Kirk's Stumble

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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by YikesVikes » Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:57 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:07 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:58 am


I don't care about his opinion. I care that he was dumb enough to share it and influence others.
So he can have an opinion, but in your opinion he is either dumb for the opinion he has or for sharing his opinion or both. So which of those are you judging and condemning him for?

I'm dumb enough to share my opinion and unsure if it will influence others. The virus is potentially dangerous. Take precautions and you should be fine. Don't cower in your bomb shelter until the vaccine is found. Live your life.

I believe that is very similar to Kirk. I believe he is very safe from the virus due to continuous testing and quarantining process and his age and health.
I love that wearing a masks means you are cowering in a basement. Not only am I going out. I work with people infected with the virus every day. I passed being afraid of the virus months ago.
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by YikesVikes » Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:03 pm

vikeinmontana wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:31 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:07 pm

So he can have an opinion, but in your opinion he is either dumb for the opinion he has or for sharing his opinion or both. So which of those are you judging and condemning him for?

I'm dumb enough to share my opinion and unsure if it will influence others. The virus is potentially dangerous. Take precautions and you should be fine. Don't cower in your bomb shelter until the vaccine is found. Live your life.

I believe that is very similar to Kirk. I believe he is very safe from the virus due to continuous testing and quarantining process and his age and health.
Good post. This is exactly what is wrong with our society right now. We don't hold people accountable, and always look to pass the blame to someone else. Kirk could have said the most outlandish thing ever. It still doesn't make him responsible if people choose to take what he said as gospel. That is asinine. I have athletes and celebrities that I love but don't agree with everything they say or do. I'm a grownup and make my own choices and decisions.

Not only do I not think what he said is wrong, even if it was it is one persons opinion and just that persons. If it comes with consequences that's on him.
https://whdh.com/news/health-officials- ... nfectants/

"iT StIlL dOeSn'T mAkE hIm rEsPoNsIbLe iF pEoPle ChOoSe tO tAkE wHaT hE sAiD aS gOsPeL"

Face it, the average American isn't too bright, think about the others below them. Our celebraties have a responsibility. They can have an opinion and they can be critized for it. Thats the societly agreement.
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by VikingsVictorious » Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:51 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:57 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:07 pm

So he can have an opinion, but in your opinion he is either dumb for the opinion he has or for sharing his opinion or both. So which of those are you judging and condemning him for?

I'm dumb enough to share my opinion and unsure if it will influence others. The virus is potentially dangerous. Take precautions and you should be fine. Don't cower in your bomb shelter until the vaccine is found. Live your life.

I believe that is very similar to Kirk. I believe he is very safe from the virus due to continuous testing and quarantining process and his age and health.
I love that wearing a masks means you are cowering in a basement. Not only am I going out. I work with people infected with the virus every day. I passed being afraid of the virus months ago.
Kirk is wearing a mask. I'm wearing a mask. Not right now, but when I go out in public. So if you're not cowering in fear you're doing the same thing that Kirk and I are doing. We're all doing the same thing, but you have this huge issue with Kirk. His opinion isn't the same as yours? OMG we should lock him up.
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:52 am

YikesVikes wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:03 pm
vikeinmontana wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:31 pm


Good post. This is exactly what is wrong with our society right now. We don't hold people accountable, and always look to pass the blame to someone else. Kirk could have said the most outlandish thing ever. It still doesn't make him responsible if people choose to take what he said as gospel. That is asinine. I have athletes and celebrities that I love but don't agree with everything they say or do. I'm a grownup and make my own choices and decisions.

Not only do I not think what he said is wrong, even if it was it is one persons opinion and just that persons. If it comes with consequences that's on him.
https://whdh.com/news/health-officials- ... nfectants/

"iT StIlL dOeSn'T mAkE hIm rEsPoNsIbLe iF pEoPle ChOoSe tO tAkE wHaT hE sAiD aS gOsPeL"

Face it, the average American isn't too bright, think about the others below them. Our celebraties have a responsibility. They can have an opinion and they can be critized for it. Thats the societly agreement.
Please no. Celebrities are some of the most out of touch, ignorant people out there and if they have some sort of responsibility to guide us in the right direction, we are all f'd.

