Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

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J. Kapp 11
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:43 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:55 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:29 am

What?

Sure I can. Is Randy on the field every day? Does he break down film? Is he an NFL scout? That doesn't even make sense.

Look, I don't mean to diss anybody here. But you're saying a coach is just throwing out coach-speak, and you have absolutely no basis. They're both telling you WHY Shamar Stephen is valuable to the Vikings D-line, and all you guys are offering is "coach speak."

Coach speak is stuff like, "He's doing some really nice things out there." Glittering generalities. Zimmer does that all the time. But when a coach says, "Here's exactly why he's so valuable," that's not coach speak. And when another player backs it up and basically says, "I wouldn't have these gaudy tackle stats if not for Shamar Stephen," that's even more credible.

Sorry, but I'll always, 100% of the time, take the word of the people on the field over the people on this board ... including myself.
I trust almost nothing that comes out of a coaches mouth. Once in a while I make an exception, but it is the exception. :lol:
Let me give you my perspective. This comes from many years as a journalist, including sports journalism.

It isn't coach-speak just because a coach says it. I always look at WHAT they say and the context in which they say it. I also look at a coach's history. For example, Steve Spurrier had a history of being extremely quotable. He also gave you his unvarnished opinion, even if it didn't place his team in the best light. He was the total antithesis of coach speak.

Mike Zimmer, on the other hand, comes from the Bill Parcells school of All Journalists Are Tools and I'm Only Doing This Press Conference Because Management Says I Have To. Good journalists know when they're getting the runaround, and that's pretty much all you get from Zimmer. I rarely watch a Mike Zimmer presser because he doesn't say anything. He's just trying to get to the point where the PR guy says he can leave the room. In the case of Stephen, a typical answer from Zimmer would have been, "He does what we ask him to do."

But that's not what Andre Patterson said. He basically said, "Don't look at stats because we ask him to do things that don't show up on stat sheets. We ask him to keep offensive linemen from getting to the second level. And if you don't believe me, ask Eric Kendricks about it." To me, that's a totally different thing. Instead of giving an answer that's obviously just a means of getting the interview off the checklist, Patterson actually tells you the specifics of why he thinks Stephen does a good job.

Agree with it or don't agree with it. That's your prerogative. But I would encourage you to take a look at the content before you dismiss everything a coach says.

EDIT: Have you ever noticed that Mike Zimmer almost never does a one-on-one interview? If he does, it's only with Vikings.com people who will lob softballs at him ... not the press or TV at large. That's because (I believe) he can get away with coach speak in a press conference, but in a one-on-one, the interviewer (if he or she is any good) would challenge him on coach speak and non-answers. The Vikings know better than to put him in that position, so they don't ask him to do it.
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by StanM » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:55 pm

My first impression is that this is a good move. This will have the added benefit of buying some time for our new corners to establish themselves. The best way to help a young secondary is to have a relentless pass rush and the have checked that box. I think the unknown will be the middle and how well they can stop the run. If teams are able to run the ball up the middle at will then none of this will matter. Every team has weaknesses and even the best rosters are not bullet proof and are subject to injury and this year the added possibilty of losing players to a positive Covid test. This is going to be a season like no other but if my other favorite sport dirt track Sprint Car racing is any indicator we are in store for some of the best football in years.
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:14 pm

Looks like Reiff is a goner and that are going with O’Neill at LT and Udoh at RT. Interesting but I like it if I was to cut anyone to save cap it would be Reiff. I think I had us cutting him in every mock I did over the last two years and have always pushed to have O’Neill at LT. They must really like what they see out of Udoh. Reiff is simply too slow footed for speed rushers and is not someone you want on cousins blind side. O’Neill on the other hand is the complete opposite. I think it’s the right move


Not going to lie, pretty excited to hear that Udoh might be the guy. Supposedly Cleveland has not taken a single snap at tackle. Strictly LG.

