Kirk's Stumble

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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by 808vikingsfan » Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:42 pm

vikeinmontana wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:44 am
YikesVikes wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:03 pm


https://whdh.com/news/health-officials- ... nfectants/

"iT StIlL dOeSn'T mAkE hIm rEsPoNsIbLe iF pEoPle ChOoSe tO tAkE wHaT hE sAiD aS gOsPeL"

Face it, the average American isn't too bright, think about the others below them. Our celebraties have a responsibility. They can have an opinion and they can be critized for it. Thats the societly agreement.
I mean, that almost proves my point more than anything. You picked one outlandish thing a public figure said and found an extreme example of someone listening to a stupid opinion. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not a political person at all because I think they're all pretty awful. Trump says things all the time that have me scratching my head. But I'm an adult. I make my own choices. If I did something because the POTUS said to, that's on me....not him.

Like I said, I agree with Kirk completely on this. The science and stats say he has no reason to be fearful of the virus whatsoever. And despite that, he's still doing what he's being made to do in hopes of protecting others. Just as I think most people are. I'm not even a little worried about the virus. I've been working every single day throughout the entire ordeal, and have been in contract with thousands of people. I wear masks when I should, wash my hands often, and give people space. It's a pretty easy concept and I can't pinpoint why some seem to be so angry at others if they don't share their view that this virus is the scariest thing of our lives? :confused:
I don't think you agree with Kirk completely, unless you think mask wearers are stupid?

and another thing to ponder (not directed at you). You usually don't know you have an underlying condition, until you do. Those that are overweight or borderline obese, have high blood pressure, kidney, liver issues, you'd be in the "died because of underlying conditions" category.




Anyone here a little overweight, borderline high bp?
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by vikeinmontana » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:43 pm

808vikingsfan wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:42 pm
vikeinmontana wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:44 am

I mean, that almost proves my point more than anything. You picked one outlandish thing a public figure said and found an extreme example of someone listening to a stupid opinion. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not a political person at all because I think they're all pretty awful. Trump says things all the time that have me scratching my head. But I'm an adult. I make my own choices. If I did something because the POTUS said to, that's on me....not him.

Like I said, I agree with Kirk completely on this. The science and stats say he has no reason to be fearful of the virus whatsoever. And despite that, he's still doing what he's being made to do in hopes of protecting others. Just as I think most people are. I'm not even a little worried about the virus. I've been working every single day throughout the entire ordeal, and have been in contract with thousands of people. I wear masks when I should, wash my hands often, and give people space. It's a pretty easy concept and I can't pinpoint why some seem to be so angry at others if they don't share their view that this virus is the scariest thing of our lives? :confused:
I don't think you agree with Kirk completely, unless you think mask wearers are stupid?

and another thing to ponder (not directed at you). You usually don't know you have an underlying condition, until you do. Those that are overweight or borderline obese, have high blood pressure, kidney, liver issues, you'd be in the "died because of underlying conditions" category.

Anyone here a little overweight, borderline high bp?
Well I think the wording of the question led him to that. Saying a 1 was everyone is stupid, and he said he’s a .00001. But he immediately said he didn’t want to call anyone stupid and was trying to respect their opinions. I think he was speaking more to his fear of the virus based on his comments right after the .00001 statement.

Actions speak louder than words. His actions show respect and he’s doing what he’s asked to do. I feel like the majority of us are. I fall closer in his line of thinking than the other side. Many of us do. It doesn’t mean I don’t trust science or think the virus is a hoax. I just believe that every life matters and we’re walking a slippery slope in how we’re dealing with this thing. I’m supportive of doing what we can to save lives obviously. But we need to acknowledge that other lives are being ruined and even lost on the other end fighting this thing. Businesses going under. Kids education is in the crapper and as a father of three I see it first hand. Honestly, I think our kids are getting absolutely crushed overall. If it was simply a matter of making sacrifices to save the 65 and older population that have made up 75% of the deaths with no negative effects I’d be all for it. But I feel like we’re so caught up in the virus, it’s contagiousness, and lives lost that in general we’re ignoring the many other lives being destroyed and even lost.

That’s my only take. Not trying to be insensitive. Not making light of the virus. Just stating there are way bigger issues than just wearing a mask for a little bit to save lives.
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:30 am

fiestavike wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:37 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:05 pm


The fatality rates of flu vs. COVID isn't slightly increased. The flu averages roughly 38,000 deaths a year with very little national precautions. With an unprecedented number of precautions for this country (SD, Self Isolation, CDC task force, Economic shutdown) we have hit 195,000 deaths. Now think about what that number would be if COVID was treated like the flu with no national interventions. We would be seeing deaths figures in the millions. The two aren't comparable. These are mortality figures over 6 months and we still haven't hit the time of year that respiratory diseases are at their scariest. We are already at 5X the number of deaths while trying to do everything to prevent it.

