Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:15 am

S197 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:47 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:45 am


Correct.

The Eagles had good coaching in 2017, but the reason they won it all was because they were the most talented team in football that year. Pederson played a role in acquiring some of that talent, but it was Roseman who was the final say in who the team acquired, similar to how it is Spielman who ends up making the final decision at who the Vikings acquire.

Reid is to offense what Zimmer is to defense. You give Zimmer the best QB in football he will win it all, just like Reid won it all when he got the best QB in football.
Your chances of getting the best QB in football is effectively zero if you never take a chance and draft QBs in the hopes of finding said player.

That obviously is more a Rick problem than Zimmer but it's still a problem.
No because I know where you're going with this. In the past, I have listed all the starting QBs in the NFL and MANY of them were first round QBs. Not, lets take a shot in the dark and draft a 5th round QB type guys. Guys have to stop with the "developmental 5th round guy". Very rarely do mid round QBs turn into good QBs. You have guys like Cousins, Wilson, Dak, maybe a few others. But if we want to draft a QB of the future, chances are it needs to happen in the first round. Im not saying you should NEVER draft a mid round QB but if you have a sound starter like Kirk Cousins, I dont see it as necessary if there isnt a guy you like or that fits your offense. OR if you have other large holes on the roster.

The Colts draft Eason because Rivers is on his last leg. The Eagles draft Hurts because Wentz is an accident waiting to happen. The Packers took Love (which I think was a terrible pick) to try and "replicate" the Favre/Rodgers method. Then they follow it up with a RB when they have Aaron Jones and Jamaal Williams. They easily had the worst draft of anyone this year. I mean the Patriots lose arguably the best QB ever and they didnt draft a single QB. Is anyone going to say Belichick doesnt know how to draft? Belichick clearly didnt see anyone he liked enough to draft and they had a million picks. If Cousins is in a contract year, past his prime, etc. then yeah I would say take one early. But I'd rather fill other areas right now.

Bottom line is, the "lets take a chance on a mid-round guy" method isnt the answer. Just my two cents.
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:29 am

S197 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:32 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:42 am


Have been absent from here for a while and been super busy but trying to get back on when I can.

As for Spielman, I 100% think he deserves an extension. Again, we wouldnt have the talent we do on this team if it wasnt for Spielman and even after what we've lost this offseason talent wise, this is still one of the more overall talented teams in the NFL with what looks like a bright future with a solid looking draft class and another 13 picks already next year.

Spielmans job is to bring in talent. He's not the coach. He isnt out there playing. He has done his job better than a good 80% of GMs in this league since Zimmer has been here. When he finally took over as GM, he's continued to bring in talent to this team and even more so since Zim has been here, especially via the draft.

I mean there has been:

Cook
Mattison
Diggs
Thielen (who he brought in on a workout as an UDFA and kept year after year, when he could have easily cut him)
Jefferson (should be a big time player for us for a long time)
Irv
Bradbury
Oneill
Cleveland (Jury is out but I like the potential there, similar to Oneill)
Hunter
Lynch (will be a stud IMO)
Odenigbo
Kendricks
Barr
Rhodes
Waynes
Alexander
Gladney (solid pick)
Dantzler (who for whatever reason I think will be our next shutdown CB and maybe be even better than Gladney)
Harris
Smith

Sure we can sit here and say he was "part of" the Ponder pick, you can try and blame him for Kalil which is a terrible argument, you can complain about Cousins contract, etc. But you can also complain about any other GM and their "bad moves".

But please tell me how many GMs in this league have brought in the talent he did above?? I can tell you there havent been many. He's been long considered one of the better GMs in the NFL and I 100% agree. I dont care what he did prior to 2012, I dont care what he did in Miami, I care about what he's done to fill this roster with talent, and he's done a damn good job at that if you ask me.
PHP,

I hear what you're saying and I think you bring up a lot of valid points. But you have to admit, you're padding that list a fair amount. You have 5 guys on that list who haven't taken an NFL snap yet and a few guys with some pretty big question marks. I don't think Bradbury has proven anything yet nor has Odenigbo (other than he's a solid backup). Irv had a decent enough rookie year but he didn't exactly light the world on fire.

