Vikings Week 2: Good, Bad, and the Ugly

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Re: Vikings Week 2: Good, Bad, and the Ugly

Post by Mothman » Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:32 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:08 pm
Cousins has shown himself to be what Cousons is and it's not a top flight qb. He is a guy. Paying him the kind of money they paid him was an obvious mistake. Doubling down on it was another mistake. And when paired with Spielman's mismanagement of the qb position generally, and particularly the inexcusable trade for Sam Bradford, I think it's enough to get him canned.
Well said.
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Re: Vikings Week 2: Good, Bad, and the Ugly

Post by MikethePurple » Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:09 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:08 pm
Cousins has shown himself to be what Cousons is and it's not a top flight qb. He is a guy. Paying him the kind of money they paid him was an obvious mistake. Doubling down on it was another mistake. And when paired with Spielman's mismanagement of the qb position generally, and particularly the inexcusable trade for Sam Bradford, I think it's enough to get him canned.
I was shocked when they gave Cousins the extension in the offseason, especially when the last experience was the drubbing in SF. While Cousins played well against the Saints, the fact that many said, "he's proved the doubters wrong" about being able to deliver in big spots just seemed like such a strange media talking point. Winning one playoff game to me in a big situation doesn't really prove much, nor does it warrant a multi-year extension. Just like losing one wouldn't necessarily prove the opposite. When you look at Cousins career as a whole, he has shown who he is. A guy who is talented and can win games, but has never been able to CONSISTENTLY put it together against quality opponents, in big stages, or when not surrounded by a cast of good talent. You don't pay someone that kind of money who can't elevate the team with his play and is mostly a complementary piece.

Diggs wanting out right after the signing was no coincidence and I don't blame him at all. He recognized the limitations of this formula. Once the Vikings re-signed Cousins, I pretty much just became resigned to the fact that Vikings were content on making the playoffs as a ceiling but not really contending for a championship. Then when they re-signed the head coach and the GM it made some sense to keep continuity with the Cousins commitment, but it just further cemented their stagnation for the next couple of years. They kind of put the exclamation point on it to pay Cook the money they paid him and really strapped the team capwise for years to come (this doesn't even take into account the likely drop in the salary cap next year, I have no idea what they are going to do then).

To continually run back the same cast of characters, when even much of the talented cast was no longer here, seemed like such a fool's errand to me. If you weren't able to get it done before with a similar philosophy and a much better roster, why would you expect to be better with fewer good players? With the decisions they've made, player, personnel, and coaching wise, I don't see much of a change until they completely start new, which given the contracts they've signed, doesn't seem likely for another couple years at the soonest. This several year committment to bringing back a declining show just makes me pretty apathetic as a Vikings fan for the foreseeable future.
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Re: Vikings Week 2: Good, Bad, and the Ugly

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:52 pm

MikethePurple wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:09 pm
fiestavike wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:08 pm
Cousins has shown himself to be what Cousons is and it's not a top flight qb. He is a guy. Paying him the kind of money they paid him was an obvious mistake. Doubling down on it was another mistake. And when paired with Spielman's mismanagement of the qb position generally, and particularly the inexcusable trade for Sam Bradford, I think it's enough to get him canned.
I was shocked when they gave Cousins the extension in the offseason, especially when the last experience was the drubbing in SF. While Cousins played well against the Saints, the fact that many said, "he's proved the doubters wrong" about being able to deliver in big spots just seemed like such a strange media talking point. Winning one playoff game to me in a big situation doesn't really prove much, nor does it warrant a multi-year extension. Just like losing one wouldn't necessarily prove the opposite. When you look at Cousins career as a whole, he has shown who he is. A guy who is talented and can win games, but has never been able to CONSISTENTLY put it together against quality opponents, in big stages, or when not surrounded by a cast of good talent. You don't pay someone that kind of money who can't elevate the team with his play and is mostly a complementary piece.

