Pathetic

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fiestavike
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Re: Pathetic

Post by fiestavike » Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:52 am

If it's a question of talent, I think the coaches are seasoned enough to find some ways to work around that and make the team respectable as the season goes along. If its a question of internal turmoil, it could get much worse. Watching a bit of Hardknocks this year, it would be easy to see a locker room completely falling apart if you cant get a lot of people to bite their tongue and go with the flow. Almost no matter what path an organization tries to use to navigate through these turbulent waters there will be people who feel disrespected and forced to sacrifice themselves to a greater good which they believe is based on an untruth. It's quite possible that the vikings and zimmer handled this more poorly than any other team in terms of being able to compete and remain united through the turbulence.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by Mothman » Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:19 am

fiestavike wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:52 am
If it's a question of talent, I think the coaches are seasoned enough to find some ways to work around that and make the team respectable as the season goes along. If its a question of internal turmoil, it could get much worse. Watching a bit of Hardknocks this year, it would be easy to see a locker room completely falling apart if you cant get a lot of people to bite their tongue and go with the flow. Almost no matter what path an organization tries to use to navigate through these turbulent waters there will be people who feel disrespected and forced to sacrifice themselves to a greater good which they believe is based on an untruth. It's quite possible that the vikings and zimmer handled this more poorly than any other team in terms of being able to compete and remain united through the turbulence.
It's possible but at this point, that's speculative. If serious turmoil is dividing the locker room, it could be political or pandemic-related but it could also be related to the coaching, personnel or management. Diggs wanted out for a reason. Zimmer's in his 7th season. Spielman's in his 9th as GM. Cousins is the QB and who really believes Kirk Cousins is ever going to lead a team to a championship?

When a team's leadership sticks around this long and the team fails to develop into a perennial contender or achieve much success in the postseason, the lack of confidence and sense of dissatisfaction that sets in with a fan base can set in with players. A coach can start to lose his team. Players want out. Coherence dissipates. The message gets old. If there IS some other issue dividing the locker room, getting to respectable could be even harder.

Zimmer's already trying to compensate for talent deficiencies on his roster and through two weeks, it's not working. As you said, this is a seasoned staff so they may be able to find something that works at least well enough to make the team respectable. However, I think we're looking at the beginning of an ugly season.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by Bowhunting Viking » Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:27 am

Mothman wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:19 am
fiestavike wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:52 am
If it's a question of talent, I think the coaches are seasoned enough to find some ways to work around that and make the team respectable as the season goes along. If its a question of internal turmoil, it could get much worse. Watching a bit of Hardknocks this year, it would be easy to see a locker room completely falling apart if you cant get a lot of people to bite their tongue and go with the flow. Almost no matter what path an organization tries to use to navigate through these turbulent waters there will be people who feel disrespected and forced to sacrifice themselves to a greater good which they believe is based on an untruth. It's quite possible that the vikings and zimmer handled this more poorly than any other team in terms of being able to compete and remain united through the turbulence.
It's possible but at this point, that's speculative. If serious turmoil is dividing the locker room, it could be political or pandemic-related but it could also be related to the coaching, personnel or management. Diggs wanted out for a reason. Zimmer's in his 7th season. Spielman's in his 9th as GM. Cousins is the QB and who really believes Kirk Cousins is ever going to lead a team to a championship?

When a team's leadership sticks around this long and the team fails to develop into a perennial contender or achieve much success in the postseason, the lack of confidence and sense of dissatisfaction that sets in with a fan base can set in with players. A coach can start to lose his team. Players want out. Coherence dissipates. The message gets old. If there IS some other issue dividing the locker room, getting to respectable could be even harder.

Zimmer's already trying to compensate for talent deficiencies on his roster and through two weeks, it's not working. As you said, this is a seasoned staff so they may be able to find something that works at least well enough to make the team respectable. However, I think we're looking at the beginning of an ugly season.
Excellent post. It can't be said any better than that Sir
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Re: Pathetic

Post by Tark » Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:47 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:13 am
Tark wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:14 pm


Going by that matrix, we’re not in the play offs until the sky is falling in 2021, right? To think otherwise is delusional. It’s irrelevant.
The years are what is irrelevant. It's just classic Vikings fan thinking. We've only seen it for how many years now? The whole, blow everything up, start tanking, everyone sucks, etc.
Yep, I'm just a classy Vikings fan. Wait, classic? Yep, I guess I'm there too. Have a great week.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by fiestavike » Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:55 am