I think Rick has done a really good job at certain positions. He's found great value at DE with mid-round picks like Robison, Griffen, and Hunter. Trading for Jared Allen. His backups (Odenigo, Weatherly, etc.) were also good picks for where he got them. You could make the same argument for WR where he hasn't had the best luck in early rounds but he's hit some homers in late rounds and also found solid contributors in guys like Jarius Wright, etc.

I think his biggest blind spots are at OL and QB. Kalil, you know, I'm okay with that pick. None of those guys around that pick panned out and he was a promising prospect out of college. When you move Tyron Smith to RT, I can see why that would intrigue scouts. But Rick has really struggled greatly even if you discount that pick. I mean, after Hutchinson have we had any guard that's even remotely average? I think Brandon Fusco may be the best guard we've had, which speaks volumes. He is putting more emphasis on the line the last few drafts so I do give him credit there, but those picks need to pan out. Elflein is not looking good. Bradbury was a rookie but he struggled a lot. O'Neill, and I'm probably in the minority here, but I think he's just an average RT. It's just we haven't seen average in so long that he looks better than he really is. Or maybe more accurately, I don't think he has much of a higher ceiling.

QB we've discussed ad nauseum so I won't go there. I don't think Rick is a bad GM, my biggest fear is he and Zimmer are putting this team in this sort of Goldilocks situation where they're not bad but not great either. So the Vikings are a perpetual wild card team (+ or - a game depending on the season).
Yeah sure I added picks from this year but those picks also scream potential. Where someone like Cameron Smith last year was nothing but a special teamer and not a good pick IMO. I would not be shocked one bit if this years draft class blows the 2015 class out of the water. Jefferson, Gladney, Cleveland, Dantzler, Lynch and Dye have production and potential written all over them. Wonnum and Willekes working with Patterson are two more. Stanley has the potential of being a decent backup.

As for other guys, Bradbury was an excellent run blocker. He needs to get better in pass pro for sure but I still think he has a bright future. Odenigbo has the 4th most snaps at DE behind Hunter, Griff and Weatherly and recorded 7 sacks. That's more than a solid backup if you ask me. That's nearly unheard of recording that many sacks with that snap count.

As for Oneill, I dont have a clue in the world why you believe he's just an average RT. He's allowed 1 sack in two years and that sack was his final game in 2 years against the 49ers in the playoffs. He's 1 of 3 tackles EVER to not allow a single sack in his rookie season with a minimum of 500 snaps.....the only two others to ever do that....Joe Thomas and Ryan Clady. So yeah maybe he doesnt have a higher ceiling because he's allowed 1 sack in 2 years. So really the only ceiling he could hit is allowing 0 sacks in the next 2 years. Oneill is a well above average RT. I'm not sure how a tackle can be considered "average" when he's allowed 1 sack in two years. I literally dont know how that is possible.

Clearly you're more down on these guys than most but again, we can sit here and pick apart Spielman's "mistakes" just like we could with any GM. But I would bet my bank account that he's had a lot less mistakes in the last 5 years than a good 80% or more of the leagues GMs. Even the best of the best GMs have bad draft picks, bad roster moves, bad signings, etc. Spielman has flipped this roster from a very bad one in 2013 to a very good one since Zimmer has been here.
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by RandyMoss84 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:54 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:58 pm
RandyMoss84 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:22 pm


He bought in all the talent for 14 years and no Superbowl yet so no, he does not deserve an extension
As I said, Rick Spielman is not the coach. His job is to bring in talent via the draft and free agency and he's done that at a much better rate than most GMs in the league.
And what have the talent he bought in for 14 years done? Pretty much no Superbowl win, I rather have
Roseman from Eagles, at least he bought in talent and won a Superbowl unlike Speilman and I bet you rather have him too
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:56 am

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:54 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:58 pm


