was pointing out he actually played well the first two weeks. He didn't need an excuse made for him.

An excuse would have been blaming the Oline for a 3 YPA day. Now, that may well be a valid excuse some days, but it would still be an excuse. I would also never make that excuse for the RB if it was proven that even when the Oline opened holes for him, he still sucked.
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