Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by Maelstrom88 » Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:38 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:25 pm
I keep hearing everybody today talking about somebody named Beaker? Who the hell is Beaker?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_(Muppet)
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by S197 » Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:47 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:39 pm
S197 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:07 pm
I have concerns about how we will pay him next year as well especially with a diminishing cap. Hopefully he really hated Coughlin and that’s why his price tag was so high because we really can’t afford that contract without losing some significant contributors.

With him and Hunter on the field that should take some pressure off our really young secondary. I don’t know how to feel about this one, part of me is worried we’re in a Sheldon Richardson rental type situation. Then again the Jared Allen trade worked out well. Guess we’ll see.
I doubt he really hates Coughlin or anyone who played or worked with him, why would they?
Why would he take $6 million less and refuse to sign his tag if he was happy with them?
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:54 pm

Maelstrom88 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:38 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:25 pm
I keep hearing everybody today talking about somebody named Beaker? Who the hell is Beaker?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_(Muppet)
If he's a muppet why do we need to sign him? Taken from Daily Norseman.

Kodiakviking
In reply to Pennswoody
Cap space we need for next year.
Beaker 20 mill
Pierce 9 mill
Cook 8mill tag
Yaddick 15-20 mill
Potato 12 mill
Cap decrease 25 mill
That's over 90 million we need to cut to keep those guys. Good luck w/that RS

I've read about us having to sign Beaker next year about 20 times today on various websites.
Last edited by VikingsVictorious on Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:57 pm

S197 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:47 pm
RandyMoss84 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:39 pm


I doubt he really hates Coughlin or anyone who played or worked with him, why would they?
Why would he take $6 million less and refuse to sign his tag if he was happy with them?
He was very unhappy with them, but I don't know why. Did he feel they were low balling him on a contract or was it something else?
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:34 pm

What you all think about a conspiracy theory that the league and owners have handed down a mandate not to sign the Free Agents to depress salaries for the future?
Could trader Rick be going rogue? Or is he helping by signing Ngakoue to a very low-ball deal?
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by S197 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:56 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:57 pm
S197 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:47 pm


Why would he take $6 million less and refuse to sign his tag if he was happy with them?
He was very unhappy with them, but I don't know why. Did he feel they were low balling him on a contract or was it something else?
The Jags fans on Reddit seem to think it’s Coughlin. Personally I don’t follow them close enough to know but I think if you look at that defense and how good it was and how literally everyone left, there’s clearly issues in coaching or management.

By most accounts Yannick is a hard worker that doesn’t bring a lot of drama so for him to be that vocal about wanting out, I think it’s more than just contract issues. That being said, if he has a big year here he will be expecting a big payday and I don’t know how that will be managed.
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by RandyMoss84 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:17 am

S197 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:56 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:57 pm

He was very unhappy with them, but I don't know why. Did he feel they were low balling him on a contract or was it something else?
The Jags fans on Reddit seem to think it’s Coughlin. Personally I don’t follow them close enough to know but I think if you look at that defense and how good it was and how literally everyone left, there’s clearly issues in coaching or management.

By most accounts Yannick is a hard worker that doesn’t bring a lot of drama so for him to be that vocal about wanting out, I think it’s more than just contract issues. That being said, if he has a big year here he will be expecting a big payday and I don’t know how that will be managed.
And you believe Jaguars fans? They are not smart
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by Vikecycle » Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:03 am

PacificNorseWest wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:14 am
Huge. Best bookend DEs in the league probably now.
According to last years numbers, both the Packers and Bears edge rushing duo's had more sacks and pressures.
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:30 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:19 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:06 pm


I would feel better about Patterson having an impact on the guy if he had more than 2 weeks before the season started. My hope was that Hunter being on the other side of him would be the actual difference maker for him, but I found this while looking up double team stats for DTs.

Image

Ngakoue was above average at winning against double teams and was doubled about the same as Griffen, but the thing I am concerned about is how often Josh Allen was doubled last year and Ngakoue still wasn't all that great.

Hopefully a change in scenery coupled with being healthy gets him back to 2017 levels, but if it doesn't, this was a bad trade.