As I said, Rick Spielman is not the coach. His job is to bring in talent via the draft and free agency and he's done that at a much better rate than most GMs in the league.
And what have the talent he bought in for 14 years done? Pretty much no Superbowl win, I rather have
Roseman from Eagles, at least he bought in talent and won a Superbowl unlike Speilman and I bet you rather have him too
Even if Roseman is a better GM than Rick because his team happened to win a Super Bowl so what. Is Roseman a Free Agent GM waiting for someone to sign him? We shall see how good Roseman was in this draft selecting Reagor over Jefferson. Give me Rick 7 days a week.
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by S197 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:42 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:18 pm
S197 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:47 pm


Your chances of getting the best QB in football is effectively zero if you never take a chance and draft QBs in the hopes of finding said player.

That obviously is more a Rick problem than Zimmer but it's still a problem.
I don't think Zimmer or Reid need the best QB in football to win it all. Like most SB winning coaches, they probably need a top 5 one, but not THE best.

My point was that we think Reid is a great coach now that he won it all with Mahomes, but is it really that hard to win it all with Patrick Mahomes at QB? I do give Reid a ton of credit for trading up and getting Mahomes when most coaches would be content with a Kirk Cousins level...errr Alex Smith level QB, and maybe that is the biggest difference between Reid and Zimmer and why one has a ring as a HC and the other doesn't.
I don’t think they need the #1 guy either but Reid’s body of work is far more impressive even if you remove the Super Bowl. He took the Eagles to the Super Bowl as well, didn’t win, but still further than anyone has gone in this franchise in the last 50 years. Not to mention the Eagles made the NFC championship I think 4 years in a row? Zimmer hasn’t put together 2 playoff seasons yet let alone conference appearances. I just don’t see how they’re comparable at this juncture in Zimmer’s career.
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by S197 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:51 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:15 am
S197 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:47 pm


Your chances of getting the best QB in football is effectively zero if you never take a chance and draft QBs in the hopes of finding said player.

That obviously is more a Rick problem than Zimmer but it's still a problem.
No because I know where you're going with this. In the past, I have listed all the starting QBs in the NFL and MANY of them were first round QBs. Not, lets take a shot in the dark and draft a 5th round QB type guys. Guys have to stop with the "developmental 5th round guy". Very rarely do mid round QBs turn into good QBs. You have guys like Cousins, Wilson, Dak, maybe a few others. But if we want to draft a QB of the future, chances are it needs to happen in the first round. Im not saying you should NEVER draft a mid round QB but if you have a sound starter like Kirk Cousins, I dont see it as necessary if there isnt a guy you like or that fits your offense. OR if you have other large holes on the roster.

The Colts draft Eason because Rivers is on his last leg. The Eagles draft Hurts because Wentz is an accident waiting to happen. The Packers took Love (which I think was a terrible pick) to try and "replicate" the Favre/Rodgers method. Then they follow it up with a RB when they have Aaron Jones and Jamaal Williams. They easily had the worst draft of anyone this year. I mean the Patriots lose arguably the best QB ever and they didnt draft a single QB. Is anyone going to say Belichick doesnt know how to draft? Belichick clearly didnt see anyone he liked enough to draft and they had a million picks. If Cousins is in a contract year, past his prime, etc. then yeah I would say take one early. But I'd rather fill other areas right now.

Bottom line is, the "lets take a chance on a mid-round guy" method isnt the answer. Just my two cents.
Well Rick is saying NEVER draft a mid-round QB. We have enough Spielman drafts to pretty definitively say that. Despite 10, 11, 15 picks. Unless your argument is John David Booty, what, 15 years ago? It’s pretty obvious he’s never going to do it and the carousel at QB we’ve had makes it all the more head scratching. I find it hard to believe in over a decade he’s never had the opportunity or need to draft a developmental QB.

Also the Patriots are not the example you want to use. They drafted both Jimmy G and Brissett despite having Tom Brady.

