Pathetic

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VikingPaul73
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Re: Pathetic

Post by VikingPaul73 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:17 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:08 am
As for the run defense argument, I wouldnt say run defense has really been a problem until this year. We've always had Linval during Zim's time here and he's always been an elite run defender. Sure there have been a few times it wasnt "great" but it was still very good. Not having Pierce absolutely kills us.

I mean think about it:

We went from:

DE- Hunter
DE- Ngakoue
Rotational DE- Odenigbo
1 tech- Pierce
3 tech- a mixed bag

TO....

DE- Ngakoue
DE- Odenigbo
Rotational DE- Jalyn Holmes
1 tech- Stephen
3 tech- Jaleel Johnson

I dont think I can stress how DRASTIC that drop off is. So in terms of overall talent on the DL right now, I dont think it's on Spielman, Zim or the DL in general. We had a very well built DL coming into this year outside of 3 tech (which I get annoyed with too because I dont get why they havent addressed that). I feel like if anything, the result of this DL was bad luck. Losing Hunter who is hands down the best player on the defense IMO along with Kendricks and losing Pierce is a year there was a damn pandemic going on is just crappy luck.

I honestly liked this years DL coming in quite a bit more than I did last years.

I think Hunter, Ngakoue, Pierce > Hunter, Griff and Joseph. Mainly because we got much younger by doing that and I think Ngakoue is better than Griff at this point in Griffs career and same goes for Pierce compared to Joseph.

But yes, they 100% need to address 3 tech. I think I've picked one fairly early every year since Floyd was done in my mocks and it doesnt happen. Was really hoping James Lynch could make an impact. There's still some hope there but rumor has it he didnt have a good camp
well, I think it's speculation to say that we would have had Ngakoue, Hunter, and Pierce. The Ngakoue trade happened after Pierce opted out and Hunter was injured (technically Hunter injury wasn't announced until after trade, but he did not participate in camp so the Vikings knew he was injured even though we didn't). So it's quite possible, even likely, that the trade never would have happened without those injuries.

That said, I agree 100% with the general argument- Pierce and Hunter were just horrible luck and a HUGE HUGE impact for this DL.
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YikesVikes
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Re: Pathetic

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:43 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:19 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:09 pm


Yeah, I would prefer Griffen and next year's 2nd round pick over Ngakoue for one year, but if he is a long term solution and is more like week 2 than week 1 Ngakoue going forward, it was a good trade.
The biggest differences between Griffen and Ngakoue are:
1. Age
2. Griffen is WAY more effective against the run — since we have DTs who get pushed around in the run game, Griffen's departure hurts even worse.

The loss of Michael Pierce is hugely underrated. Baltimore's run defense suffered when he wasn't in the game ... I read somewhere that 2019 opponents averaged an additional 1.5 yards per carry when Pierce was on the sideline.

Not much we can do about Pierce this year. I fear the pathetic play against the run will continue.
Actually what we can do is sign a run stuffer but this staff refuses to fix key issues on this team. Teams are running the ball on us and constantly in 2nd/3rd and short. Our line can't disrupt anything if everything is a 3 yard pop. Sign Snacks Harrison to a deal. Get in 3rd and 5 and watch our defense play better. Or we can just keep on signing LBs.
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StumpHunter
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Re: Pathetic

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:17 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:43 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:19 pm

The biggest differences between Griffen and Ngakoue are:
1. Age
2. Griffen is WAY more effective against the run — since we have DTs who get pushed around in the run game, Griffen's departure hurts even worse.

The loss of Michael Pierce is hugely underrated. Baltimore's run defense suffered when he wasn't in the game ... I read somewhere that 2019 opponents averaged an additional 1.5 yards per carry when Pierce was on the sideline.

Not much we can do about Pierce this year. I fear the pathetic play against the run will continue.
Actually what we can do is sign a run stuffer but this staff refuses to fix key issues on this team. Teams are running the ball on us and constantly in 2nd/3rd and short. Our line can't disrupt anything if everything is a 3 yard pop. Sign Snacks Harrison to a deal. Get in 3rd and 5 and watch our defense play better. Or we can just keep on signing LBs.
There must be a reason Snacks is unemployed.
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YikesVikes
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Re: Pathetic

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:55 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:17 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:43 pm


Actually what we can do is sign a run stuffer but this staff refuses to fix key issues on this team. Teams are running the ball on us and constantly in 2nd/3rd and short. Our line can't disrupt anything if everything is a 3 yard pop. Sign Snacks Harrison to a deal. Get in 3rd and 5 and watch our defense play better. Or we can just keep on signing LBs.
There must be a reason Snacks is unemployed.
Do we care? Nope!
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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Pathetic

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:44 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:26 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:08 am
As for the run defense argument, I wouldnt say run defense has really been a problem until this year. We've always had Linval during Zim's time here and he's always been an elite run defender. Sure there have been a few times it wasnt "great" but it was still very good. Not having Pierce absolutely kills us.