Diggs wanting out right after the signing was no coincidence and I don't blame him at all. He recognized the limitations of this formula. Once the Vikings re-signed Cousins, I pretty much just became resigned to the fact that Vikings were content on making the playoffs as a ceiling but not really contending for a championship. Then when they re-signed the head coach and the GM it made some sense to keep continuity with the Cousins commitment, but it just further cemented their stagnation for the next couple of years. They kind of put the exclamation point on it to pay Cook the money they paid him and really strapped the team capwise for years to come (this doesn't even take into account the likely drop in the salary cap next year, I have no idea what they are going to do then).

To continually run back the same cast of characters, when even much of the talented cast was no longer here, seemed like such a fool's errand to me. If you weren't able to get it done before with a similar philosophy and a much better roster, why would you expect to be better with fewer good players? With the decisions they've made, player, personnel, and coaching wise, I don't see much of a change until they completely start new, which given the contracts they've signed, doesn't seem likely for another couple years at the soonest. This several year committment to bringing back a declining show just makes me pretty apathetic as a Vikings fan for the foreseeable future.
Come on. So you think Diggs saw the writing on the wall but somehow nobody else saw it and Diggs was the only one that wanted out and only one that asked for a trade? I’m not buying that for one second. First of all, it was rumored Diggs wanted out well before cousins was extended. Second, Diggs didn’t say a word all throughout an 8-8 underachieving season. Why? Because Diggs had the best numbers of his career by far. Diggs complained, posted cryptic tweets and went AWOL last year when the Vikings played much better, made the playoffs and upset an NFC favorite. Why? Because the Vikings went to full blown run heavy 2 WR offense. Cook was option 1, Thielen was option 2 (and landed a bigger deal than diggs following Diggs extension) and diggs was number 3.

This is what Chad Greenway said about the entire situation:
To me, it’s a cry to get out.. to try and say ‘I’m trying to get out of here.’ I want to go be ‘the guy’ somewhere else because I can’t be ‘the guy’ with Thielen here… and that’s how I see it. I don’t know how it could be anything different than that.

“There’s Thielen and then there’s Diggs… and that does not sit well with Diggs. That’s just my perception of it. He wants it to be Diggs and then someone else…

“Well.. the PERCEPTION is they’re incredibly close, right? We don’t know what it’s like in the offseason or if they’re grinding together, working through stuff for next year, we don’t know what that looks like. I wouldn’t know… I’ve been away from it for too long to really see that. The PERCEPTION is that’s how they are.

But, can that be the reality if we have Diggsy, you know, throwing this temper tantrum about not getting the ball enough, or whatever he’s doing?”
That’s one of the most well respected guys to play for this organization in the last decade and a former teammate of Diggs. Greenway wasn’t much of a talking, never called anyone out, etc. But clearly he didn’t hold back here and knows how Diggs is.

I take the word of Greenway any day of the week over media perception, what a fan thinks based off a tweet, or just what a fan WANTS the narrative to be (and there are plenty of those fans out there). Greenway has no reason to protect Kirk cousins and never even played with cousins. If he had no problem calling out a former teammate in Diggs, he’d have no problem calling out cousins if he was the one that was the problem.

Diggs is selfish and diggs is all about himself. There is a laundry list of examples to back that up and Chad Greenway put that much more validity behind it.
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Re: Vikings Week 2: Good, Bad, and the Ugly

Post by MikethePurple » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:27 pm

[/quote] Come on. So you think Diggs saw the writing on the wall but somehow nobody else saw it and Diggs was the only one that wanted out and only one that asked for a trade? I’m not buying that for one second. First of all, it was rumored Diggs wanted out well before cousins was extended. Second, Diggs didn’t say a word all throughout an 8-8 underachieving season. Why? Because Diggs had the best numbers of his career by far. Diggs complained, posted cryptic tweets and went AWOL last year when the Vikings played much better, made the playoffs and upset an NFC favorite. Why? Because the Vikings went to full blown run heavy 2 WR offense. Cook was option 1, Thielen was option 2 (and landed a bigger deal than diggs following Diggs extension) and diggs was number 3.