So we’re looking at:

LT- O’Neill
LG- Cleveland or Dozier
C-Bradbury
RG- Elflein or Samia
RT- Udoh or Hill

I’d love to see Cleveland and Samia take over those guard spots. Maybe this line could end up better than we think
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by YikesVikes » Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:25 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:14 pm
Looks like Reiff is a goner and that are going with O’Neill at LT and Udoh at RT. Interesting but I like it if I was to cut anyone to save cap it would be Reiff. I think I had us cutting him in every mock I did over the last two years and have always pushed to have O’Neill at LT. They must really like what they see out of Udoh. Reiff is simply too slow footed for speed rushers and is not someone you want on cousins blind side. O’Neill on the other hand is the complete opposite. I think it’s the right move


Not going to lie, pretty excited to hear that Udoh might be the guy. Supposedly Cleveland has not taken a single snap at tackle. Strictly LG.

So we’re looking at:

LT- O’Neill
LG- Cleveland or Dozier
C-Bradbury
RG- Elflein or Samia
RT- Udoh or Hill

I’d love to see Cleveland and Samia take over those guard spots. Maybe this line could end up better than we think
I liked Udoh coming out of College and was happy when we got him. I wanted both Udoh and Chuma Edoga
I am concerned that this isn't the year to be making these sweeping changes. With no action for Udoh except practice, we really don't know how up to the task he is.
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by Vikecycle » Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:27 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:54 am
Vikecycle wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:03 am

According to last years numbers, both the Packers and Bears edge rushing duo's had more sacks and pressures.
Than Hunter and Ngakoue combined? WOW!!!!!
Can you share the names and the numbers?
Sure.

The Packers duo of Zadarius and Preston Smith had 26 sacks combined. Zadarius was 2nd in the NFL in pressures and Preston was top 15.

The Bears duo of Khalil Mack and Robert Quinn had 20 sacks, Khalil was top 5 in pressures and Quinn was top 15.

So actually, our duo had 2 more sacks then the Bears duo, but less pressures. They had 4 less sacks the GB's duo, with less pressures.

In addition, Zadarius Smith was 1st in the league in double teams and Khalil Mack was 2nd.
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:35 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:36 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:54 pm


Kubiak said Elflein was good last year at guard. Do you agree or do you think you know more than he does?

Or do you think he is talking up his starter who he would probably like to replace, but has no other real options?


Stephen is like the 51st paid DT on average in the NFL. Do you think the Vikings paid him that because he gave them a deal, or because that is about what he is worth? Was Seattle wrong when they cut him in 2019?

I can post the stats that say he was at best a below average DT if you like. I will start here.

Image

Teams chose to double Joseph who is not a pass rusher versus the 3 technique Stephen.

Here are his pressure numbers:
SACKS 1
HURRIES 4
HITS 1
TOTAL PRESSURES 6

Here are Joseph's in comparsion, who was doubled most of the time:

SACKS 3
HURRIES 10
HITS 3
TOTAL PRESSURES 16

What about against the run? Maybe he is good there? Nope.
Stephen not being doubled:
SOLO TACKLES 16
ASSISTS 8
FORCED FUMBLES 1
STOPS 11

Joseph being double teamed:

SOLO TACKLES 27
ASSISTS 14
FORCED FUMBLES 0
STOPS 24

That is Joseph in a down year destroying Stephen's production.

I get your point about the coaches choosing him over another option, but sometimes coaches go with the safer play versus the guy with actual potential to be a positive at a spot. Isn't that the argument for why Zimmer kept Hughes and Hill on the bench behind Waynes and Rhodes despite them "being clearly better"?
And as usual, you failed to read the entire post, specifically the part where both Patterson and Kendricks talk about stats not telling the entire story.

That's a really pretty picture, by the way.
I read the entire post. Joseph takes on two blockers at once and still produced much better stats despite playing a role that "doesn't produce stats". That is why I compared him to Joseph and not Aaron Donald. There is not producing stats, and there is being pretty much non-existent on the stat sheet.

You must not have read my entire post though, because you didn't answer my question. Do you think Kubiak was correct when he said Elf played good last year?
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:51 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:43 pm
But that's not what Andre Patterson said. He basically said, "Don't look at stats because we ask him to do things that don't show up on stat sheets. We ask him to keep offensive linemen from getting to the second level. And if you don't believe me, ask Eric Kendricks about it." To me, that's a totally different thing. Instead of giving an answer that's obviously just a means of getting the interview off the checklist, Patterson actually tells you the specifics of why he thinks Stephen does a good job.
Was there more to this quote, because nowhere does he say Stephen "does a good job".