I mean think about it:

We went from:

DE- Hunter
DE- Ngakoue
Rotational DE- Odenigbo
1 tech- Pierce
3 tech- a mixed bag

TO....

DE- Ngakoue
DE- Odenigbo
Rotational DE- Jalyn Holmes
1 tech- Stephen
3 tech- Jaleel Johnson

I dont think I can stress how DRASTIC that drop off is. So in terms of overall talent on the DL right now, I dont think it's on Spielman, Zim or the DL in general. We had a very well built DL coming into this year outside of 3 tech (which I get annoyed with too because I dont get why they havent addressed that). I feel like if anything, the result of this DL was bad luck. Losing Hunter who is hands down the best player on the defense IMO along with Kendricks and losing Pierce is a year there was a damn pandemic going on is just crappy luck.

I honestly liked this years DL coming in quite a bit more than I did last years.

I think Hunter, Ngakoue, Pierce > Hunter, Griff and Joseph. Mainly because we got much younger by doing that and I think Ngakoue is better than Griff at this point in Griffs career and same goes for Pierce compared to Joseph.

But yes, they 100% need to address 3 tech. I think I've picked one fairly early every year since Floyd was done in my mocks and it doesnt happen. Was really hoping James Lynch could make an impact. There's still some hope there but rumor has it he didnt have a good camp
Could not agree more. It is not the Vikings fault Pierce opted out, that was something they could not have foreseen, but the depth at that NT spot is very concerning. Then we get to 3 tech and I don't understand how they have neglected that position for the past 2 seasons.

I don't know if anyone watched the press conference when Rodgers found out Hunter was going to be out against the Packers week 1, but I have never seen the guy so excited. His eyes just lit up. Rodgers knew what that meant for our defense right away, and that his job Sunday just got that much easier. Not only from a pass rushing standpoint, but against the run as well. Hunter being out is such a huge factor, and there is hope that his return will right the ship just a bit.
Hey we agree on something!! First time for everything :beerock:
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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Pathetic

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:53 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:09 pm
CharVike wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:05 am

Ngakoue was a good trade providing it wasn't a one year rental. We don't need a total rebuild because we have talent so it can be done quickly if things break right. Getting Hunter and Ng in the lineup together should help big time. I don't see Hunter back anytime soon though. Really I'm talking next year already.
Yeah, I would prefer Griffen and next year's 2nd round pick over Ngakoue for one year, but if he is a long term solution and is more like week 2 than week 1 Ngakoue going forward, it was a good trade.
As long as Ngakoue continues to play well, I think they 100% find a way to keep him going forward. Especially given the fact that Ngakoue already came out prior and said he wasnt all about the money, just simply wanted out of Jacksonville's organization.

And the way I look at it is, if Ngakoue re-signs this offseason, you ask yourself, would you rather have him or a 2nd round pick. IMO, we dont find a 2nd round DE as good as Ngakoue. It's surely possible, but Ngakoue is already a proven DE. I take Ngakoue any day of the week as long as he plays well.
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The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
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StumpHunter
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Re: Pathetic

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:01 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:53 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:09 pm


Yeah, I would prefer Griffen and next year's 2nd round pick over Ngakoue for one year, but if he is a long term solution and is more like week 2 than week 1 Ngakoue going forward, it was a good trade.
As long as Ngakoue continues to play well, I think they 100% find a way to keep him going forward. Especially given the fact that Ngakoue already came out prior and said he wasnt all about the money, just simply wanted out of Jacksonville's organization.

And the way I look at it is, if Ngakoue re-signs this offseason, you ask yourself, would you rather have him or a 2nd round pick. IMO, we dont find a 2nd round DE as good as Ngakoue. It's surely possible, but Ngakoue is already a proven DE. I take Ngakoue any day of the week as long as he plays well.
I agree a long term solution at DE is well worth a 2nd round pick, as long as he accepts a reasonable contract. He clearly is not all about the money, but there are better teams out there who have more cap space than we do next year, and he can go to a contender AND make bank if he wants too.
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