Kirk didn't say anything wrong unless you want to believe he was implying wearing masks makes people lemmings, which was not his intent. We live in a society that loves to focus on misspoken words, and great gotcha moments, instead of looking at a persons' actions. Actions matter way more than anything you might infer from a sentence in a news article.
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by fiestavike » Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:25 am

Preamble: I realize covid and the flu are not the same thing. I realize covid is more dangerous than the flu. I also realize that nearly everything some folks angry at Kirk have said here about covid could also be applied to the flu.

Question: Why should we not wear masks, socially distance, avoid travel, etc during flu season going forward?
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:48 am

fiestavike wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:25 am
Preamble: I realize covid and the flu are not the same thing. I realize covid is more dangerous than the flu. I also realize that nearly everything some folks angry at Kirk have said here about covid could also be applied to the flu.

Question: Why should we not wear masks, socially distance, avoid travel, etc during flu season going forward?
Because the flu can't be politicized as easily?

My guess is that most doctors would recommend you don't travel if you have the flu, but most people do it anyway. Maybe that changes now.
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by fiestavike » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:53 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:48 am
fiestavike wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:25 am
Preamble: I realize covid and the flu are not the same thing. I realize covid is more dangerous than the flu. I also realize that nearly everything some folks angry at Kirk have said here about covid could also be applied to the flu.

Question: Why should we not wear masks, socially distance, avoid travel, etc during flu season going forward?
Because the flu can't be politicized as easily?

My guess is that most doctors would recommend you don't travel if you have the flu, but most people do it anyway. Maybe that changes now.
If you are sick, you should for sure quarantine yourself to some degree That's been standard practice forever. Thats why you dont go to school or work when you have a cold or flu. Its not primarily because you dont feel well enough to work or learn. So I'd say that's a given. What I'm talking about are these broadly applied safety measures even if you arent sick or have no symptoms. There is no reason they wouldn't apply to the flu as well as to covid that I can see except the somewhat increased fatality rate with covid v. flu. That means in principle we should follow these protocols going forward with the flu as well. Or it means, that we enact these safety protocols when things reach a certain level of risk, and can remove them when they drop below that threshold. That might be useful to know. Which one is it?
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by vikeinmontana » Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:44 am

YikesVikes wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:03 pm
vikeinmontana wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:31 pm


Good post. This is exactly what is wrong with our society right now. We don't hold people accountable, and always look to pass the blame to someone else. Kirk could have said the most outlandish thing ever. It still doesn't make him responsible if people choose to take what he said as gospel. That is asinine. I have athletes and celebrities that I love but don't agree with everything they say or do. I'm a grownup and make my own choices and decisions.

Not only do I not think what he said is wrong, even if it was it is one persons opinion and just that persons. If it comes with consequences that's on him.
https://whdh.com/news/health-officials- ... nfectants/

"iT StIlL dOeSn'T mAkE hIm rEsPoNsIbLe iF pEoPle ChOoSe tO tAkE wHaT hE sAiD aS gOsPeL"

Face it, the average American isn't too bright, think about the others below them. Our celebraties have a responsibility. They can have an opinion and they can be critized for it. Thats the societly agreement.
I mean, that almost proves my point more than anything. You picked one outlandish thing a public figure said and found an extreme example of someone listening to a stupid opinion. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not a political person at all because I think they're all pretty awful. Trump says things all the time that have me scratching my head. But I'm an adult. I make my own choices. If I did something because the POTUS said to, that's on me....not him.

