Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
halfgiz
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2089
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:38 pm
x 62

Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by halfgiz » Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:38 am

After 2 weeks of play, here is where the NFL has Cousins ranked. 30th
https://www.nfl.com/news/qb-index-week- ... -hits-top-

We aren't paying him that kind of money for him to play like that. :confused:
Before anyone says it not all Cousins fault. He owns that 30th rating...not anybody else.
0 x

User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6685
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 314

Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by VikingLord » Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:02 pm

halfgiz wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:38 am
After 2 weeks of play, here is where the NFL has Cousins ranked. 30th
https://www.nfl.com/news/qb-index-week- ... -hits-top-

We aren't paying him that kind of money for him to play like that. :confused:
Before anyone says it not all Cousins fault. He owns that 30th rating...not anybody else.
He owns it, but the stats should have offsets for offensive line and running game performance to accurately rank QB performance. Given the horrible performance of the interior line against the pass rush and inability to consistently open holes for the Vikings exceptional runners, Cousins isn't being put into a situation most pro QBs would be able to show what they can do. I have no doubt his ranking is being affected by that.

Could he do better? Probably. Is it reasonable to believe he can overcome the deficiencies in front of him? I don't think so. I can go further and say there are maybe 3 QBs in the league who might be able to overcome those, but none of them would be able to do it consistently.

They could also take that adjusted ranked performance and assess it for value by including the contract number for the QB. That is where I believe Cousins would be nearer to the bottom and own the lower ranking as I have no doubt that even with the statistical improvement he'd likely see once the OL performance is factored in, his heavy cap number would more than offset that in terms of value.
1 x

StumpHunter
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2095
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 320

Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:21 am

VikingLord wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:02 pm
halfgiz wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:38 am
After 2 weeks of play, here is where the NFL has Cousins ranked. 30th
https://www.nfl.com/news/qb-index-week- ... -hits-top-

We aren't paying him that kind of money for him to play like that. :confused:
Before anyone says it not all Cousins fault. He owns that 30th rating...not anybody else.
He owns it, but the stats should have offsets for offensive line and running game performance to accurately rank QB performance. Given the horrible performance of the interior line against the pass rush and inability to consistently open holes for the Vikings exceptional runners, Cousins isn't being put into a situation most pro QBs would be able to show what they can do. I have no doubt his ranking is being affected by that.

Could he do better? Probably. Is it reasonable to believe he can overcome the deficiencies in front of him? I don't think so. I can go further and say there are maybe 3 QBs in the league who might be able to overcome those, but none of them would be able to do it consistently.

They could also take that adjusted ranked performance and assess it for value by including the contract number for the QB. That is where I believe Cousins would be nearer to the bottom and own the lower ranking as I have no doubt that even with the statistical improvement he'd likely see once the OL performance is factored in, his heavy cap number would more than offset that in terms of value.
Sorry, but the oline can't be used an excuse anymore. It is a flawed Oline no doubt, but we have the numbers from when Cousins is untouched and un-pressured and they are downright awful.

Cousins when kept clean, or on other words when he thinks a receiver is open and chooses to make a throw because he feels it is best option, not because the line is getting beat:
78 pass attempts, 65% completion percentage, 3 TDs, 4 Ints, 453 yards, a 5.8 YPA for a passer rating of 79.9 passer rating.

That isn't bad for a starter, that is bad for a backup QB. He is 33rd in passer rating when kept clean this year and there is no excuse for a veteran QB to be that bad from a clean pocket.

Also,
Patrick Mahomes
Josh Allen
Dak Prescott
Lamar Jackson
Russel Wilson

All have faced more pressure this year than Kirk has, so when you say no QB can overcome the deficiencies on the Oline, it just isn't true.
0 x

User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6685
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 314

Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by VikingLord » Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:21 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:21 am
VikingLord wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:02 pm


He owns it, but the stats should have offsets for offensive line and running game performance to accurately rank QB performance. Given the horrible performance of the interior line against the pass rush and inability to consistently open holes for the Vikings exceptional runners, Cousins isn't being put into a situation most pro QBs would be able to show what they can do. I have no doubt his ranking is being affected by that.

Could he do better? Probably. Is it reasonable to believe he can overcome the deficiencies in front of him? I don't think so. I can go further and say there are maybe 3 QBs in the league who might be able to overcome those, but none of them would be able to do it consistently.

They could also take that adjusted ranked performance and assess it for value by including the contract number for the QB. That is where I believe Cousins would be nearer to the bottom and own the lower ranking as I have no doubt that even with the statistical improvement he'd likely see once the OL performance is factored in, his heavy cap number would more than offset that in terms of value.
Sorry, but the oline can't be used an excuse anymore. It is a flawed Oline no doubt, but we have the numbers from when Cousins is untouched and un-pressured and they are downright awful.