Mothman wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:19 am
fiestavike wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:52 am
If it's a question of talent, I think the coaches are seasoned enough to find some ways to work around that and make the team respectable as the season goes along. If its a question of internal turmoil, it could get much worse. Watching a bit of Hardknocks this year, it would be easy to see a locker room completely falling apart if you cant get a lot of people to bite their tongue and go with the flow. Almost no matter what path an organization tries to use to navigate through these turbulent waters there will be people who feel disrespected and forced to sacrifice themselves to a greater good which they believe is based on an untruth. It's quite possible that the vikings and zimmer handled this more poorly than any other team in terms of being able to compete and remain united through the turbulence.
It's possible but at this point, that's speculative. If serious turmoil is dividing the locker room, it could be political or pandemic-related but it could also be related to the coaching, personnel or management. Diggs wanted out for a reason. Zimmer's in his 7th season. Spielman's in his 9th as GM. Cousins is the QB and who really believes Kirk Cousins is ever going to lead a team to a championship?

When a team's leadership sticks around this long and the team fails to develop into a perennial contender or achieve much success in the postseason, the lack of confidence and sense of dissatisfaction that sets in with a fan base can set in with players. A coach can start to lose his team. Players want out. Coherence dissipates. The message gets old. If there IS some other issue dividing the locker room, getting to respectable could be even harder.

Zimmer's already trying to compensate for talent deficiencies on his roster and through two weeks, it's not working. As you said, this is a seasoned staff so they may be able to find something that works at least well enough to make the team respectable. However, I think we're looking at the beginning of an ugly season.
It could be as simple as that, but back to back games with this low level of focus, intensity and effort are not the hallmark of Zimmers 6 years as head coach. To be sure, they have come out flat in a few games through the years, but back to back outright stinkers of this degree is unprecedented. Of course, I'm only speculating, and we wont know for sure whether its talent or chemistry related even should the losing continue, though it would be more and more unprecedented.

We also wont know what the chemistry issues are without more info. My own opinion is that the teams issues are less talent related and more chemistry related. But I could be wrong.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by Mothman » Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:52 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:55 am
It could be as simple as that, but back to back games with this low level of focus, intensity and effort are not the hallmark of Zimmers 6 years as head coach. To be sure, they have come out flat in a few games through the years, but back to back outright stinkers of this degree is unprecedented.


You're right, poor performances back to back have been relatively rare under Zimmer, although there is some precedent. They went through a 4 game losing streak in 2016 that began with double digit losses at Philly and Chicago and as recently as 2018 they received back-to-back drubbings from New England and Seattle. Overall, they've had quite a few ugly losses under Zimmer but it has been rare to see them back to back.

On the other hand, I think the issues we're seeing are issues we've seen repeatedly during his tenure as head coach.
Of course, I'm only speculating, and we wont know for sure whether its talent or chemistry related even should the losing continue, though it would be more and more unprecedented.

We also wont know what the chemistry issues are without more info. My own opinion is that the teams issues are less talent related and more chemistry related. But I could be wrong.
It's probably a combination of both. Maybe it will become more apparent as the season goes on or better yet, maybe it will become less apparent!
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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Pathetic

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:52 pm

Tark wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:47 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:13 am


The years are what is irrelevant. It's just classic Vikings fan thinking. We've only seen it for how many years now? The whole, blow everything up, start tanking, everyone sucks, etc.
Yep, I'm just a classy Vikings fan. Wait, classic? Yep, I guess I'm there too. Have a great week.
I'm not directing that at you. What I posted was a tweet from Adam Patrick. I'm saying the whole blow everything up, we suck, start tanking type thinking is classic Vikings fan thinking when they dont play well. It's happened more often than not as of late. The tweet proves that.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by fiestavike » Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:01 pm

Mothman wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:52 pm
fiestavike wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:55 am
It could be as simple as that, but back to back games with this low level of focus, intensity and effort are not the hallmark of Zimmers 6 years as head coach. To be sure, they have come out flat in a few games through the years, but back to back outright stinkers of this degree is unprecedented.


