Pathetic

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Re: Pathetic

Post by StpViking » Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:15 pm

I didn't think I would find a person that was less passionate about this team, this season, then me, but I found them. THE VIKINGS COACHING STAFF AND ITS PLAYERS. I got no hint of anyone on the Vikings sideline that cared at all about that game. Everyone is just going through the motion and saying scripted lines at the end of the day.

There's still 14 games left in the season, if ennui has already set in this early, why didn't the whole staff and team take the season off like Michael Pierce?
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Re: Pathetic

Post by makila » Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:23 pm

It's the organizational leadership that needs to change imo. In any form of leadership and/or decision making positions, you have to know who you are, what you do best, what you don't, etc. This organization currently does not do that very well. If you are in, then you don't trade someone talented like Diggs at a position you have only 2 players worth a damn. If you are in, then you invest in offensive lineman that can play now. If you are out, then you don't extend your aging QB with more guaranteed money while continually ignoring the position's future. If you are out, then you don't trade away future draft picks. This last off-season was so puzzling when trying to determine what they think they are. Hey Spielman gets all his draft picks to play with that way though.

Seems like they want to have feet on both sides of the fence, and have for a while now. I think that results in inconsistency. Which is what we do season to season. The window on this core is closed imo. Will fully admit I am sour with Spielman and Zimmer, and probably a bit reactionary due to that. Ready to move on. Seen enough.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:19 am

S197 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:54 pm
Mothman wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:43 am


He's never been able to solve the run problems in his defense either and they also seem to be getting worse. Last season, in losses, the Vikes gave up way too much yardage on the ground and 2 games into this season they've already allowed over 300 yards rushing. That's a huge problem.



I don't think we know. We do know they're bad. They haven't been very competitive in the first two games and a key injury or two could easily send them spiraling into "worst in the league" territory. They appear headed for a top 10 pick and if they keep playing like this, top 3 isn't out of the question.
Run defense has definitely been a problem and has resulted in losses to lesser teams, like Chicago (four times in a row). But overall I just don't see the aggressive style that Zimmer has been known for as of late. His disguised blitzes were always fun to watch but now it just seems like it's a lot of base nickel. Let the other team drive down the field then tighten up in the redzone. If it just started this year, I would chalk it up to lack of personnel experience but he's progressively gotten more conservative for a while now and I wish I knew why.
Chicago was only the lesser team 1 of those 4 times. The other three they were the better team.

I don't think this is a scheme issue or a coaching issue. The talent just isn't there.

Our Dline is arguably the worst in the NFL right now and that more than anything was the biggest issue this past Sunday. The Colts were able to run the ball at will, and when that happens scheme goes out the window. Week 1 the secondary was the biggest issue and you saw an inexperienced secondary leaving guys wide open the entire game and Rodgers finding them almost immediately. Blitzing in that situation would do nothing and I doubt Zimmer is scheming to leave people open.

On offense, Kubiak is not telling Cousins to miss receivers by a mile and throw interceptions. We have no idea if Kubiaks offense is any good, because the QB has not been capable of running it. That could possibly change as the season goes on, Cousins had a really slow start last year if not to the extent he has this year, but until the QB begins making basic throws regularly, the O will suck regardless of scheme.

I am not trying to make excuses for the coaching staff, they hold a lot of accountability for who is out there right now. I just think ignoring the lack of talent we are putting out there is ignoring the real problem.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:18 am

Vikings TEAM stats through the first 2 weeks:

Total Offense: 30th
Pass Offense: 32nd
Run Offense: 20th

Total Defense: 29th
Pass Defense: 28th
Run Defense: 28th

Those stats alone point to a much bigger and deeper problem right now. And I wouldnt even say it's the GM because the talent is there.

This points directly at the coaching and failed game planning. The Vikings are in the bottom half, even bottom five in 5 of 6 categories. Bottom half in all 6. This is NOT a bottom 5 roster. Not even close on either side of the ball. The current problem is MUCH bigger than Kirk Cousins, or lack of DL, or OL, or DBs, etc. Something is going on that is not adding up. This is a TEAM problem right now and the coach is who runs the team.