Cousins when kept clean, or on other words when he thinks a receiver is open and chooses to make a throw because he feels it is best option, not because the line is getting beat:
78 pass attempts, 65% completion percentage, 3 TDs, 4 Ints, 453 yards, a 5.8 YPA for a passer rating of 79.9 passer rating.

That isn't bad for a starter, that is bad for a backup QB. He is 33rd in passer rating when kept clean this year and there is no excuse for a veteran QB to be that bad from a clean pocket.

Also,
Patrick Mahomes
Josh Allen
Dak Prescott
Lamar Jackson
Russel Wilson

All have faced more pressure this year than Kirk has, so when you say no QB can overcome the deficiencies on the Oline, it just isn't true.
I don't think I said that. I do believe no QB can overcome deficiencies in an OL consistently, including the ones you've listed.

BTW, you will have a hard time convincing me that the OLs in front of Mahomes, Prescott and Jackson are as bad or worse than the line in front of Cousins. They might be "under pressure", but if you define "under pressure" as the defense is sending more guys at the QB than can be blocked, that is different than "under pressure" being defined as one or more DLs are tossing the guy in front of them aside like a sack of potatoes or straight up bull rushing the guy in front of him back into the QB, which is what Cousins is dealing with.

When a QB can't trust the guys in front of him, he gets skittish, justifiably so.

For guys like Wilson, Mahomes, Jackson, etc., sure, maybe they could handle that slightly better, but how much do you think anyone can really overcome such poor pass blocking?

Also, this shows up in the run game too. I know you are a huge fan of Dalvin Cook. How consistently effective has he been running behind this line? He can't overcome those deficiencies either for the most part even with his superlative skillset. He had a great game against the Titans, but he's struggled as well.

I want to make it clear that I'm not absolving Cousins for his poor decisions or play. He can certainly play better and I think the Vikings have a right to expect him to play better, and I think he would agree with that, but to my untrained eyes, the Vikings front office and coaches have utterly failed to field a pro-level interior OL this year, and that is going to haunt the team for the rest of this season because there is little to nothing they can do about it now.
1 x

StumpHunter
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2095
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 320

Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:48 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:21 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:21 am

Sorry, but the oline can't be used an excuse anymore. It is a flawed Oline no doubt, but we have the numbers from when Cousins is untouched and un-pressured and they are downright awful.

Cousins when kept clean, or on other words when he thinks a receiver is open and chooses to make a throw because he feels it is best option, not because the line is getting beat:
78 pass attempts, 65% completion percentage, 3 TDs, 4 Ints, 453 yards, a 5.8 YPA for a passer rating of 79.9 passer rating.

That isn't bad for a starter, that is bad for a backup QB. He is 33rd in passer rating when kept clean this year and there is no excuse for a veteran QB to be that bad from a clean pocket.

Also,
Patrick Mahomes
Josh Allen
Dak Prescott
Lamar Jackson
Russel Wilson

All have faced more pressure this year than Kirk has, so when you say no QB can overcome the deficiencies on the Oline, it just isn't true.
I don't think I said that. I do believe no QB can overcome deficiencies in an OL consistently, including the ones you've listed.

BTW, you will have a hard time convincing me that the OLs in front of Mahomes, Prescott and Jackson are as bad or worse than the line in front of Cousins. They might be "under pressure", but if you define "under pressure" as the defense is sending more guys at the QB than can be blocked, that is different than "under pressure" being defined as one or more DLs are tossing the guy in front of them aside like a sack of potatoes or straight up bull rushing the guy in front of him back into the QB, which is what Cousins is dealing with.

When a QB can't trust the guys in front of him, he gets skittish, justifiably so.

For guys like Wilson, Mahomes, Jackson, etc., sure, maybe they could handle that slightly better, but how much do you think anyone can really overcome such poor pass blocking?

Also, this shows up in the run game too. I know you are a huge fan of Dalvin Cook. How consistently effective has he been running behind this line? He can't overcome those deficiencies either for the most part even with his superlative skillset. He had a great game against the Titans, but he's struggled as well.

I want to make it clear that I'm not absolving Cousins for his poor decisions or play. He can certainly play better and I think the Vikings have a right to expect him to play better, and I think he would agree with that, but to my untrained eyes, the Vikings front office and coaches have utterly failed to field a pro-level interior OL this year, and that is going to haunt the team for the rest of this season because there is little to nothing they can do about it now.
You can have the worst RG in the NFL and still have a bad QB. Patrick Mahomes' RG was Mike Remmers on Monday. He seemed to do alright beating up on one of the better defenses in the NFL. One of the worst guards in football is currently blocking for the early leader in the MVP race in Buffalo. It isn't impossible to play well with poor guard performance.