You're right, poor performances back to back have been relatively rare under Zimmer, although there is some precedent. They went through a 4 game losing streak in 2016 that began with double digit losses at Philly and Chicago and as recently as 2018 they received back-to-back drubbings from New England and Seattle. Overall, they've had quite a few ugly losses under Zimmer but it has been rare to see them back to back.

On the other hand, I think the issues we're seeing are issues we've seen repeatedly during his tenure as head coach.
Of course, I'm only speculating, and we wont know for sure whether its talent or chemistry related even should the losing continue, though it would be more and more unprecedented.

We also wont know what the chemistry issues are without more info. My own opinion is that the teams issues are less talent related and more chemistry related. But I could be wrong.
It's probably a combination of both. Maybe it will become more apparent as the season goes on or better yet, maybe it will become less apparent!
the circumstances in the nation and in my own life have been such that I am totally placid about the start to the season. I'm almost grateful that they arent somehow doing well enough to really suck me into the distraction of sports (which I could totally use!), because in the end, altering my priorities and activities has been such a blessing in my life. I just dont really care whether they win or lose.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by Mothman » Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:57 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:01 pm
the circumstances in the nation and in my own life have been such that I am totally placid about the start to the season. I'm almost grateful that they arent somehow doing well enough to really suck me into the distraction of sports (which I could totally use!), because in the end, altering my priorities and activities has been such a blessing in my life. I just dont really care whether they win or lose.
I hear you. I'm feeling pretty placid about it too. Football is a welcome diversion but I'm more focused on other things in my life and have been for some time. Heck, I didn't even know the NFL had expanded playoff seeding until I read it here this morning!
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Re: Pathetic

Post by MikethePurple » Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:56 pm

Mothman wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:57 pm
fiestavike wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:01 pm
the circumstances in the nation and in my own life have been such that I am totally placid about the start to the season. I'm almost grateful that they arent somehow doing well enough to really suck me into the distraction of sports (which I could totally use!), because in the end, altering my priorities and activities has been such a blessing in my life. I just dont really care whether they win or lose.
I hear you. I'm feeling pretty placid about it too. Football is a welcome diversion but I'm more focused on other things in my life and have been for some time. Heck, I didn't even know the NFL had expanded playoff seeding until I read it here this morning!
It's great perspective. This year has had such heavy and consequential issues and circumstances that I've actually enjoyed having football podcasts or things to listen to or watch as a distraction from other really serious and emotionally taxing things to deal with in real life. I have pretty low expectations for this team that I detailed a bit more in the Good, Bad, and Ugly thread which has actually made it much easier to enjoy football as a distraction. I don't think that I'd be able to add an emotional roller coaster Vikings season on to everything else that has taken place or is going on in the world right now, so having this type of season is oddly comforting. I can watch the Vikings in a pretty detached emotional space and just enjoy actually good football games involving other teams when I'm able.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by Mothman » Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:33 pm

Bowhunting Viking wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:27 am
Mothman wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:19 am


It's possible but at this point, that's speculative. If serious turmoil is dividing the locker room, it could be political or pandemic-related but it could also be related to the coaching, personnel or management. Diggs wanted out for a reason. Zimmer's in his 7th season. Spielman's in his 9th as GM. Cousins is the QB and who really believes Kirk Cousins is ever going to lead a team to a championship?

When a team's leadership sticks around this long and the team fails to develop into a perennial contender or achieve much success in the postseason, the lack of confidence and sense of dissatisfaction that sets in with a fan base can set in with players. A coach can start to lose his team. Players want out. Coherence dissipates. The message gets old. If there IS some other issue dividing the locker room, getting to respectable could be even harder.

Zimmer's already trying to compensate for talent deficiencies on his roster and through two weeks, it's not working. As you said, this is a seasoned staff so they may be able to find something that works at least well enough to make the team respectable. However, I think we're looking at the beginning of an ugly season.
Excellent post. It can't be said any better than that Sir
Thank you.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by Hunter Morrow » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:38 pm

I think they're going to lose the locker room if they haven't lost it already. The owners and Spielman are doing this wild stuff that looks like they can't figure out of they're potential Super Bowl contenders or doing a slow rebuild. There is a worrying lack of preparation and execution on both sides of the ball in games at the start and end of seasons now.