This is what Chad Greenway said about the entire situation:
To me, it’s a cry to get out.. to try and say ‘I’m trying to get out of here.’ I want to go be ‘the guy’ somewhere else because I can’t be ‘the guy’ with Thielen here… and that’s how I see it. I don’t know how it could be anything different than that.

“There’s Thielen and then there’s Diggs… and that does not sit well with Diggs. That’s just my perception of it. He wants it to be Diggs and then someone else…

“Well.. the PERCEPTION is they’re incredibly close, right? We don’t know what it’s like in the offseason or if they’re grinding together, working through stuff for next year, we don’t know what that looks like. I wouldn’t know… I’ve been away from it for too long to really see that. The PERCEPTION is that’s how they are.

But, can that be the reality if we have Diggsy, you know, throwing this temper tantrum about not getting the ball enough, or whatever he’s doing?”
That’s one of the most well respected guys to play for this organization in the last decade and a former teammate of Diggs. Greenway wasn’t much of a talking, never called anyone out, etc. But clearly he didn’t hold back here and knows how Diggs is.

I take the word of Greenway any day of the week over media perception, what a fan thinks based off a tweet, or just what a fan WANTS the narrative to be (and there are plenty of those fans out there). Greenway has no reason to protect Kirk cousins and never even played with cousins. If he had no problem calling out a former teammate in Diggs, he’d have no problem calling out cousins if he was the one that was the problem.

Diggs is selfish and diggs is all about himself. There is a laundry list of examples to back that up and Chad Greenway put that much more validity behind it.
[/quote]

I'm not really sure why based on everything I wrote, you decided to focus on the Diggs thing. That was a pretty small piece of the larger point.

The main point is that I don't agree with the decisions or philosophy that this team has decided to pursue from top to bottom nor do I believe that building a franchise with the key and most expensive piece being a deeply flawed but good quarterback, is a successful strategy to follow. Especially when you've shown that it already has not worked when he had a better team around him and there is a ceiling to this approach. Not to mention that he has shown throughout his career this is who he is and is unlikely to reach another level. To me its just silly to continue to stay the course and commit to several more years of a strategy that has clearly not worked. Especially when this year easily could have been used as a "prove it" year based on several contracts all lining up.
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Re: Vikings Week 2: Good, Bad, and the Ugly

Post by PacificNorseWest » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:47 pm

The bad and ugly is all the injuries to major stars across the league...NFC teams got hit especially hard...maybe the Vikings pick up some wins simply cause everyone else is so depleted...that could be good. :?
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Re: Vikings Week 2: Good, Bad, and the Ugly

Post by vikeinmontana » Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:22 pm

Not a lot of good yesterday. Though I will say I popped in the game chat for the first time in a couple seasons and it didn’t disappoint! So my good will be the gameday chat is as entertaining as it can be.

Pretty much everything else was bad or ugly in my view. It’s the name of the game that every argument will always come down to the QB and the defense. It’s like people forget every other position.

I’ll say the defense has not been good. But considering injuries I’d be lying if I said I was surprised.

I’m not a big Cousins guy. I don’t think he always deserves ALL the blame like he seems to get, but I see why people pile it on. I can’t envision any way that he’s a guy leading us to a super bowl.

I do think that in football, the ultimate team game, the offense and defense builds off one another. So while I don’t think our defense is playing amazing by any stretch, I think our ineptness on offense plays a huge role in that. We are dead last in the league in time of possession. We’re simply never on the field. You know what teams are first and second in time of possession? You guessed it, the Packers and Colts. Our defense, already suspect, is on the field the entire game. That’s a recipe for disaster.

I’m not a doom and gloom guy. It’s sports. Good seasons and bad seasons. But this defense isn’t built to overcome such a weak offense. Because of that I think we’re in for a long season. Though I can’t imagine we’ll continue to look as horrendous as we have the last couple weeks.

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Re: Vikings Week 2: Good, Bad, and the Ugly

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:38 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:52 pm
To me, it’s a cry to get out.. to try and say ‘I’m trying to get out of here.’ I want to go be ‘the guy’ somewhere else because I can’t be ‘the guy’ with Thielen here… and that’s how I see it. I don’t know how it could be anything different than that.