Side note, how do you not have the name of the Hunter on your chart? More proof he is the most underrated DE in football. It does look like Griffen was doubled more than Hunter though (if I guessed right based on the small pictures), which is surprising.
I feel like you think any trade Spielman makes is somehow a bad trade. Bottom line is, if he produces and plays well, it was a good trade. If he flops, I guess it was a "bad trade". A little chart that isnt even listing Danielle Hunter on there isnt going to give you the answer on Ngakoue. But either way, any trade is technically a "gamble". But I think I'd have a hard time ever saying this was a "bad trade". Ngakoue isnt a one year wonder, or even a two year. He's as consistent as they come in terms of rushing the passer and has done it for 4 consecutive years. So do you really blame Zim and Spielman for wanting that? Its not like anyone is sitting here saying "hmm, I wonder if he will crap the bed". There should be zero reason this guy doesnt produce given he stays healthy. If he somehow flopped, Ngakoue did that to himself. The main thing it's about is consistency and if you look at the last 4 years (from a pass rushing standpoint), Ngakoue has been just that.
I don't think this is a bad trade. It might be, but I see both positive and negative parts to it.

As I told VV, a 2nd round pick and 12 million in cap is not a lot to give up for a young edge rusher like Ngakoue was in 2017. Even for a one year rental.

On the flip side, if Ngakoue is a one year rental, has a similar year to 2018 and 2019, and we go 8-8 while a lot of first year starters and rookies get their feet wet, and can't afford to sign either Harris or Cook because we spent 12 million on Ngakoue to go 8-8, wasn't that a bad trade?

This trade has the potential to be a really good one and it has the potential to hurt us in the long run. Not one I would have made based on the information I have in front of me, but I could very well see it working out.
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:29 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:31 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:04 pm

So you know more than they do?

Sorry. I had no idea.
It's Coach Speak Kapp. They will say good stuff all the time up to the point they cut or trade the player. You can't act like Randy's opinion is less valid than what those guys say.
What?

Sure I can. Is Randy on the field every day? Does he break down film? Is he an NFL scout? That doesn't even make sense.

Look, I don't mean to diss anybody here. But you're saying a coach is just throwing out coach-speak, and you have absolutely no basis. They're both telling you WHY Shamar Stephen is valuable to the Vikings D-line, and all you guys are offering is "coach speak."

Coach speak is stuff like, "He's doing some really nice things out there." Glittering generalities. Zimmer does that all the time. But when a coach says, "Here's exactly why he's so valuable," that's not coach speak. And when another player backs it up and basically says, "I wouldn't have these gaudy tackle stats if not for Shamar Stephen," that's even more credible.

Sorry, but I'll always, 100% of the time, take the word of the people on the field over the people on this board ... including myself.
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:36 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:54 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:04 pm

So you know more than they do?

Sorry. I had no idea.
Kubiak said Elflein was good last year at guard. Do you agree or do you think you know more than he does?

Or do you think he is talking up his starter who he would probably like to replace, but has no other real options?


Stephen is like the 51st paid DT on average in the NFL. Do you think the Vikings paid him that because he gave them a deal, or because that is about what he is worth? Was Seattle wrong when they cut him in 2019?

I can post the stats that say he was at best a below average DT if you like. I will start here.

Image

Teams chose to double Joseph who is not a pass rusher versus the 3 technique Stephen.

Here are his pressure numbers:
SACKS 1
HURRIES 4
HITS 1
TOTAL PRESSURES 6

Here are Joseph's in comparsion, who was doubled most of the time:

SACKS 3
HURRIES 10
HITS 3
TOTAL PRESSURES 16

What about against the run? Maybe he is good there? Nope.
Stephen not being doubled:
SOLO TACKLES 16
ASSISTS 8
FORCED FUMBLES 1
STOPS 11

Joseph being double teamed:

SOLO TACKLES 27
ASSISTS 14
FORCED FUMBLES 0
STOPS 24

That is Joseph in a down year destroying Stephen's production.