Even if you believe Cousins is great, QBs get hurt, you would think the Vikings more than any other team would realize this. And of course the biggest irony of all is Cousins was drafted as a developmental QB by the Redskins after grabbing RG3 in round 1 that same year. To recap, a team paying $30M A year to a developmental QB after being snake bitten by QB injuries for years doesn’t see the value in developmental QBs. It’s almost comical if it wasn’t so sad.
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by StumpHunter » Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:01 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:29 am
S197 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:32 pm


PHP,

I hear what you're saying and I think you bring up a lot of valid points. But you have to admit, you're padding that list a fair amount. You have 5 guys on that list who haven't taken an NFL snap yet and a few guys with some pretty big question marks. I don't think Bradbury has proven anything yet nor has Odenigbo (other than he's a solid backup). Irv had a decent enough rookie year but he didn't exactly light the world on fire.

I think Rick has done a really good job at certain positions. He's found great value at DE with mid-round picks like Robison, Griffen, and Hunter. Trading for Jared Allen. His backups (Odenigo, Weatherly, etc.) were also good picks for where he got them. You could make the same argument for WR where he hasn't had the best luck in early rounds but he's hit some homers in late rounds and also found solid contributors in guys like Jarius Wright, etc.

I think his biggest blind spots are at OL and QB. Kalil, you know, I'm okay with that pick. None of those guys around that pick panned out and he was a promising prospect out of college. When you move Tyron Smith to RT, I can see why that would intrigue scouts. But Rick has really struggled greatly even if you discount that pick. I mean, after Hutchinson have we had any guard that's even remotely average? I think Brandon Fusco may be the best guard we've had, which speaks volumes. He is putting more emphasis on the line the last few drafts so I do give him credit there, but those picks need to pan out. Elflein is not looking good. Bradbury was a rookie but he struggled a lot. O'Neill, and I'm probably in the minority here, but I think he's just an average RT. It's just we haven't seen average in so long that he looks better than he really is. Or maybe more accurately, I don't think he has much of a higher ceiling.

QB we've discussed ad nauseum so I won't go there. I don't think Rick is a bad GM, my biggest fear is he and Zimmer are putting this team in this sort of Goldilocks situation where they're not bad but not great either. So the Vikings are a perpetual wild card team (+ or - a game depending on the season).
Yeah sure I added picks from this year but those picks also scream potential. Where someone like Cameron Smith last year was nothing but a special teamer and not a good pick IMO. I would not be shocked one bit if this years draft class blows the 2015 class out of the water. Jefferson, Gladney, Cleveland, Dantzler, Lynch and Dye have production and potential written all over them. Wonnum and Willekes working with Patterson are two more. Stanley has the potential of being a decent backup.

As for other guys, Bradbury was an excellent run blocker. He needs to get better in pass pro for sure but I still think he has a bright future. Odenigbo has the 4th most snaps at DE behind Hunter, Griff and Weatherly and recorded 7 sacks. That's more than a solid backup if you ask me. That's nearly unheard of recording that many sacks with that snap count.

As for Oneill, I dont have a clue in the world why you believe he's just an average RT. He's allowed 1 sack in two years and that sack was his final game in 2 years against the 49ers in the playoffs. He's 1 of 3 tackles EVER to not allow a single sack in his rookie season with a minimum of 500 snaps.....the only two others to ever do that....Joe Thomas and Ryan Clady. So yeah maybe he doesnt have a higher ceiling because he's allowed 1 sack in 2 years. So really the only ceiling he could hit is allowing 0 sacks in the next 2 years. Oneill is a well above average RT. I'm not sure how a tackle can be considered "average" when he's allowed 1 sack in two years. I literally dont know how that is possible.