As for the offense, having new OCs and coaches every other year at a lot of positions has got to be old by now for some people (its old for me as a fan). Consistent o-line problems with the least-paid front 7 in the whole league has got to suck. Kirk doesn't seem like too much of a leader to me and he's stunk up the joint in a few games. They've already missed the playoffs with him already and missing playoffs with him this year being totally on the card when a lot of people were saying this guy was the key to winning a Super Bowl.

They've lost a lot in prime time and on the road. A lot of fans are feeling like the coaches are physically old and mentally outmoded and getting outcoached by divisional rivals like Green Bay and Chicago and younger, hipper coaches. Diggs and Griffen walked for their own reasons and they were vocal hype guys and leaders on both sides of the ball.

The defense got ravaged by trades, cuts, coronavirus and injuries and there's a lot of younger guys and burgeoning draft busts getting torched these days. Being on the field for 40 minutes a game has to suck. The offense players could be like, "these D guys are soft and letting people march up and down the field all game and giving up 400 yards, what are we supposed to do with that?" and the defense players might be thinking, "There's no rhythm, the 3rd and 4th down play calling is bizarre, the QB gave up a safety in the last 3 regular season games, there's boneheaded fumbles and picks from this QB all the time, Dalvin Cook isn't doing much as a featureback, what the Hell are we supposed to do with the offense selling us out like this?"

Mike Zimmer himself is saying there's not one aspect of the team that looks good right now. He's right! Even just having the same GM and same coach around for so many years without even making the Super Bowl game, let alone winning that game, has got to feel futile.

How could they lose the locker room? If people don't think this team as currently constituted and coached is even realistically going to make the playoffs regularly, much less win the Super Bowl, with that, "the window has closed" feeling for the team could do it. The whole season is such a buzzkill for me already. I thought this would be a struggling season with 7 or 8 wins and now so many people are saying, "They might be the worst team in football. They won't even get into the playoffs with the playoffs being expanded. They might have a top 5 draft pick. Cousins was a failed experiment, they should tank for a QB draft pick." Tank for a QB draft pick when the QB is making 30 million a year and would be a 41 million dollar cap hit if cut or traded!
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Re: Pathetic

Post by 9man » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:48 pm

I dont post much but I feel the need to say my peace.

Yes it was only the second game of the season, no pre-season, yada, yada, yada....

Unacceptable to play the way they have these last two games. If this type of play continues and Zimmer remains the head coach I will begin questioning the owners desire for a championship. What makes this team different than the Marvin Lewis Bengals or Jason Garret Cowboys or Jeff Fisher Rams or even the Jeff Fisher Titans? Sometimes a coach reaches his limits. As a fan, I expect more.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by Texas Vike » Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:22 pm

You know what's absolutely mind blowing?

We beat this Saints team in the playoffs last year. I feel confident that they would stomp us by 20-30 points right now.
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Re: Pathetic

Post by S197 » Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:54 pm

Mothman wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:43 am
S197 wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:49 pm
Zimmer has never started 0-2. And this isn’t a hard fought, lost in the last minute 0-2. It’s a team that has been flat out embarrassed in back to back games.

I’m having a hard time figuring out how they turn it around. Hunter, assuming he can come back, could be a catalyst. But in the meantime what can the defense do? I think they need to blitz more often. Zimmer’s scheme seems to get softer every year. Remember the double A gap look? What happened to that? The cover zero blitzes. If you’re going to lose, at least hit the QB in the mouth a few times.
He's never been able to solve the run problems in his defense either and they also seem to be getting worse. Last season, in losses, the Vikes gave up way too much yardage on the ground and 2 games into this season they've already allowed over 300 yards rushing. That's a huge problem.
I do agree with PHP that this team isn’t Trevor Lawrence bad.
I don't think we know. We do know they're bad. They haven't been very competitive in the first two games and a key injury or two could easily send them spiraling into "worst in the league" territory. They appear headed for a top 10 pick and if they keep playing like this, top 3 isn't out of the question.
Run defense has definitely been a problem and has resulted in losses to lesser teams, like Chicago (four times in a row). But overall I just don't see the aggressive style that Zimmer has been known for as of late. His disguised blitzes were always fun to watch but now it just seems like it's a lot of base nickel. Let the other team drive down the field then tighten up in the redzone. If it just started this year, I would chalk it up to lack of personnel experience but he's progressively gotten more conservative for a while now and I wish I knew why.
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