There is zero fire, zero excitement on the field, guys just looking like they are going through the motions, poor play, etc. I'm not sure what Zim, Kubiak and these DCs are doing right now but clearly it's not the right thing.

You dont have Kirk Cousins, Cook, Mattison, Thielen, Jefferson and our TEs and have the 30th ranked offense in the NFL. You just dont!!

Granted the defense is now banged up but you dont have Ngakoue, Kenricks, Barr, Smith and Harris and have the 29th total defense in the NFL. Some teams would kill to have 5 studs like that on their defense and they are still playing better defense than the Vikings are.

I've said it once and I'll say it again, this is a coaching problem right now. I dont know what is going behind the scenes whether they arent seeing eye to eye and they are battling or if they are really that clueless right now. I have no clue. But this problem needs to be fixed and fixed fast. If not, they will all be on the street at this rate.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by makila » Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:46 am

This coaching staff and front office are married. They have had years together to be on the same page. Failure in one area should be the exit for both imo. No more chances. They've had enough.

We have holes across the roster. Team is playing bad. Those point to both areas.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:53 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:18 am
Vikings TEAM stats through the first 2 weeks:

Total Offense: 30th
Pass Offense: 32nd
Run Offense: 20th

Total Defense: 29th
Pass Defense: 28th
Run Defense: 28th

Those stats alone point to a much bigger and deeper problem right now. And I wouldnt even say it's the GM because the talent is there.

This points directly at the coaching and failed game planning. The Vikings are in the bottom half, even bottom five in 5 of 6 categories. Bottom half in all 6. This is NOT a bottom 5 roster. Not even close on either side of the ball. The current problem is MUCH bigger than Kirk Cousins, or lack of DL, or OL, or DBs, etc. Something is going on that is not adding up. This is a TEAM problem right now and the coach is who runs the team.

There is zero fire, zero excitement on the field, guys just looking like they are going through the motions, poor play, etc. I'm not sure what Zim, Kubiak and these DCs are doing right now but clearly it's not the right thing.

You dont have Kirk Cousins, Cook, Mattison, Thielen, Jefferson and our TEs and have the 30th ranked offense in the NFL. You just dont!!

Granted the defense is now banged up but you dont have Ngakoue, Kenricks, Barr, Smith and Harris and have the 29th total defense in the NFL. Some teams would kill to have 5 studs like that on their defense and they are still playing better defense than the Vikings are.

I've said it once and I'll say it again, this is a coaching problem right now. I dont know what is going behind the scenes whether they arent seeing eye to eye and they are battling or if they are really that clueless right now. I have no clue. But this problem needs to be fixed and fixed fast. If not, they will all be on the street at this rate.
It would be nice to believe it was all a coaching issue, that Kubiak and Zimmer forgot how to coach all of the sudden, but could it be that all of these unproven rookies and backups that we have playing on defense just aren't that good or need time to develop?

Could losing your best play maker in the passing offense be playing a role in the lack of offensive production? What happened to the team he went too?

Those are the changes from last year to this. Zimmer didn't change things up and Kubiak is running a similar offense to last season. The players are just different.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by Mothman » Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:26 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:19 am
Chicago was only the lesser team 1 of those 4 times. The other three they were the better team.

I don't think this is a scheme issue or a coaching issue. The talent just isn't there.
I think it's both. This isn'ta new problem. The Vikings allowed opponents to rush for 140+ yards in 6 games last season, all losses. If we go back to 2018, after the bye week (in week 10) the Vikings allowed 5 140+ yard rushing performances in 7 games. They lost 4 of those 5 games.
Our Dline is arguably the worst in the NFL right now and that more than anything was the biggest issue this past Sunday. The Colts were able to run the ball at will, and when that happens scheme goes out the window. Week 1 the secondary was the biggest issue and you saw an inexperienced secondary leaving guys wide open the entire game and Rodgers finding them almost immediately.
I'm not sure the secondary was the biggest issue in week 1. They gave 158 rushing yards.