Clearly you're more down on these guys than most but again, we can sit here and pick apart Spielman's "mistakes" just like we could with any GM. But I would bet my bank account that he's had a lot less mistakes in the last 5 years than a good 80% or more of the leagues GMs. Even the best of the best GMs have bad draft picks, bad roster moves, bad signings, etc. Spielman has flipped this roster from a very bad one in 2013 to a very good one since Zimmer has been here.
He is? Wanting to actually see a player perform well before crowning them great picks seems pretty reasonable to me. The one guy he is probably down on more than most Vikings fans is ONiel, but his statement is right in line with what PFF says about him.
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by S197 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:01 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:29 am
S197 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:32 pm


PHP,

I hear what you're saying and I think you bring up a lot of valid points. But you have to admit, you're padding that list a fair amount. You have 5 guys on that list who haven't taken an NFL snap yet and a few guys with some pretty big question marks. I don't think Bradbury has proven anything yet nor has Odenigbo (other than he's a solid backup). Irv had a decent enough rookie year but he didn't exactly light the world on fire.

I think Rick has done a really good job at certain positions. He's found great value at DE with mid-round picks like Robison, Griffen, and Hunter. Trading for Jared Allen. His backups (Odenigo, Weatherly, etc.) were also good picks for where he got them. You could make the same argument for WR where he hasn't had the best luck in early rounds but he's hit some homers in late rounds and also found solid contributors in guys like Jarius Wright, etc.

I think his biggest blind spots are at OL and QB. Kalil, you know, I'm okay with that pick. None of those guys around that pick panned out and he was a promising prospect out of college. When you move Tyron Smith to RT, I can see why that would intrigue scouts. But Rick has really struggled greatly even if you discount that pick. I mean, after Hutchinson have we had any guard that's even remotely average? I think Brandon Fusco may be the best guard we've had, which speaks volumes. He is putting more emphasis on the line the last few drafts so I do give him credit there, but those picks need to pan out. Elflein is not looking good. Bradbury was a rookie but he struggled a lot. O'Neill, and I'm probably in the minority here, but I think he's just an average RT. It's just we haven't seen average in so long that he looks better than he really is. Or maybe more accurately, I don't think he has much of a higher ceiling.

QB we've discussed ad nauseum so I won't go there. I don't think Rick is a bad GM, my biggest fear is he and Zimmer are putting this team in this sort of Goldilocks situation where they're not bad but not great either. So the Vikings are a perpetual wild card team (+ or - a game depending on the season).
Yeah sure I added picks from this year but those picks also scream potential. Where someone like Cameron Smith last year was nothing but a special teamer and not a good pick IMO. I would not be shocked one bit if this years draft class blows the 2015 class out of the water. Jefferson, Gladney, Cleveland, Dantzler, Lynch and Dye have production and potential written all over them. Wonnum and Willekes working with Patterson are two more. Stanley has the potential of being a decent backup.

As for other guys, Bradbury was an excellent run blocker. He needs to get better in pass pro for sure but I still think he has a bright future. Odenigbo has the 4th most snaps at DE behind Hunter, Griff and Weatherly and recorded 7 sacks. That's more than a solid backup if you ask me. That's nearly unheard of recording that many sacks with that snap count.

As for Oneill, I dont have a clue in the world why you believe he's just an average RT. He's allowed 1 sack in two years and that sack was his final game in 2 years against the 49ers in the playoffs. He's 1 of 3 tackles EVER to not allow a single sack in his rookie season with a minimum of 500 snaps.....the only two others to ever do that....Joe Thomas and Ryan Clady. So yeah maybe he doesnt have a higher ceiling because he's allowed 1 sack in 2 years. So really the only ceiling he could hit is allowing 0 sacks in the next 2 years. Oneill is a well above average RT. I'm not sure how a tackle can be considered "average" when he's allowed 1 sack in two years. I literally dont know how that is possible.

Clearly you're more down on these guys than most but again, we can sit here and pick apart Spielman's "mistakes" just like we could with any GM. But I would bet my bank account that he's had a lot less mistakes in the last 5 years than a good 80% or more of the leagues GMs. Even the best of the best GMs have bad draft picks, bad roster moves, bad signings, etc. Spielman has flipped this roster from a very bad one in 2013 to a very good one since Zimmer has been here.
Bradbury graded poorly overall. If you can find a publication that says otherwise, I’d love to read it. PFF has him graded 30th of 37 centers.