My hospital ICU had a 80% death rate at one point and a respirator wean rate of 0%. If you ended up on a respirator, you died. I've seen relatively healthy people who could easily live 20 more years, die in a matter of days. When people say (not saying you did) that the people that are dying died of something else and just happened to have COVID, its really upsetting because it simple is not true.
That's fine. For the purposes of my question, it doesn't really matter if Covid is 20 times or 2 times more deadly than the flu. Whatever that number is (or whatever it might be for the next virus, or for the worst flu season, etc) the principle remains the same. Using the society wide protocols we have in place for Covid would presumably also reduce flu deaths. Maybe that means we should be using those protocols for the flu, maybe it doesn't. I'm just asking you to answer those questions, because they are the questions that actually start moving this beyond being a mere ideological pissing match cloaked in 'science' and help bring some philosophical clarity to the issue.
In a perfect world, we would be doing the same thing come flu time. However, given the pushback of wearing a mask, washing hands, and social distancing during a PANDEMIC of a virus we do not fully understand, I doubt the public would stand for it.
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:44 am

vikeinmontana wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:43 pm
808vikingsfan wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:42 pm


I don't think you agree with Kirk completely, unless you think mask wearers are stupid?

and another thing to ponder (not directed at you). You usually don't know you have an underlying condition, until you do. Those that are overweight or borderline obese, have high blood pressure, kidney, liver issues, you'd be in the "died because of underlying conditions" category.

Anyone here a little overweight, borderline high bp?
Well I think the wording of the question led him to that. Saying a 1 was everyone is stupid, and he said he’s a .00001. But he immediately said he didn’t want to call anyone stupid and was trying to respect their opinions. I think he was speaking more to his fear of the virus based on his comments right after the .00001 statement.

Actions speak louder than words. His actions show respect and he’s doing what he’s asked to do. I feel like the majority of us are. I fall closer in his line of thinking than the other side. Many of us do. It doesn’t mean I don’t trust science or think the virus is a hoax. I just believe that every life matters and we’re walking a slippery slope in how we’re dealing with this thing. I’m supportive of doing what we can to save lives obviously. But we need to acknowledge that other lives are being ruined and even lost on the other end fighting this thing. Businesses going under. Kids education is in the crapper and as a father of three I see it first hand. Honestly, I think our kids are getting absolutely crushed overall. If it was simply a matter of making sacrifices to save the 65 and older population that have made up 75% of the deaths with no negative effects I’d be all for it. But I feel like we’re so caught up in the virus, it’s contagiousness, and lives lost that in general we’re ignoring the many other lives being destroyed and even lost.

That’s my only take. Not trying to be insensitive. Not making light of the virus. Just stating there are way bigger issues than just wearing a mask for a little bit to save lives.
I'm really not trying to attack you but IMHO you are comparing economic turmoil, education turmoil to actual lives lost. Social distancing is difficult on us all. However, IMHO asking parents like yourself to step up and supplement their kids school education for a bit longer is worth it if it saves lives regardless of the age group.


Even worse than that are the skewed effect on people of color.

"Death rates among Black people between 55-64 years are higher than for white people aged 65-74, and death rates are higher for Blacks aged 65-74 than for whites aged 75-84, and so on. In every age category, Black people are dying from COVID at roughly the same rate as white people more than a decade older. Age-specific death rates for Hispanic/Latino people fall in between."

"Death rates among Black people between 55-64 years are higher than for white people aged 65-74, and death rates are higher for Blacks aged 65-74 than for whites aged 75-84, and so on. In every age category, Black people are dying from COVID at roughly the same rate as white people more than a decade older. Age-specific death rates for Hispanic/Latino people fall in between"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brooki ... ppear/amp/