Run defense is an increasingly significant problem for the Vikings.
On offense, Kubiak is not telling Cousins to miss receivers by a mile and throw interceptions. We have no idea if Kubiaks offense is any good, because the QB has not been capable of running it.
He ran it fine on two opening drives but after that, the wheels seem to come off. I think there's plenty of blame to spread around for the offensive struggles, including on Kubiak. The defense's inability to get off the field isn't exactly helping the offense get in sync and establish a rhythm either. The Vikes are playing the antithesis of complementary football in 2020.
I am not trying to make excuses for the coaching staff, they hold a lot of accountability for who is out there right now. I just think ignoring the lack of talent we are putting out there is ignoring the real problem.
Who's ignoring it? It's obviously a problem. So is coaching. So is personnel management. The Vikings drove themselves straight into this ditch even though you could see it ahead.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:47 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:53 am


It would be nice to believe it was all a coaching issue, that Kubiak and Zimmer forgot how to coach all of the sudden, but could it be that all of these unproven rookies and backups that we have playing on defense just aren't that good or need time to develop?


Inexperience plays a part, but it's also the bed Zimmer made. Zimmer allowed Mac to walk for a bag of peanuts. Waynes I get because his price tag was ridiculous. Rhodes I get because he was just simply bad. But Zim had an opportunity to put a veteran with these DBs like Dre Kirkpatrick or Darqueze Dennard and chose not to. Two guys that know this defense and would come cheap. He lets Griff walk and trades for Ngakoue. Excellent move but put him in the damn game and keep him in the game! The guy is a 5 year veteran and he's yet to play a full game. But we're pulling him out for a guy like Eddie Yarborough? As for the rookies, they havent really played all that much. If anything it's the guys in front of them not being that good, which bothers me even more that they arent seeing the field.
Could losing your best play maker in the passing offense be playing a role in the lack of offensive production? What happened to the team he went too?
Ugh I just said this to my buddy the other day. When Diggs was here, sure he was talked about, sure he was a big name, sure he produced, etc. But it was always all about Thielen. If you took a poll during that time and said "if someone has to be considered the #1 WR who would it be", I can guarantee you 90% or more of Vikings fans say Thielen. But NOW, since Diggs is gone, the amount of people I've seen say "we lost our biggest playmaker" is quite comical. Like Adam Thielen didnt ever exist.

As for the team Diggs is on now, something I've also mentioned to a few others given I live in NY.....the Bills have played the Jets and the Dolphins. I'll repeat, the Jets and the Dolphins. They are arguably two of the worst if not, THE worst teams in the entire NFL. Trying to talk the Bills up after those two games is as bad as you talking about Teddy Bridgewater tearing up the Bucs secondary last year....when they ranked dead last in the NFL at the time. Sorry but it's just not impressive. I'll be impressed with the Bills if they can beat teams that can actually walk and chew gum. Not beat up on their joke of a division.

As for the Vikings offensive production without Diggs, sure everyone expected somewhat of a drop off but I dont think anyone expected Jefferson to be playing 40% of snaps by week 2. Justin Jefferson has 5 catches for 70 yards this year. Bisi Johnson has 4 catches for 80 yards. Bisi has played 70% of snaps, Jefferson has played 60%. Why they continue to trot Bisi out there in 2 WR sets is beyond me.
Those are the changes from last year to this. Zimmer didn't change things up and Kubiak is running a similar offense to last season. The players are just different.
Again, I think lack of experience plays a role but it's still Zim's job to have them ready come game day. They dont even look like they want to be out there. That is alarming. Offensively they seem like they arent relying on Cook as much as they did last year. Why they arent is beyond me? Again, things are just out of sorts right now and I think the coaching staff should be the big ones to blame.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:20 pm

Mothman wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:26 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:19 am
Chicago was only the lesser team 1 of those 4 times. The other three they were the better team.

I don't think this is a scheme issue or a coaching issue. The talent just isn't there.
I think it's both. This isn'ta new problem. The Vikings allowed opponents to rush for 140+ yards in 6 games last season, all losses. If we go back to 2018, after the bye week (in week 10) the Vikings allowed 5 140+ yard rushing performances in 7 games. They lost 4 of those 5 games.
Yes, you generally get run on more in games where you lose, and less in games that you win. Not because rushing leads to victories, but because victories leads to more rushing.