We’ll see about the draft picks but right now it’s way too premature to add them to any list. Ifeadi was disruptive for sure and is promising but we don’t know if he can keep that level of intensity with the load of a starter. Also sacks isn’t everything, especially in Zimmer’s defense where the DL is actually tasked with run contain over penetration.

There was a great breakdown of O’Neill that I’ll try to find. It basically showed his strengths and his weaknesses. I thought the author did a great conclusion on why he felt O’Neill was a good but unlikely never to be great tackle. Not giving up sacks isn’t as big a feat either as you just need to contain your guy longer than the rest of your lineman. And with the rest of our line blocking like Swiss cheese, it’s not such a feat. Like I said, I know I’m in the minority on this. I would take 5 guys playing at O’Neills level for sure so I don’t really want to split hairs but I will try to find that article.
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:43 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:54 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:58 pm


As I said, Rick Spielman is not the coach. His job is to bring in talent via the draft and free agency and he's done that at a much better rate than most GMs in the league.
And what have the talent he bought in for 14 years done? Pretty much no Superbowl win, I rather have
Roseman from Eagles, at least he bought in talent and won a Superbowl unlike Speilman and I bet you rather have him too
Again you keep missing the point. The GM doesn’t “win the super bowl”. His job is to bring in talent. Zimmers job and the teams job is to win the SB. The only control spielman has is to bring in the talent and he has done that.
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:48 pm

S197 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:51 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:15 am


No because I know where you're going with this. In the past, I have listed all the starting QBs in the NFL and MANY of them were first round QBs. Not, lets take a shot in the dark and draft a 5th round QB type guys. Guys have to stop with the "developmental 5th round guy". Very rarely do mid round QBs turn into good QBs. You have guys like Cousins, Wilson, Dak, maybe a few others. But if we want to draft a QB of the future, chances are it needs to happen in the first round. Im not saying you should NEVER draft a mid round QB but if you have a sound starter like Kirk Cousins, I dont see it as necessary if there isnt a guy you like or that fits your offense. OR if you have other large holes on the roster.

The Colts draft Eason because Rivers is on his last leg. The Eagles draft Hurts because Wentz is an accident waiting to happen. The Packers took Love (which I think was a terrible pick) to try and "replicate" the Favre/Rodgers method. Then they follow it up with a RB when they have Aaron Jones and Jamaal Williams. They easily had the worst draft of anyone this year. I mean the Patriots lose arguably the best QB ever and they didnt draft a single QB. Is anyone going to say Belichick doesnt know how to draft? Belichick clearly didnt see anyone he liked enough to draft and they had a million picks. If Cousins is in a contract year, past his prime, etc. then yeah I would say take one early. But I'd rather fill other areas right now.

Bottom line is, the "lets take a chance on a mid-round guy" method isnt the answer. Just my two cents.
Well Rick is saying NEVER draft a mid-round QB. We have enough Spielman drafts to pretty definitively say that. Despite 10, 11, 15 picks. Unless your argument is John David Booty, what, 15 years ago? It’s pretty obvious he’s never going to do it and the carousel at QB we’ve had makes it all the more head scratching. I find it hard to believe in over a decade he’s never had the opportunity or need to draft a developmental QB.

Also the Patriots are not the example you want to use. They drafted both Jimmy G and Brissett despite having Tom Brady.