Is the line making Cousins job harder at times? Yep. Every QB's line does at times, this isn't unique to Cousins. Has he sucked when the line allows no pressure? More than any other full time starter in the NFL this year outside of Carson Wentz. So how can you say it is even the majority of the line's fault, when even with all day to throw and no pressure he still throws picks and struggles with accuracy? The numbers don't lie.
0 x

User avatar
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 12321
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii
x 464

Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by S197 » Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:08 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:21 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:21 am

Sorry, but the oline can't be used an excuse anymore. It is a flawed Oline no doubt, but we have the numbers from when Cousins is untouched and un-pressured and they are downright awful.

Cousins when kept clean, or on other words when he thinks a receiver is open and chooses to make a throw because he feels it is best option, not because the line is getting beat:
78 pass attempts, 65% completion percentage, 3 TDs, 4 Ints, 453 yards, a 5.8 YPA for a passer rating of 79.9 passer rating.

That isn't bad for a starter, that is bad for a backup QB. He is 33rd in passer rating when kept clean this year and there is no excuse for a veteran QB to be that bad from a clean pocket.

Also,
Patrick Mahomes
Josh Allen
Dak Prescott
Lamar Jackson
Russel Wilson

All have faced more pressure this year than Kirk has, so when you say no QB can overcome the deficiencies on the Oline, it just isn't true.
I don't think I said that. I do believe no QB can overcome deficiencies in an OL consistently, including the ones you've listed.

BTW, you will have a hard time convincing me that the OLs in front of Mahomes, Prescott and Jackson are as bad or worse than the line in front of Cousins. They might be "under pressure", but if you define "under pressure" as the defense is sending more guys at the QB than can be blocked, that is different than "under pressure" being defined as one or more DLs are tossing the guy in front of them aside like a sack of potatoes or straight up bull rushing the guy in front of him back into the QB, which is what Cousins is dealing with.

When a QB can't trust the guys in front of him, he gets skittish, justifiably so.

For guys like Wilson, Mahomes, Jackson, etc., sure, maybe they could handle that slightly better, but how much do you think anyone can really overcome such poor pass blocking?

Also, this shows up in the run game too. I know you are a huge fan of Dalvin Cook. How consistently effective has he been running behind this line? He can't overcome those deficiencies either for the most part even with his superlative skillset. He had a great game against the Titans, but he's struggled as well.

I want to make it clear that I'm not absolving Cousins for his poor decisions or play. He can certainly play better and I think the Vikings have a right to expect him to play better, and I think he would agree with that, but to my untrained eyes, the Vikings front office and coaches have utterly failed to field a pro-level interior OL this year, and that is going to haunt the team for the rest of this season because there is little to nothing they can do about it now.
Cook just had a career game. I think it ranks as #2 among all Viking RBs.
0 x

User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6685
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 314

Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by VikingLord » Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:40 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:48 pm
You can have the worst RG in the NFL and still have a bad QB. Patrick Mahomes' RG was Mike Remmers on Monday. He seemed to do alright beating up on one of the better defenses in the NFL. One of the worst guards in football is currently blocking for the early leader in the MVP race in Buffalo. It isn't impossible to play well with poor guard performance.
Show me a play where Remmers got tossed aside like a lightweight blocking dummy in that game. Remmers might be bad, but I doubt he ever had a game where his opponent simply chucked him aside like Samia got chucked this year.

Also, one poor guard doesn't equal two poor guards and a poor center. Cousins is dealing with all 3 interior linemen playing as poorly as Remmers ever has in his entire career from what I've seen, and maybe worse.
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:48 pm
Is the line making Cousins job harder at times? Yep. Every QB's line does at times, this isn't unique to Cousins. Has he sucked when the line allows no pressure? More than any other full time starter in the NFL this year outside of Carson Wentz. So how can you say it is even the majority of the line's fault, when even with all day to throw and no pressure he still throws picks and struggles with accuracy? The numbers don't lie.
Well, the only way I can explain it is PTSD. Essentially, Cousins doesn't trust his interior linemen. He doesn't partially trust them or fear they might have a bad play or two - he flat-out doesn't trust them at all. And because he doesn't trust them, he assumes the worst on every snap and it affects him even when he does get a clean pocket. That's a reasonable explanation for what we're seeing.
0 x

User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6685
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 314

Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by VikingLord » Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:40 pm

S197 wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:08 pm
Cook just had a career game. I think it ranks as #2 among all Viking RBs.
OK, but do you think he's going to put up those games consistently this year given the blocking in front of him?
0 x

User avatar
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 12321
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii
x 464

Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by S197 » Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:39 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:40 pm
S197 wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:08 pm
Cook just had a career game. I think it ranks as #2 among all Viking RBs.
OK, but do you think he's going to put up those games consistently this year given the blocking in front of him?
Well putting up career numbers on a consistent basis is unrealistic but I think like last year he will be productive barring injuries.