Mothman wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:26 am
I'm not sure the secondary was the biggest issue in week 1. They gave 158 rushing yards.
Secondary was the biggest issue, but we also couldn't stop the run. Because the dline is the worst in the NFL.
Mothman wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:26 am
Run defense is an increasingly significant problem for the Vikings.
It certainly is this year, it wasn't when we were a top 10 defense for the past 4 seasons.


Mothman wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:26 am
He ran it fine on two opening drives but after that, the wheels seem to come off. I think there's plenty of blame to spread around for the offensive struggles, including on Kubiak. The defense's inability to get off the field isn't exactly helping the offense get in sync and establish a rhythm either. The Vikes are playing the antithesis of complementary football in 2020.

I guess I find it funny how prior to the season, Kubiak was this former SB winning coach who was going to make the offense better, but somehow doesn't know what he is doing now that the players are failing to execute his offense.
Mothman wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:26 am
I am not trying to make excuses for the coaching staff, they hold a lot of accountability for who is out there right now. I just think ignoring the lack of talent we are putting out there is ignoring the real problem.
Who's ignoring it? It's obviously a problem. So is coaching. So is personnel management. The Vikings drove themselves straight into this ditch even though you could see it ahead.
There are plenty who are ignoring it. Some because admitting the team, regardless of the coaches, isn't very good means that there is a lot of work to get this team competitive again, and they prefer to point all the blame at the coach who is easily replaceable. Some because they have a strange love for the GM and think he can do no wrong.

This is an organizational from the top to the bottom problem. Coaches aren't getting enough out of the players, and players aren't that good to begin with. Change is need and both the coach and GM need to go.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by Mothman » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:58 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:20 pm
Yes, you generally get run on more in games where you lose, and less in games that you win. Not because rushing leads to victories, but because victories leads to more rushing.

Hogwash.

Rushing contributes to victories, especially when a team can pick up 150+ yards on the ground, which happened in most of the games I mentioned. Heck, in one of them the Vikes gave up 200+ rushing yards. It's not simply an insignificant by-product of a win.
It certainly is this year, it wasn't when we were a top 10 defense for the past 4 seasons.
:lol: Sure, remember how it wasn't an issue against the 49ers in the playoffs last year? I do too and it certainly wasn't an issue when they dropped 4 of their last 7 games in 2018 and missed the playoffs.

Ranking as a top 10 defense doesn't mean squat when quality opponents can control the line of scrimmage and run for 180+ on your defense in important games.
I guess I find it funny how prior to the season, Kubiak was this former SB winning coach who was going to make the offense better, but somehow doesn't know what he is doing now that the players are failing to execute his offense.
It's a laugh riot.
This is an organizational from the top to the bottom problem. Coaches aren't getting enough out of the players, and players aren't that good to begin with. Change is need and both the coach and GM need to go.
On all of that, we agree.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:07 pm

Mothman wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:58 pm


Hogwash.

Rushing contributes to victories, especially when a team can pick up 150+ yards on the ground, which happened in most of the games I mentioned. Heck, in one of them the Vikes gave up 200+ rushing yards. It's not simply an insignificant by-product of a win.
Since 2010, across the entirety of the NFL, the rushing YPA in wins is 4.2
In losses it is also 4.2.

The yards per game is 134 in wins, while it is 97 in losses.

This means that statistically, teams run more in wins than losses regardless of how well they are running the football. It also means that running the ball well has an insignificant impact on wins and losses overall. That doesn't mean you can't win because of a good run game, it can and does happen. It does mean that looking at rushing yards at the end of a game without looking at the context of those rushing yards, is pointless.
Mothman wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:58 pm

:lol: Sure, remember how it wasn't an issue against the 49ers in the playoffs last year? I do too and it certainly wasn't an issue when they dropped 4 of their last 7 games in 2018 and missed the playoffs.
I have gone over this a number of times, but the D was not even close to being the main reason we lost those games in 2018. Scoring an average of 10 points and keeping that D on the field the whole game was the biggest contributor to those losses.