Even if you believe Cousins is great, QBs get hurt, you would think the Vikings more than any other team would realize this. And of course the biggest irony of all is Cousins was drafted as a developmental QB by the Redskins after grabbing RG3 in round 1 that same year. To recap, a team paying $30M A year to a developmental QB after being snake bitten by QB injuries for years doesn’t see the value in developmental QBs. It’s almost comical if it wasn’t so sad.
Yeah the patriots also drafted Mallett. And what happened to those guys?? They left via free agency or by trade. So how valuable were they?Clearly not enough to keep them around. Regardless, that is irrelevant to my point. They lose arguably the best QB to ever do it and draft nobody. And go and sign a bum in cam newton. How does belichick not draft a guy like Jalen Hurts?
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:57 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:01 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:29 am


Yeah sure I added picks from this year but those picks also scream potential. Where someone like Cameron Smith last year was nothing but a special teamer and not a good pick IMO. I would not be shocked one bit if this years draft class blows the 2015 class out of the water. Jefferson, Gladney, Cleveland, Dantzler, Lynch and Dye have production and potential written all over them. Wonnum and Willekes working with Patterson are two more. Stanley has the potential of being a decent backup.

As for other guys, Bradbury was an excellent run blocker. He needs to get better in pass pro for sure but I still think he has a bright future. Odenigbo has the 4th most snaps at DE behind Hunter, Griff and Weatherly and recorded 7 sacks. That's more than a solid backup if you ask me. That's nearly unheard of recording that many sacks with that snap count.

As for Oneill, I dont have a clue in the world why you believe he's just an average RT. He's allowed 1 sack in two years and that sack was his final game in 2 years against the 49ers in the playoffs. He's 1 of 3 tackles EVER to not allow a single sack in his rookie season with a minimum of 500 snaps.....the only two others to ever do that....Joe Thomas and Ryan Clady. So yeah maybe he doesnt have a higher ceiling because he's allowed 1 sack in 2 years. So really the only ceiling he could hit is allowing 0 sacks in the next 2 years. Oneill is a well above average RT. I'm not sure how a tackle can be considered "average" when he's allowed 1 sack in two years. I literally dont know how that is possible.

Clearly you're more down on these guys than most but again, we can sit here and pick apart Spielman's "mistakes" just like we could with any GM. But I would bet my bank account that he's had a lot less mistakes in the last 5 years than a good 80% or more of the leagues GMs. Even the best of the best GMs have bad draft picks, bad roster moves, bad signings, etc. Spielman has flipped this roster from a very bad one in 2013 to a very good one since Zimmer has been here.
He is? Wanting to actually see a player perform well before crowning them great picks seems pretty reasonable to me. The one guy he is probably down on more than most Vikings fans is ONiel, but his statement is right in line with what PFF says about him.
I’m not crowning them as great picks either. They are high potential picks. Without playing yet, they look like excellent picks but yeah, clearly they need to play first. I’m also not going to sit here and say I’m not excited about guys like Justin Jefferson, gladney, Cleveland, dantzler, etc. Is anyone calling them bad picks? No fans are excited because of their POTENTIAL. So yeah, that’s exactly why I listed them.

As for O’Neill, his statement was that O’Neill was “average”. But I will repeat, an offensive tackle that allows 1 sack in two years is much better than “average”. No matter which way you put it. That’s insanely hard for any OL to pull off.
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by S197 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:03 am

His athleticism leads him to be a good run blocker in a scheme that plays to his strength. But his pass protection is sub-par due to his questionable balance and leverage at times. So I split the difference and said he was average. I was probably too harsh on his ceiling, he does have the chance to be very good but he needs more work to get there than some think.

His balance issues as an example: https://streamable.com/dotn6d

The second clip reinforces my point about giving up sacks isn’t a great stat. He’s clearly beat on the play, it’s just he’s .5 seconds less worse than the TE.
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:14 am

S197 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:51 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:15 am


No because I know where you're going with this. In the past, I have listed all the starting QBs in the NFL and MANY of them were first round QBs. Not, lets take a shot in the dark and draft a 5th round QB type guys. Guys have to stop with the "developmental 5th round guy". Very rarely do mid round QBs turn into good QBs. You have guys like Cousins, Wilson, Dak, maybe a few others. But if we want to draft a QB of the future, chances are it needs to happen in the first round. Im not saying you should NEVER draft a mid round QB but if you have a sound starter like Kirk Cousins, I dont see it as necessary if there isnt a guy you like or that fits your offense. OR if you have other large holes on the roster.