The death rates of young victims of this virus is so unequally skewed my view as a POC may be different than yours but I ask your empathy to look outside your demographics and view it's impact on America as a whole.
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by fiestavike » Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:28 am

vikeinmontana wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:43 pm
It doesn’t mean I don’t trust science or think the virus is a hoax. I just believe that every life matters and we’re walking a slippery slope in how we’re dealing with this thing. I’m supportive of doing what we can to save lives obviously. But we need to acknowledge that other lives are being ruined and even lost on the other end fighting this thing. Businesses going under. Kids education is in the crapper and as a father of three I see it first hand. Honestly, I think our kids are getting absolutely crushed overall. If it was simply a matter of making sacrifices to save the 65 and older population that have made up 75% of the deaths with no negative effects I’d be all for it. But I feel like we’re so caught up in the virus, it’s contagiousness, and lives lost that in general we’re ignoring the many other lives being destroyed and even lost.
I think this is a very good point. Its like the mental exercise about the train going down the track. There are 5 people on the track who are about to be killed. You can pull the lever to switch the tracks. There are only 4 people on the other track that will be killed. Do you let "nature take its course" so to speak and remain passive while 5 are killed, or do you take action, which places the other four people's lives directly on yourself, and might have other unforeseen consequences? Still, you would have 'saved a life' in some sense.

In this case, its easier to calculate the damage of letting the train stay on its initial track (though, at this point still a very imperfect calculation), and its much harder to calculate the damage of what we have chosen to do, and of switching the track. As a parent, I can see that too. In terms of education things are going well for us personally, but the social and communal needs of my children are not being met. Not the least concerning is what this experience will do psychologically to a generation of kids who are being made highly neurotic during their formative years. I recently saw my nephew hurry away in fear from a nice boy who wanted to play with him, outside, full sunlight, at a campground. In an already atomized and lonely society, people's isolation is being revealed to be deeper than they ever knew. What held so many of their relationships and social structures together is proving to be very thin and threadbare, their isolation fully exposed. The financial consequences aren't just money, they are families falling apart, children seeing their parents divorce, etc.

I think we are all empathetic to everyone suffering from both the virus, and the response to the virus, if we can step outside ourselves long enough to look at what is happening from a different angle. There is no purely good solution. Any action/inaction involves a heavy dose of bad. If the mask is the compromise that let's us get back to something as close to normal as possible, then I favor the mask, whether it is meaningfully or marginally effective, or even if only psychologically useful (though I really hate the neuroticism it breeds). Same thing with social distancing. If social distancing means '6 feet apart', great, I'm in favor of it as a compromise. But if it means shutting down businesses, everybody shelter in place, then I think the other costs are far too high.
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by fiestavike » Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:35 am

YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:30 am
fiestavike wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:37 pm


That's fine. For the purposes of my question, it doesn't really matter if Covid is 20 times or 2 times more deadly than the flu. Whatever that number is (or whatever it might be for the next virus, or for the worst flu season, etc) the principle remains the same. Using the society wide protocols we have in place for Covid would presumably also reduce flu deaths. Maybe that means we should be using those protocols for the flu, maybe it doesn't. I'm just asking you to answer those questions, because they are the questions that actually start moving this beyond being a mere ideological pissing match cloaked in 'science' and help bring some philosophical clarity to the issue.
In a perfect world, we would be doing the same thing come flu time. However, given the pushback of wearing a mask, washing hands, and social distancing during a PANDEMIC of a virus we do not fully understand, I doubt the public would stand for it.
Just to clarify, by social distancing, do you mean shutting down schools, businesses, etc? Standing 6 feet apart when in public?
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by fiestavike » Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:44 am

YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:44 am


Even worse than that are the skewed effect on people of color.

"Death rates among Black people between 55-64 years are higher than for white people aged 65-74, and death rates are higher for Blacks aged 65-74 than for whites aged 75-84, and so on. In every age category, Black people are dying from COVID at roughly the same rate as white people more than a decade older. Age-specific death rates for Hispanic/Latino people fall in between."

"Death rates among Black people between 55-64 years are higher than for white people aged 65-74, and death rates are higher for Blacks aged 65-74 than for whites aged 75-84, and so on. In every age category, Black people are dying from COVID at roughly the same rate as white people more than a decade older. Age-specific death rates for Hispanic/Latino people fall in between"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brooki ... ppear/amp/


The death rates of young victims of this virus is so unequally skewed my view as a POC may be different than yours but I ask your empathy to look outside your demographics and view it's impact on America as a whole.
To be fair, this isn't entirely unique to covid. There are a lot of reasons for this which are important and worth exploring. I don't think anyone commenting here is less sympathetic to the black people who die from covid than the white people who die from covid.
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by Cliff » Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:23 am

I'm going to go ahead and lock this thread. Everyone has said their piece and honestly it seems there's nowhere for the discussion to go but down. An actual game is about to be played, it appears, so lets try to go back to those subjects. I know obviously Kirk's words have to do with the team but we're well past that now.

Stay safe - and help keep others safe.
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