Imagine the possibility (Mr. Lawrence)

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S197
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Re: Imagine the possibility (Mr. Lawrence)

Post by S197 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:55 pm

Mothman wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:22 pm
I don't think they know how to gauge when their team is an actual contender and when it's not. That's how we get moves like the Bradford trade and Cousins' deal. They think they're opening a Super Bowl window that wasn't there in the first place (or keeping it open).
I'm not overly critical for the initial 3-year fully guaranteed contract. I mean, we made it to the NFCC with Case Keenum so it was reasonable to think that Cousins could put them over the top. It was a risk at the time that I think was reasonable, particularly with the other options, which were to give Keenum a big pay day or roll the dice on Teddy who almost lost his leg from a non-contact freak injury.

I think the major mistake was in the extension. The guy was in the system for two years and by then they should have realized what they had. Or at minimum, mitigate the risk with an extension that had voidable years at the end, not an early vested contract that is only advantageous to Cousins.

My only guess is they expected the cap to go way up under the new TV deal, which was entirely possible pre-COVID. But even then, the red flags were pretty abundant.
Which is why the Vikes should can Spielman after this season, hire a new GM, cut Cousins (take the full $41 million hit next year if that's allowed) and look to the future. Just accept the painful consequences and begin rebuilding in earnest (and please, let's not get into the debate about rebuilding means again).
Unfortunately there's no way to take the full $41M cap hit next year. When they did the extension, they lowered this year's cap by converting a lot of what he was owed into a signing bonus. Signing bonuses are spread out over the life of the contract, so in this case, $10M per year. When you do that, you have to pay it out over that span no matter what. So whether he's kept, cut, or traded, he's at minimum a $10M cap hit in 2022.
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Re: Imagine the possibility (Mr. Lawrence)

Post by Mothman » Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:15 pm

S197 wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:55 pm
I'm not overly critical for the initial 3-year fully guaranteed contract. I mean, we made it to the NFCC with Case Keenum so it was reasonable to think that Cousins could put them over the top.
I think it was more magical thinking than sound strategy but it's water under the bridge now. It made sense to sign him but I don't think it made sense to give him the deal he received.
I think the major mistake was in the extension. The guy was in the system for two years and by then they should have realized what they had. Or at minimum, mitigate the risk with an extension that had voidable years at the end, not an early vested contract that is only advantageous to Cousins.
I definitely agree that the extension was the bigger mistake.
Unfortunately there's no way to take the full $41M cap hit next year. When they did the extension, they lowered this year's cap by converting a lot of what he was owed into a signing bonus. Signing bonuses are spread out over the life of the contract, so in this case, $10M per year. When you do that, you have to pay it out over that span no matter what. So whether he's kept, cut, or traded, he's at minimum a $10M cap hit in 2022.
I see. Thank you for explaining that. Well, a $10 million cap hit isn't debilitating, just unfortunate. At least if they take the big cap hit before March of '21 they can avoid ending up on the hook for $45 million in '22.
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Re: Imagine the possibility (Mr. Lawrence)

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:46 am

S197 wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:14 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:07 pm
So you re saying our cap genius is an idiot
I don't know if it's Brez's fault, at minimum Cousins agent deserves a mega raise. I think Spielman and Zimmer just had way too much confidence in him despite all the signs that this isn't a $45M guy. Why they didn't give themselves an out and allowed Cousins to double dip (with a triple dip also a high probability) is beyond me. This could easily turn into a NO/Drew Brees type situation where we're paying him years after he's gone.
This is why I hated the first contract. It allowed his team to screw us twice. Why would the VIkings sign someone for such a short time knowing the market is continuing to rise. Why would they not give themselves and out.
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Re: Imagine the possibility (Mr. Lawrence)

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:37 am

YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:46 am
S197 wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:14 pm


I don't know if it's Brez's fault, at minimum Cousins agent deserves a mega raise. I think Spielman and Zimmer just had way too much confidence in him despite all the signs that this isn't a $45M guy. Why they didn't give themselves an out and allowed Cousins to double dip (with a triple dip also a high probability) is beyond me. This could easily turn into a NO/Drew Brees type situation where we're paying him years after he's gone.
This is why I hated the first contract. It allowed his team to screw us twice. Why would the VIkings sign someone for such a short time knowing the market is continuing to rise. Why would they not give themselves and out.
Matt Stafford got an extension the year prior to Cousins and if you look at his 5 year deal, he had an out after year three but was still on the books for a reasonable amount in year 4 and 5. Essentially two years of a team option.

Now, Stafford's contract was still horrible, and I don't understand paying a guy who has proven to be a slightly above average starter and a .500 QB like he is Aaron Rodgers, but at least the Lions didn't have to fork out a bunch more guaranteed money after only 2 years on his deal and had the option to see how things played out.