Like I said, I agree with Kirk completely on this. The science and stats say he has no reason to be fearful of the virus whatsoever. And despite that, he's still doing what he's being made to do in hopes of protecting others. Just as I think most people are. I'm not even a little worried about the virus. I've been working every single day throughout the entire ordeal, and have been in contract with thousands of people. I wear masks when I should, wash my hands often, and give people space. It's a pretty easy concept and I can't pinpoint why some seem to be so angry at others if they don't share their view that this virus is the scariest thing of our lives? :confused:
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by YikesVikes » Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:54 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:25 am
Preamble: I realize covid and the flu are not the same thing. I realize covid is more dangerous than the flu. I also realize that nearly everything some folks angry at Kirk have said here about covid could also be applied to the flu.

Question: Why should we not wear masks, socially distance, avoid travel, etc during flu season going forward?
You answered your question with the first sentence. No need for anything else.
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by YikesVikes » Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:05 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:53 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:48 am

Because the flu can't be politicized as easily?

My guess is that most doctors would recommend you don't travel if you have the flu, but most people do it anyway. Maybe that changes now.
If you are sick, you should for sure quarantine yourself to some degree That's been standard practice forever. Thats why you dont go to school or work when you have a cold or flu. Its not primarily because you dont feel well enough to work or learn. So I'd say that's a given. What I'm talking about are these broadly applied safety measures even if you arent sick or have no symptoms. There is no reason they wouldn't apply to the flu as well as to covid that I can see except the somewhat increased fatality rate with covid v. flu. That means in principle we should follow these protocols going forward with the flu as well. Or it means, that we enact these safety protocols when things reach a certain level of risk, and can remove them when they drop below that threshold. That might be useful to know. Which one is it?
The fatality rates of flu vs. COVID isn't slightly increased. The flu averages roughly 38,000 deaths a year with very little national precautions. With an unprecedented number of precautions for this country (SD, Self Isolation, CDC task force, Economic shutdown) we have hit 195,000 deaths. Now think about what that number would be if COVID was treated like the flu with no national interventions. We would be seeing deaths figures in the millions. The two aren't comparable. These are mortality figures over 6 months and we still haven't hit the time of year that respiratory diseases are at their scariest. We are already at 5X the number of deaths while trying to do everything to prevent it.

My hospital ICU had a 80% death rate at one point and a respirator wean rate of 0%. If you ended up on a respirator, you died. I've seen relatively healthy people who could easily live 20 more years, die in a matter of days. When people say (not saying you did) that the people that are dying died of something else and just happened to have COVID, its really upsetting because it simple is not true.
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by S197 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:08 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:54 pm
fiestavike wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:25 am
Preamble: I realize covid and the flu are not the same thing. I realize covid is more dangerous than the flu. I also realize that nearly everything some folks angry at Kirk have said here about covid could also be applied to the flu.

Question: Why should we not wear masks, socially distance, avoid travel, etc during flu season going forward?
You answered your question with the first sentence. No need for anything else.
Agreed. Also, I could be wrong but I don't think the flu has the same spreading features such as a large populace being asymptomatic but still carrying and being able to spread the virus.

That being said, it would probably be helpful if our country had less of a stigma towards masks and they became more commonplace like in many Asian countries when people are ill.

And just to emphasize your preamble, there is magnitudes of difference between the mortality rate of the flu vs COVID. The flu is very much under control with our current measures as seen by the following graph. COVID, absent quarantine measures, would have resulted in that red line going even higher.

Image
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by fiestavike » Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:33 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:54 pm
fiestavike wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:25 am
Preamble: I realize covid and the flu are not the same thing. I realize covid is more dangerous than the flu. I also realize that nearly everything some folks angry at Kirk have said here about covid could also be applied to the flu.