The bigger problem is when the run game breaks down, there's nothing to really fall back on. The success and failure of the offense is tied to the run game. Stop the run and the Vikings offense is non-existent.
1 x

User avatar
vikeinmontana
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2911
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:23 pm
x 50

Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by vikeinmontana » Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:55 am

S197 wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:39 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:40 pm


OK, but do you think he's going to put up those games consistently this year given the blocking in front of him?
Well putting up career numbers on a consistent basis is unrealistic
:shock:

Wait a minute. You DONT think Dalvin will put up 180 a game?!
0 x
i'm ready for a beer.

User avatar
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8194
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 843

Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:35 am

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:40 pm
S197 wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:08 pm
Cook just had a career game. I think it ranks as #2 among all Viking RBs.
OK, but do you think he's going to put up those games consistently this year given the blocking in front of him?
Actually we’re considered a good run blocking team.

But pass blocking? Ugh. We’re still terrible. Maybe worse than ever.

Did y’all see the line on first play of the last drive? The one where we got the roughing the passer call? Garrett Bradbury literally got put on his a$$ by the lineman who got the roughing call. Meanwhile, Dakota Dozier stood there looking for someone to block against the Titans’ 3-man rush instead of doubling the guy who was destroying Bradbury. It was a dumpster fire.

The question isn’t whether Cook can run for 180 again. It’s whether the Vikings will stay in the game enough to get him the carries he needs for 180.
0 x
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.

User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6685
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 314

Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by VikingLord » Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:05 pm

S197 wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:39 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:40 pm


OK, but do you think he's going to put up those games consistently this year given the blocking in front of him?
Well putting up career numbers on a consistent basis is unrealistic but I think like last year he will be productive barring injuries.

The bigger problem is when the run game breaks down, there's nothing to really fall back on. The success and failure of the offense is tied to the run game. Stop the run and the Vikings offense is non-existent.
Well, in two of three games so far Cook hasn't put up much of anything and really hasn't been much of a factor. I guess what I'm driving at is who or what is primarily responsible for those results. If we both agree its not Cook himself, then it's either the playcalling, the OL, the lack of a credible passing game, or a combination of all three.

I guess my point is, regardless of what explains it, that what that explains it isn't going to fixed this season.
0 x

StumpHunter
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2095
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 320

Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by StumpHunter » Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:13 pm

The numbers aren't terrible for the Oline outside of RG.

The LG has given up the 26th least pressures out of 55 qualified guards. Right in the middle of the pack.
The Center has given up the the 3rd least.
The LT is tied for #1 among tackles for least pressures
The RT has given up the 41st least out of 61 qualifying tackles.


And then we have the RGs who combined have given up the most pressures in the NFL at guard.

In the most recent game, they all really struggled outside of Reiff who is having the best year of his career and Cousins had the best game of the season. His failures and successes appear to be completely independent of the Oline succeeding or failing this year and much more reliant on the run game succeeding. Something that can't happen if he and the defense keep putting the team in a bad spot early.
0 x

User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6685
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 314

Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by VikingLord » Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:14 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:13 pm
The numbers aren't terrible for the Oline outside of RG.

The LG has given up the 26th least pressures out of 55 qualified guards. Right in the middle of the pack.
The Center has given up the the 3rd least.
The LT is tied for #1 among tackles for least pressures
The RT has given up the 41st least out of 61 qualifying tackles.


And then we have the RGs who combined have given up the most pressures in the NFL at guard.

In the most recent game, they all really struggled outside of Reiff who is having the best year of his career and Cousins had the best game of the season. His failures and successes appear to be completely independent of the Oline succeeding or failing this year and much more reliant on the run game succeeding. Something that can't happen if he and the defense keep putting the team in a bad spot early.
So you're claiming that the Vikings really only have an issue at right guard?
0 x

StumpHunter
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2095
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 320

Re: Breakdown of Cousin's Week 2 Game.

Post by StumpHunter » Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:08 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:14 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:13 pm
The numbers aren't terrible for the Oline outside of RG.

The LG has given up the 26th least pressures out of 55 qualified guards. Right in the middle of the pack.
The Center has given up the the 3rd least.
The LT is tied for #1 among tackles for least pressures
The RT has given up the 41st least out of 61 qualifying tackles.


And then we have the RGs who combined have given up the most pressures in the NFL at guard.

In the most recent game, they all really struggled outside of Reiff who is having the best year of his career and Cousins had the best game of the season. His failures and successes appear to be completely independent of the Oline succeeding or failing this year and much more reliant on the run game succeeding. Something that can't happen if he and the defense keep putting the team in a bad spot early.
So you're claiming that the Vikings really only have an issue at right guard?
I just posted the numbers. Is that what they say to you?
0 x