Man is it depressing when the fricken Lions screw up something less than the Vikings.
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Re: Imagine the possibility (Mr. Lawrence)

Post by 808vikingsfan » Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:57 am

http://www.tankathon.com/nfl


MOCK DRAFT through week 3
1 Atlanta Trevor Lawrence - QB
2 NY Giants Penei Sewell - OT
3 Minnesota Justin Fields - QB
4 Denver Micah Parsons - OLB/ILB
5 NY Jets Ja'Marr Chase - WR

Looking forward to week 6 vs ATL.

Too bad the Vikings didn't play the Jets and Broncos this year. Could have controlled their own destiny.
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Re: Imagine the possibility (Mr. Lawrence)

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:54 am

808vikingsfan wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:57 am
http://www.tankathon.com/nfl


MOCK DRAFT through week 3
1 Atlanta Trevor Lawrence - QB
2 NY Giants Penei Sewell - OT
3 Minnesota Justin Fields - QB
4 Denver Micah Parsons - OLB/ILB
5 NY Jets Ja'Marr Chase - WR

Looking forward to week 6 vs ATL.

Too bad the Vikings didn't play the Jets and Broncos this year. Could have controlled their own destiny.
Ah, but the Jets do play the Broncos this week. I am picking the Jets to win in my pickems because they are at home and not starting their 3rd string QB, but I think we actually want the Broncos to win since there is a chance they won't pick a QB even if Fields or Lawrence are there. A small chance, but they seem infatuated with Locke.
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Re: Imagine the possibility (Mr. Lawrence)

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:47 am

Dang it, Jets lost and I don't see anyway they beat anyone this year. I think the Lawrence dream is dead.

Anyone watch that garbage yesterday? Greg Williams should be banned from coaching forever with how he still clearly coaches his players to go after the QB late.
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Re: Imagine the possibility (Mr. Lawrence)

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:01 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:47 am
Dang it, Jets lost and I don't see anyway they beat anyone this year. I think the Lawrence dream is dead.

Anyone watch that garbage yesterday? Greg Williams should be banned from coaching forever with how he still clearly coaches his players to go after the QB late.
DO NOT give up hope.

Did you see Sam Darnold's touchdown run against the Broncos? He shredded that defense. Obviously HE is not the Jets' problem. In fact, Sam Darnold is the best Jets QB since Joe Namath. A sure-fire HOFer. A right-handed Steve Young. He throws. He runs. He's great. GREAT, I tell you!

Surely Jets management can keep those blinders on for one more draft.
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Re: Imagine the possibility (Mr. Lawrence)

Post by Cliff » Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:21 am

"And with the first overall pick in the draft the Vikings choose ... the CB that was ranked 6th best on most draft boards!"

Rick was going to trade down but he couldn't get enough 6th round picks.

Seriously though. It's time for the current management and coaches to hit the road. We've got a Marv Lewis situation on our hands. Do we need another decade to prove it like the Bengals did?
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Re: Imagine the possibility (Mr. Lawrence)

Post by VikingLord » Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:35 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:47 am
Dang it, Jets lost and I don't see anyway they beat anyone this year. I think the Lawrence dream is dead.

Anyone watch that garbage yesterday? Greg Williams should be banned from coaching forever with how he still clearly coaches his players to go after the QB late.
The 2020 Vikings are going to win at least 5 games. There's no way this team goes winless. They're bad, but not that bad.

The Jets, OTOH, are that bad. There is a real chance they go winless or at most win a game.

Maybe I'm jaded at this point, but I just don't buy into the "we need this savior to put us into contention" trope anymore. First there was Herschel Walker. He was the missing link, the guy who would put them over the top and who was worth trading the farm for. Then there was Brett Favre. Surely he'd do it. Or several less-heralded, but still key guys. If the Vikings just got this guy or that guy.

No, that isn't the answer. Its a symptom of a problem.

The answer is a sound overall strategy and a consistent approach to implementing that strategy. A GM who complements a head coach who work together to find and acquire players who then fit into an overall scheme that makes a team competitive year in and year out. How does a fan know when their team is doing that and on the right road? When they feel like their team no longer needs to find the "savior" each offseason. When each offseason is about filling in depth and strengthening the overall team rather than finding the missing piece and having to swing for the fences with risky picks, trades or FA moves.

The mere fact Lawrence is being talked about this way tells us everything we need to know about where the team is and where we all feel it is headed. Its not a good sign.
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Re: Imagine the possibility (Mr. Lawrence)

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:28 am

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:35 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:47 am
Dang it, Jets lost and I don't see anyway they beat anyone this year. I think the Lawrence dream is dead.

Anyone watch that garbage yesterday? Greg Williams should be banned from coaching forever with how he still clearly coaches his players to go after the QB late.
The 2020 Vikings are going to win at least 5 games. There's no way this team goes winless. They're bad, but not that bad.
Really?

The next four games, we’ve got the Texans, Seahawks, Falcons and Packers. We will be underdogs in every game.

Then the Lions, who choked away a game against the Bears and just beat a good Cardinals team.

Then the Bears on the road, where we never win, and the Cowboys.

That’s 10 games. Name me the wins. We are better than exactly zero of those teams.