SF averaged less 3.9 yards per carry against the Vikings, almost 3 yards per carry fewer than SF had against KC, a game they lost. How does that work if stopping the run is the key to victories? :confused:
Mothman wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:58 pm
Ranking as a top 10 defense doesn't mean squat when quality opponents can control the line of scrimmage and run for 180+ on your defense in important games.
Ranking in the top 10 on defense means nothing if your offense fails to score more than 10 points and keeps you on the field the entire game when you play quality opponents.

If we were losing these games 30-27, your point would be irrefutable, but as it stands all of those games have one thing in common, and they weren't poor performances by the defense.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by Mothman » Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:09 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:07 pm
Since 2010, across the entirety of the NFL, the rushing YPA in wins is 4.2
In losses it is also 4.2.

The yards per game is 134 in wins, while it is 97 in losses.

This means that statistically, teams run more in wins than losses regardless of how well they are running the football. It also means that running the ball well has an insignificant impact on wins and losses overall. That doesn't mean you can't win because of a good run game, it can and does happen. It does mean that looking at rushing yards at the end of a game without looking at the context of those rushing yards, is pointless.
I'm familiar with all of the above but I'm not simply "looking at rushing yards at the end of a game without looking at the context of those rushing yards". I watched most of those games and listened to the rest. Those rushing performances had a serious impact on the outcome in most, if not all of them. Dismissing that with broad, league-wide statistical analysis is the very definition of ignoring the context.

The Vikings have lost quite a few games in the Zimmer era, and particularly over the last 2 years, in which they've allowed huge rushing totals and those rushing performances clearly impacted the outcomes. Denying that is just denying the obvious.
I have gone over this a number of times, but the D was not even close to being the main reason we lost those games in 2018. Scoring an average of 10 points and keeping that D on the field the whole game was the biggest contributor to those losses.
I didn't say the defense was the main reason they lost those games. I simply made the obvious points that run defense has been a problem and that allowing 140+ rushing yards is problematic. Why you feel the need to argue about this is beyond me since those performances obviously contributed to the losses. I assume we can agree that giving up that much yardage on the ground is undesirable, right?
SF averaged less 3.9 yards per carry against the Vikings, almost 3 yards per carry fewer than SF had against KC, a game they lost. How does that work if stopping the run is the key to victories? :confused:
I didn't say stopping the run is THE key to victories either.
If we were losing these games 30-27, your point would be irrefutable, but as it stands all of those games have one thing in common, and they weren't poor performances by the defense.
:lol: They were obviously poor performances by the defense. Your point about the offense doesn't alter that. A team can play poorly on both sides of the ball in the same game.

You appear to be arguing just for the sake of argument and you're arguing against a point I didn't even make.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by S197 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:09 pm

makila wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:46 am
This coaching staff and front office are married. They have had years together to be on the same page. Failure in one area should be the exit for both imo. No more chances. They've had enough.

We have holes across the roster. Team is playing bad. Those point to both areas.
Wholeheartedly agree.

And welcome to the forum.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:13 pm

Mothman wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:09 pm
The Vikings have lost quite a few games in the Zimmer era, and particularly over the last 2 years, in which they've allowed huge rushing totals and those rushing performances clearly impacted the outcomes. Denying that is just denying the obvious.
Yes, NE has as well. They lost 6 games since 2018 where they gave up 150+ rushing yards and those rushing yards affected the outcome of the game. That doesn't make Bill's defenses any less good overall.

Being this bad against the run is a new thing this year. The Dline is terrible and that is also new. To fix it we need Pierce back, and a viable 3 tech and the fact that we have spent so little draft capital and cap on a 3 tech since Floyd and then a one year rental in Richardson is asinine. As much as people like to harp on guard, 3 tech this year and last has been just as big of hole.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by Mothman » Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:50 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:13 pm
Being this bad against the run is a new thing this year.
Sure, the team that dominated time of possession against the Vikes and rushed for 158 yards in the season opener this year also dominated ToP and ran for a combined 328 yards in two games against the Vikes last season but this is a "new" problem.

Your statement above is demonstrably false.
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