I get your point about the coaches choosing him over another option, but sometimes coaches go with the safer play versus the guy with actual potential to be a positive at a spot. Isn't that the argument for why Zimmer kept Hughes and Hill on the bench behind Waynes and Rhodes despite them "being clearly better"?
And as usual, you failed to read the entire post, specifically the part where both Patterson and Kendricks talk about stats not telling the entire story.

That's a really pretty picture, by the way.
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:46 am

S197 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:47 pm
RandyMoss84 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:39 pm


I doubt he really hates Coughlin or anyone who played or worked with him, why would they?
Why would he take $6 million less and refuse to sign his tag if he was happy with them?
Exactly.

Here are some facts. Read into them what you will.
Courtney Cronin of ESPN wrote:Ngakoue is the second starter in the past year to essentially force his way out of Jacksonville. Pro Bowl cornerback Jalen Ramsey seemingly faked a back injury to get traded to the Los Angeles Rams in October.

He also is the latest piece of Jacksonville's 2017 defense, which helped the team make the AFC Championship Game, to hit the road. Ngakoue, Calais Campbell, A.J. Bouye, Marcell Dareus, Ramsey, Malik Jackson, Tashaun Gipson, Barry Church and Dante Fowler -- a list that includes seven former Pro Bowlers -- have been traded or cut in the past two years.
Now the Jags have waived Leonard Fournette, who, by the way, out-produced our own Dalvin Cook last season.

No idea whether it's Coughlin, Doug Marrone, or some combination of things, but the culture in Jacksonville is not good.
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by RandyMoss84 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:23 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:46 am
S197 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:47 pm


Why would he take $6 million less and refuse to sign his tag if he was happy with them?
Exactly.

Here are some facts. Read into them what you will.
Courtney Cronin of ESPN wrote:Ngakoue is the second starter in the past year to essentially force his way out of Jacksonville. Pro Bowl cornerback Jalen Ramsey seemingly faked a back injury to get traded to the Los Angeles Rams in October.

He also is the latest piece of Jacksonville's 2017 defense, which helped the team make the AFC Championship Game, to hit the road. Ngakoue, Calais Campbell, A.J. Bouye, Marcell Dareus, Ramsey, Malik Jackson, Tashaun Gipson, Barry Church and Dante Fowler -- a list that includes seven former Pro Bowlers -- have been traded or cut in the past two years.
Now the Jags have waived Leonard Fournette, who, by the way, out-produced our own Dalvin Cook last season.

No idea whether it's Coughlin, Doug Marrone, or some combination of things, but the culture in Jacksonville is not good.
Couglin is not on the team anymore
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by VikingsVictorious » Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:54 am

Vikecycle wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:03 am
PacificNorseWest wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:14 am
Huge. Best bookend DEs in the league probably now.
According to last years numbers, both the Packers and Bears edge rushing duo's had more sacks and pressures.
Than Hunter and Ngakoue combined? WOW!!!!!
Can you share the names and the numbers?
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Re: Yannick Ngakoue to Vikings

Post by VikingsVictorious » Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:55 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:29 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:31 pm

It's Coach Speak Kapp. They will say good stuff all the time up to the point they cut or trade the player. You can't act like Randy's opinion is less valid than what those guys say.
What?

Sure I can. Is Randy on the field every day? Does he break down film? Is he an NFL scout? That doesn't even make sense.

Look, I don't mean to diss anybody here. But you're saying a coach is just throwing out coach-speak, and you have absolutely no basis. They're both telling you WHY Shamar Stephen is valuable to the Vikings D-line, and all you guys are offering is "coach speak."

Coach speak is stuff like, "He's doing some really nice things out there." Glittering generalities. Zimmer does that all the time. But when a coach says, "Here's exactly why he's so valuable," that's not coach speak. And when another player backs it up and basically says, "I wouldn't have these gaudy tackle stats if not for Shamar Stephen," that's even more credible.

Sorry, but I'll always, 100% of the time, take the word of the people on the field over the people on this board ... including myself.
I trust almost nothing that comes out of a coaches mouth. Once in a while I make an exception, but it is the exception. :lol:
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