Down the stretch, we’ve got the Bucs, Bears and Saints.

That leaves the Panthers, Jags and Lions. We gonna sweep those? Cuz we’re gonna have to in order to sniff 5 wins. I know, you’re going to say we’re better. Well, each of those teams has won a game so far, which is more than we can say for the Vikings.

One thing I’ll agree with you about ... it’s gonna take more than Trevor Lawrence to wash away the stink of this organization.
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Re: Imagine the possibility (Mr. Lawrence)

Post by VikingLord » Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:12 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:28 am
VikingLord wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:35 am


The 2020 Vikings are going to win at least 5 games. There's no way this team goes winless. They're bad, but not that bad.
Really?

The next four games, we’ve got the Texans, Seahawks, Falcons and Packers. We will be underdogs in every game.

Then the Lions, who choked away a game against the Bears and just beat a good Cardinals team.

Then the Bears on the road, where we never win, and the Cowboys.

That’s 10 games. Name me the wins. We are better than exactly zero of those teams.

Down the stretch, we’ve got the Bucs, Bears and Saints.

That leaves the Panthers, Jags and Lions. We gonna sweep those? Cuz we’re gonna have to in order to sniff 5 wins. I know, you’re going to say we’re better. Well, each of those teams has won a game so far, which is more than we can say for the Vikings.

One thing I’ll agree with you about ... it’s gonna take more than Trevor Lawrence to wash away the stink of this organization.
I've never been very good at predictions, but in looking at the overall talent of the team and the fact that while I think the interior OL issues are intractable and will hamstring the offense the rest of the year, the defense is likely to settle down and improve over the year. While the offense has shown no consistency, they have moved the ball well at times and I think do possess a lot of talent at the skill positions.

I think this Vikings team is a bad team. They'll be drafting top ten. But I don't think they're #1 draft pick bad. They're going to win a handful of games, maybe a few of them surprises for everyone.

No chance to get Lawrence unless they want to trade up for him. I don't see Spielman doing that, nor do I think that is necessary or the answer to fixing their problems.

We'll check back in on this at the end of the season. It will be interesting to see where they wind up.
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Re: Imagine the possibility (Mr. Lawrence)

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:36 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:12 pm
I've never been very good at predictions, but in looking at the overall talent of the team and the fact that while I think the interior OL issues are intractable and will hamstring the offense the rest of the year, the defense is likely to settle down and improve over the year. While the offense has shown no consistency, they have moved the ball well at times and I think do possess a lot of talent at the skill positions.
If ever a photo proved your point about the interior OL, it's this one.

Image

This was the play we got the lucky ticky-tack roughing the passer call. It's a 3-man rush. That's Bradbury on his butt, with Dozier and Samia standing there doing absolutely nothing. I mean, the nose tackle lined up right over Bradbury. What the hell are Dozier and Samia doing? Why aren't they doubling the nose?

Pathetic.

We've got a skittish quarterback and ... this ... for an interior line. We've got a banged up defense with a lot of rookies and depth players on the field. We've got a coach who plays not to lose. It's a dumpster fire. I'd love 13 more entertaining games like the last one ... and if they turn into 13 more losses, oh well. Maybe then Spielman and Zimmer will be gone, and we'll finally get a franchise QB.
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Re: Imagine the possibility (Mr. Lawrence)

Post by VikingPaul73 » Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:54 am

Kapp that picture is the perfect symbol for the 2020 Minnesota Vikings

Any chance we can get Cliff to add that pic to the site banner??

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Re: Imagine the possibility (Mr. Lawrence)

Post by StumpHunter » Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:59 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:36 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:12 pm
I've never been very good at predictions, but in looking at the overall talent of the team and the fact that while I think the interior OL issues are intractable and will hamstring the offense the rest of the year, the defense is likely to settle down and improve over the year. While the offense has shown no consistency, they have moved the ball well at times and I think do possess a lot of talent at the skill positions.
If ever a photo proved your point about the interior OL, it's this one.

Image

This was the play we got the lucky ticky-tack roughing the passer call. It's a 3-man rush. That's Bradbury on his butt, with Dozier and Samia standing there doing absolutely nothing. I mean, the nose tackle lined up right over Bradbury. What the hell are Dozier and Samia doing? Why aren't they doubling the nose?

Pathetic.

We've got a skittish quarterback and ... this ... for an interior line. We've got a banged up defense with a lot of rookies and depth players on the field. We've got a coach who plays not to lose. It's a dumpster fire. I'd love 13 more entertaining games like the last one ... and if they turn into 13 more losses, oh well. Maybe then Spielman and Zimmer will be gone, and we'll finally get a franchise QB.
That is embarrassing, a 1st round pick in his 2nd year getting blown up like that.

That has not been the norm for him this year and he had shown improvement, but not enough obviously.

The interior of the line isn't the biggest reason we will be drafting in the top 10 though. We have a secondary that allows qbs to pass at will, an interior d line that cant stop the run. The run game could hide the deficiencies in the passing game, but that can't happen if we are getting blown out consistently.
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