“There’s Thielen and then there’s Diggs… and that does not sit well with Diggs. That’s just my perception of it. He wants it to be Diggs and then someone else…

“Well.. the PERCEPTION is they’re incredibly close, right? We don’t know what it’s like in the offseason or if they’re grinding together, working through stuff for next year, we don’t know what that looks like. I wouldn’t know… I’ve been away from it for too long to really see that. The PERCEPTION is that’s how they are.

But, can that be the reality if we have Diggsy, you know, throwing this temper tantrum about not getting the ball enough, or whatever he’s doing?”
That’s one of the most well respected guys to play for this organization in the last decade and a former teammate of Diggs. Greenway wasn’t much of a talking, never called anyone out, etc. But clearly he didn’t hold back here and knows how Diggs is.
He has no idea what is going on, by his own admission.
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Re: Vikings Week 2: Good, Bad, and the Ugly

Post by S197 » Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:01 pm

I found a good!

The last time the Vikings lost to the Packers, Colts, and Titans in the first 4 weeks, they won the NFC North.

They turned the season around by benching their starting QB :gone:
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Re: Vikings Week 2: Good, Bad, and the Ugly

Post by RandyMoss84 » Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:07 pm

S197 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:01 pm
I found a good!

The last time the Vikings lost to the Packers, Colts, and Titans in the first 4 weeks, they won the NFC North.

They turned the season around by benching their starting QB :gone:
Yeah but it is not going to happen this time because Mannion is awful
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Re: Vikings Week 2: Good, Bad, and the Ugly

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:19 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:38 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:52 pm



That’s one of the most well respected guys to play for this organization in the last decade and a former teammate of Diggs. Greenway wasn’t much of a talking, never called anyone out, etc. But clearly he didn’t hold back here and knows how Diggs is.
He has no idea what is going on, by his own admission.
I can tell you that he knows Diggs a lot better than you or anyone else does outside of the organization does for that matter. That’s the point.
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Re: Vikings Week 2: Good, Bad, and the Ugly

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:22 pm

MikethePurple wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:27 pm
Come on. So you think Diggs saw the writing on the wall but somehow nobody else saw it and Diggs was the only one that wanted out and only one that asked for a trade? I’m not buying that for one second. First of all, it was rumored Diggs wanted out well before cousins was extended. Second, Diggs didn’t say a word all throughout an 8-8 underachieving season. Why? Because Diggs had the best numbers of his career by far. Diggs complained, posted cryptic tweets and went AWOL last year when the Vikings played much better, made the playoffs and upset an NFC favorite. Why? Because the Vikings went to full blown run heavy 2 WR offense. Cook was option 1, Thielen was option 2 (and landed a bigger deal than diggs following Diggs extension) and diggs was number 3.

This is what Chad Greenway said about the entire situation:
To me, it’s a cry to get out.. to try and say ‘I’m trying to get out of here.’ I want to go be ‘the guy’ somewhere else because I can’t be ‘the guy’ with Thielen here… and that’s how I see it. I don’t know how it could be anything different than that.

“There’s Thielen and then there’s Diggs… and that does not sit well with Diggs. That’s just my perception of it. He wants it to be Diggs and then someone else…

“Well.. the PERCEPTION is they’re incredibly close, right? We don’t know what it’s like in the offseason or if they’re grinding together, working through stuff for next year, we don’t know what that looks like. I wouldn’t know… I’ve been away from it for too long to really see that. The PERCEPTION is that’s how they are.

But, can that be the reality if we have Diggsy, you know, throwing this temper tantrum about not getting the ball enough, or whatever he’s doing?”
That’s one of the most well respected guys to play for this organization in the last decade and a former teammate of Diggs. Greenway wasn’t much of a talking, never called anyone out, etc. But clearly he didn’t hold back here and knows how Diggs is.

I take the word of Greenway any day of the week over media perception, what a fan thinks based off a tweet, or just what a fan WANTS the narrative to be (and there are plenty of those fans out there). Greenway has no reason to protect Kirk cousins and never even played with cousins. If he had no problem calling out a former teammate in Diggs, he’d have no problem calling out cousins if he was the one that was the problem.