Question: Why should we not wear masks, socially distance, avoid travel, etc during flu season going forward?
You answered your question with the first sentence. No need for anything else.
That's just a lazy attempt to avoid the question. You can't answer the question until its asked, and the 2nd and 3rd sentences cannot be avoided if you want to be intellectually honest. It is a question which is importantant to how we handle not only covid19 now but into the future, and how we'll handle any future possible viruses. I'm not interested in a lazy ideological conversation. I'm asking a sincere question with the hopes of getting beyond exactly that.
Last edited by fiestavike on Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by fiestavike » Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:37 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:05 pm
fiestavike wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:53 am


If you are sick, you should for sure quarantine yourself to some degree That's been standard practice forever. Thats why you dont go to school or work when you have a cold or flu. Its not primarily because you dont feel well enough to work or learn. So I'd say that's a given. What I'm talking about are these broadly applied safety measures even if you arent sick or have no symptoms. There is no reason they wouldn't apply to the flu as well as to covid that I can see except the somewhat increased fatality rate with covid v. flu. That means in principle we should follow these protocols going forward with the flu as well. Or it means, that we enact these safety protocols when things reach a certain level of risk, and can remove them when they drop below that threshold. That might be useful to know. Which one is it?
The fatality rates of flu vs. COVID isn't slightly increased. The flu averages roughly 38,000 deaths a year with very little national precautions. With an unprecedented number of precautions for this country (SD, Self Isolation, CDC task force, Economic shutdown) we have hit 195,000 deaths. Now think about what that number would be if COVID was treated like the flu with no national interventions. We would be seeing deaths figures in the millions. The two aren't comparable. These are mortality figures over 6 months and we still haven't hit the time of year that respiratory diseases are at their scariest. We are already at 5X the number of deaths while trying to do everything to prevent it.

My hospital ICU had a 80% death rate at one point and a respirator wean rate of 0%. If you ended up on a respirator, you died. I've seen relatively healthy people who could easily live 20 more years, die in a matter of days. When people say (not saying you did) that the people that are dying died of something else and just happened to have COVID, its really upsetting because it simple is not true.
That's fine. For the purposes of my question, it doesn't really matter if Covid is 20 times or 2 times more deadly than the flu. Whatever that number is (or whatever it might be for the next virus, or for the worst flu season, etc) the principle remains the same. Using the society wide protocols we have in place for Covid would presumably also reduce flu deaths. Maybe that means we should be using those protocols for the flu, maybe it doesn't. I'm just asking you to answer those questions, because they are the questions that actually start moving this beyond being a mere ideological pissing match cloaked in 'science' and help bring some philosophical clarity to the issue.
Last edited by fiestavike on Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by fiestavike » Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:41 pm

S197 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:08 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:54 pm


You answered your question with the first sentence. No need for anything else.
Agreed. Also, I could be wrong but I don't think the flu has the same spreading features such as a large populace being asymptomatic but still carrying and being able to spread the virus.

That being said, it would probably be helpful if our country had less of a stigma towards masks and they became more commonplace like in many Asian countries when people are ill.

And just to emphasize your preamble, there is magnitudes of difference between the mortality rate of the flu vs COVID. The flu is very much under control with our current measures as seen by the following graph. COVID, absent quarantine measures, would have resulted in that red line going even higher.

Image
Yes, thank you for your response. It may well be that we need to get used to masks as the 'new normal'--at least during flu season--even if we should get to a post-covid time in our history.
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Re: Kirk's Stumble

Post by fiestavike » Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:00 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:48 am
fiestavike wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:25 am
Preamble: I realize covid and the flu are not the same thing. I realize covid is more dangerous than the flu. I also realize that nearly everything some folks angry at Kirk have said here about covid could also be applied to the flu.

Question: Why should we not wear masks, socially distance, avoid travel, etc during flu season going forward?
Because the flu can't be politicized as easily?
Because we are pretending science can answer philosophical questions, and if the questions can be framed properly we can avoid politicizing them, or at least have clarity about our differences without cloaking them in 'science' and then sounding like a bunch of idiots (referring to America collectively, not any one individual) since its not a scientific question.
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