This reads like a coach trying to find something positive to say about a guy who isn't very impressive.
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by VikingsVictorious » Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:43 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:43 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:55 am

I trust almost nothing that comes out of a coaches mouth. Once in a while I make an exception, but it is the exception. :lol:
Let me give you my perspective. This comes from many years as a journalist, including sports journalism.

It isn't coach-speak just because a coach says it. I always look at WHAT they say and the context in which they say it. I also look at a coach's history. For example, Steve Spurrier had a history of being extremely quotable. He also gave you his unvarnished opinion, even if it didn't place his team in the best light. He was the total antithesis of coach speak.

Mike Zimmer, on the other hand, comes from the Bill Parcells school of All Journalists Are Tools and I'm Only Doing This Press Conference Because Management Says I Have To. Good journalists know when they're getting the runaround, and that's pretty much all you get from Zimmer. I rarely watch a Mike Zimmer presser because he doesn't say anything. He's just trying to get to the point where the PR guy says he can leave the room. In the case of Stephen, a typical answer from Zimmer would have been, "He does what we ask him to do."

But that's not what Andre Patterson said. He basically said, "Don't look at stats because we ask him to do things that don't show up on stat sheets. We ask him to keep offensive linemen from getting to the second level. And if you don't believe me, ask Eric Kendricks about it." To me, that's a totally different thing. Instead of giving an answer that's obviously just a means of getting the interview off the checklist, Patterson actually tells you the specifics of why he thinks Stephen does a good job.

Agree with it or don't agree with it. That's your prerogative. But I would encourage you to take a look at the content before you dismiss everything a coach says.

EDIT: Have you ever noticed that Mike Zimmer almost never does a one-on-one interview? If he does, it's only with Vikings.com people who will lob softballs at him ... not the press or TV at large. That's because (I believe) he can get away with coach speak in a press conference, but in a one-on-one, the interviewer (if he or she is any good) would challenge him on coach speak and non-answers. The Vikings know better than to put him in that position, so they don't ask him to do it.
Yeah. I'm not saying you can never believe what a coach says, but I'm always skeptical. Stephen might be better than he seems.
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by RandyMoss84 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:27 pm

There is a rumor that Ifeadi would move to defensive tackle, I think that would be a good move
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by S197 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:45 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:14 pm
Looks like Reiff is a goner and that are going with O’Neill at LT and Udoh at RT. Interesting but I like it if I was to cut anyone to save cap it would be Reiff. I think I had us cutting him in every mock I did over the last two years and have always pushed to have O’Neill at LT. They must really like what they see out of Udoh. Reiff is simply too slow footed for speed rushers and is not someone you want on cousins blind side. O’Neill on the other hand is the complete opposite. I think it’s the right move


Not going to lie, pretty excited to hear that Udoh might be the guy. Supposedly Cleveland has not taken a single snap at tackle. Strictly LG.

So we’re looking at:

LT- O’Neill
LG- Cleveland or Dozier
C-Bradbury
RG- Elflein or Samia
RT- Udoh or Hill

I’d love to see Cleveland and Samia take over those guard spots. Maybe this line could end up better than we think
By a lot of accounts Udoh was having a very good camp and he also held his own against Mack last year. Reiff has no upside and we need the cap relief so I think this is a good move. The only short-term concern is they moved 40% of the line 2 weeks before the season starts after being pretty emphatic they were going to sort out the line early and stick with it.

Cleveland may eventually take the guard position but right now it's a two way fight between Dozier and Collins. Cleveland is taking 3rd string reps and appears to be struggling with his technique. Samia is also buried on the depth chart.
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:09 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:43 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Let me give you my perspective. This comes from many years as a journalist, including sports journalism.

It isn't coach-speak just because a coach says it. I always look at WHAT they say and the context in which they say it. I also look at a coach's history. For example, Steve Spurrier had a history of being extremely quotable. He also gave you his unvarnished opinion, even if it didn't place his team in the best light. He was the total antithesis of coach speak.