The Colts draft Eason because Rivers is on his last leg. The Eagles draft Hurts because Wentz is an accident waiting to happen. The Packers took Love (which I think was a terrible pick) to try and "replicate" the Favre/Rodgers method. Then they follow it up with a RB when they have Aaron Jones and Jamaal Williams. They easily had the worst draft of anyone this year. I mean the Patriots lose arguably the best QB ever and they didnt draft a single QB. Is anyone going to say Belichick doesnt know how to draft? Belichick clearly didnt see anyone he liked enough to draft and they had a million picks. If Cousins is in a contract year, past his prime, etc. then yeah I would say take one early. But I'd rather fill other areas right now.

Bottom line is, the "lets take a chance on a mid-round guy" method isnt the answer. Just my two cents.
Well Rick is saying NEVER draft a mid-round QB. We have enough Spielman drafts to pretty definitively say that. Despite 10, 11, 15 picks. Unless your argument is John David Booty, what, 15 years ago? It’s pretty obvious he’s never going to do it and the carousel at QB we’ve had makes it all the more head scratching. I find it hard to believe in over a decade he’s never had the opportunity or need to draft a developmental QB.

Also the Patriots are not the example you want to use. They drafted both Jimmy G and Brissett despite having Tom Brady.

Even if you believe Cousins is great, QBs get hurt, you would think the Vikings more than any other team would realize this. And of course the biggest irony of all is Cousins was drafted as a developmental QB by the Redskins after grabbing RG3 in round 1 that same year. To recap, a team paying $30M A year to a developmental QB after being snake bitten by QB injuries for years doesn’t see the value in developmental QBs. It’s almost comical if it wasn’t so sad.
If the Vikings see an opportunity to take a QB in the mid rounds that they believe has a good chance to develop they will take that QB.
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:21 am

S197 wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:03 am
His athleticism leads him to be a good run blocker in a scheme that plays to his strength. But his pass protection is sub-par due to his questionable balance and leverage at times. So I split the difference and said he was average. I was probably too harsh on his ceiling, he does have the chance to be very good but he needs more work to get there than some think.

His balance issues as an example: https://streamable.com/dotn6d

The second clip reinforces my point about giving up sacks isn’t a great stat. He’s clearly beat on the play, it’s just he’s .5 seconds less worse than the TE.
Every OL is going to be beat on some plays. An every down RT like O'Neill will be playing close to 1000 snaps a year right. So you finding a play where he got beat doesn't mean much to me. Out of 1000 snaps let's say 500 pass protection snaps he allowed the QB to be sacked on one of them. I can happily live with that. According to you pass pro is his weakness. His run blocking must be sensational.
I see the Vikings O Line being Elite in three years. Not good, but Elite. Mark this post and let's revisit it in three years. That will be the 23 season. It will be top 10 for the 22 season so let's check in on that one.
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by S197 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:10 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:21 am
S197 wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:03 am
His athleticism leads him to be a good run blocker in a scheme that plays to his strength. But his pass protection is sub-par due to his questionable balance and leverage at times. So I split the difference and said he was average. I was probably too harsh on his ceiling, he does have the chance to be very good but he needs more work to get there than some think.

His balance issues as an example: https://streamable.com/dotn6d

The second clip reinforces my point about giving up sacks isn’t a great stat. He’s clearly beat on the play, it’s just he’s .5 seconds less worse than the TE.
Every OL is going to be beat on some plays. An every down RT like O'Neill will be playing close to 1000 snaps a year right. So you finding a play where he got beat doesn't mean much to me. Out of 1000 snaps let's say 500 pass protection snaps he allowed the QB to be sacked on one of them. I can happily live with that. According to you pass pro is his weakness. His run blocking must be sensational.
I see the Vikings O Line being Elite in three years. Not good, but Elite. Mark this post and let's revisit it in three years. That will be the 23 season. It will be top 10 for the 22 season so let's check in on that one.
I hope you’re right. I’d even settle for an above average line. I do like that Rick has been making a more concerted effort at the OL in recent drafts.
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