Diggs is selfish and diggs is all about himself. There is a laundry list of examples to back that up and Chad Greenway put that much more validity behind it.
[/quote]

I'm not really sure why based on everything I wrote, you decided to focus on the Diggs thing. That was a pretty small piece of the larger point.

The main point is that I don't agree with the decisions or philosophy that this team has decided to pursue from top to bottom nor do I believe that building a franchise with the key and most expensive piece being a deeply flawed but good quarterback, is a successful strategy to follow. Especially when you've shown that it already has not worked when he had a better team around him and there is a ceiling to this approach. Not to mention that he has shown throughout his career this is who he is and is unlikely to reach another level. To me its just silly to continue to stay the course and commit to several more years of a strategy that has clearly not worked. Especially when this year easily could have been used as a "prove it" year based on several contracts all lining up.
[/quote]

I focused on the diggs part because guys still want to beat that drum. If diggs was that smart and “saw the writing on the wall”, other players would too and he definitely wouldn’t be the only guy wanting out. Again, diggs is selfish and all about himself. As long as he’s the center of attention, his team could win 1 game or the SB. It doesn’t matter. As long as he’s “the guy”
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Re: Vikings Week 2: Good, Bad, and the Ugly

Post by Mothman » Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:41 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:22 pm
I focused on the diggs part because guys still want to beat that drum. If diggs was that smart and “saw the writing on the wall”, other players would too and he definitely wouldn’t be the only guy wanting out. Again, diggs is selfish and all about himself. As long as he’s the center of attention, his team could win 1 game or the SB. It doesn’t matter. As long as he’s “the guy”

I seriously doubt that. Here's a more nuanced view that seems more likely to be accurate:

https://www.skornorth.com/2020/03/what- ... fon-diggs/

I think Diggs cares about winning and that was one of several problems he had with Minnesota. Yes, he wanted the ball but there's almost certainly more to his departure than selfishness.
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Re: Vikings Week 2: Good, Bad, and the Ugly

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:58 am

Mothman wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:41 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:22 pm
I focused on the diggs part because guys still want to beat that drum. If diggs was that smart and “saw the writing on the wall”, other players would too and he definitely wouldn’t be the only guy wanting out. Again, diggs is selfish and all about himself. As long as he’s the center of attention, his team could win 1 game or the SB. It doesn’t matter. As long as he’s “the guy”

I seriously doubt that. Here's a more nuanced view that seems more likely to be accurate:

https://www.skornorth.com/2020/03/what- ... fon-diggs/

I think Diggs cares about winning and that was one of several problems he had with Minnesota. Yes, he wanted the ball but there's almost certainly more to his departure than selfishness.
Alexander and Griffen chose other teams as well, with Griffen taking a lot less to play in Dallas. Neither went to a team that will be favored to win anything for a while, so it isn't necessarily about winning either.

It seems like all three felt slighted by the organization in some way.
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Re: Vikings Week 2: Good, Bad, and the Ugly

Post by Mothman » Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:54 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:58 am
Alexander and Griffen chose other teams as well, with Griffen taking a lot less to play in Dallas. Neither went to a team that will be favored to win anything for a while, so it isn't necessarily about winning either.

It seems like all three felt slighted by the organization in some way.
That's possible too.

I didn't mean "winning" in the sense of winning a championship immediately. I just meant teams on the rise, teams that feel like they might be building to something and going someplace rather than stagnating.
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Re: Vikings Week 2: Good, Bad, and the Ugly

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:56 am

Mothman wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:54 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:58 am
Alexander and Griffen chose other teams as well, with Griffen taking a lot less to play in Dallas. Neither went to a team that will be favored to win anything for a while, so it isn't necessarily about winning either.

It seems like all three felt slighted by the organization in some way.
That's possible too.

I didn't mean "winning" in the sense of winning a championship immediately. I just meant teams on the rise, teams that feel like they might be building to something and going someplace rather than stagnating.
Depressing.
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