Mike Zimmer, on the other hand, comes from the Bill Parcells school of All Journalists Are Tools and I'm Only Doing This Press Conference Because Management Says I Have To. Good journalists know when they're getting the runaround, and that's pretty much all you get from Zimmer. I rarely watch a Mike Zimmer presser because he doesn't say anything. He's just trying to get to the point where the PR guy says he can leave the room. In the case of Stephen, a typical answer from Zimmer would have been, "He does what we ask him to do."

But that's not what Andre Patterson said. He basically said, "Don't look at stats because we ask him to do things that don't show up on stat sheets. We ask him to keep offensive linemen from getting to the second level. And if you don't believe me, ask Eric Kendricks about it." To me, that's a totally different thing. Instead of giving an answer that's obviously just a means of getting the interview off the checklist, Patterson actually tells you the specifics of why he thinks Stephen does a good job.

Agree with it or don't agree with it. That's your prerogative. But I would encourage you to take a look at the content before you dismiss everything a coach says.

EDIT: Have you ever noticed that Mike Zimmer almost never does a one-on-one interview? If he does, it's only with Vikings.com people who will lob softballs at him ... not the press or TV at large. That's because (I believe) he can get away with coach speak in a press conference, but in a one-on-one, the interviewer (if he or she is any good) would challenge him on coach speak and non-answers. The Vikings know better than to put him in that position, so they don't ask him to do it.
Yeah. I'm not saying you can never believe what a coach says, but I'm always skeptical. Stephen might be better than he seems.
There you go. That’s a good approach. Skepticism in these cases is never a bad thing.
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:13 am

Here’s a little more on the Jags situation, from an Associated Press opinion column called (gulp) The Jaguars Might Be the Worst Franchise in Professional Sports.
The best assessment of the state of the franchise was offered up by former Jaguars cornerback A.J. Bouye, who was mercifully dealt to the Denver Broncos before this year's draft.

''I just never was a part of something like that,'' Bouye said during an interview with SiriusXM NFL Radio. ''It was so many things. From fighting in the locker room and disagreements to people wanting to be gone, I've just never seen that before.''
That might explain Ngakoue’s ridiculously high salary demands, and his eventual desire to leave.
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by RandyMoss84 » Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:56 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:13 am
Here’s a little more on the Jags situation, from an Associated Press opinion column called (gulp) The Jaguars Might Be the Worst Franchise in Professional Sports.
The best assessment of the state of the franchise was offered up by former Jaguars cornerback A.J. Bouye, who was mercifully dealt to the Denver Broncos before this year's draft.

''I just never was a part of something like that,'' Bouye said during an interview with SiriusXM NFL Radio. ''It was so many things. From fighting in the locker room and disagreements to people wanting to be gone, I've just never seen that before.''
That might explain Ngakoue’s ridiculously high salary demands, and his eventual desire to leave.
Jaguars are not even close to the worst franchise in professional sports, that belongs to the Lions and Browns
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:15 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:13 am
Here’s a little more on the Jags situation, from an Associated Press opinion column called (gulp) The Jaguars Might Be the Worst Franchise in Professional Sports.
The best assessment of the state of the franchise was offered up by former Jaguars cornerback A.J. Bouye, who was mercifully dealt to the Denver Broncos before this year's draft.

''I just never was a part of something like that,'' Bouye said during an interview with SiriusXM NFL Radio. ''It was so many things. From fighting in the locker room and disagreements to people wanting to be gone, I've just never seen that before.''
That might explain Ngakoue’s ridiculously high salary demands, and his eventual desire to leave.
They cut Fournette after his best season and I don't think it saved them any cap since he was still on his first round contract. They are paying him 6 million to not play for them.

This is an even more obvious tank than Miami's last year. Minshew must be having a really bad camp.
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by VikingsVictorious » Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:05 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:15 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:13 am
Here’s a little more on the Jags situation, from an Associated Press opinion column called (gulp) The Jaguars Might Be the Worst Franchise in Professional Sports.

That might explain Ngakoue’s ridiculously high salary demands, and his eventual desire to leave.
They cut Fournette after his best season and I don't think it saved them any cap since he was still on his first round contract. They are paying him 6 million to not play for them.

This is an even more obvious tank than Miami's last year. Minshew must be having a really bad camp.
Except Miami didn't tank at all. They started the season looking like the worst team of all time and were playing respectably by the end. My favorite non Vikings game of the year was Miami over New England.
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