Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

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RandyMoss84
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by RandyMoss84 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:07 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:52 pm
IMO Zimmer was by far the best HC available and it was very wise to get him locked in. There's no such thing as a coach who's not good enough to win a Super Bowl. Give any NFL caliber HC a good enough team and he will win it all. When these rookies of the next two years gel with our current roster we are going to be dominant and moving on from Zimmer for a new coach could set us back years. Congrats to the Vikings and Zimmer and Vikings fans. Titles are coming soon. :D :rock: :govikes: :banana: :appl:
We have been waiting for a title for 6 years since Zimmer has been here so do not hold your breath on titles coming soon
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by dkoby » Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:32 am

YikesVikes wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:34 pm
Zimmer's coaching record: 57–38–1
All this while
1. Taking over a really bad 2013 team
2. Losng AP to suspension
3. Losing TB to freak injury
4. Losing Bradford to freak injury
5. Almost losing and eye to freak injury
6. Changing OC almost every year.

While I feel that the Vikings have underperformed a lot during this time. I don't mind a coach with a 60% win rate who had to overcome some tough circumstances.
Add in the fact they also lost Tony Sporano right before a season started. zimmer has had to overcome some very bad adverse situations.

If people think Zimmer is a bad head coach for his record, they should go back and compare it to Bill Cowhers record. I believe he had 3 seasons in a row without a winning record, but went on and won a Super Bowl. Even enduring the Cordell Stewart experiment.

Anyone here think Bill Cowher is a bad coach?
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by VikingPaul73 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:46 am

I could be wrong, but I don't think I've ever read anyone on this board call Zim a "bad coach"

the concerns I have read are:

1. Focuses too much on Defense and not the entire team.
2. Does not have clear direction for offense as evidenced by high OC turnover. Hires like pass happy DeFelipo are inconsistent with his apparent offensive philosophy (although hopefully this is corrected with Kubiak)
3. a good coach that can get to the playoffs, but will ultimately be out coached by "great" coaches - ie he's hit his ceiling
4. often unprepared and out matched in critical games (very similar to #2)

But I don't recall ever reading on this board anyone call him a "bad" coach (unless maybe in a drunken rant after a bad loss :lol: :lol: )
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by RandyMoss84 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:05 pm

dkoby wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:32 am
YikesVikes wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:34 pm
Zimmer's coaching record: 57–38–1
All this while
1. Taking over a really bad 2013 team
2. Losng AP to suspension
3. Losing TB to freak injury
4. Losing Bradford to freak injury
5. Almost losing and eye to freak injury
6. Changing OC almost every year.

While I feel that the Vikings have underperformed a lot during this time. I don't mind a coach with a 60% win rate who had to overcome some tough circumstances.
Add in the fact they also lost Tony Sporano right before a season started. zimmer has had to overcome some very bad adverse situations.

If people think Zimmer is a bad head coach for his record, they should go back and compare it to Bill Cowhers record. I believe he had 3 seasons in a row without a winning record, but went on and won a Super Bowl. Even enduring the Cordell Stewart experiment.

Anyone here think Bill Cowher is a bad coach?
No one said Zimmer is a bad coach and Cowher only have 2 seasons in a row without a winning record and that is not even a good comparison and I doubt anyone thinks Cowher is a bad coach since his record is 161-99-1 with a Superbowl win
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:30 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:07 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:52 pm
IMO Zimmer was by far the best HC available and it was very wise to get him locked in. There's no such thing as a coach who's not good enough to win a Super Bowl. Give any NFL caliber HC a good enough team and he will win it all. When these rookies of the next two years gel with our current roster we are going to be dominant and moving on from Zimmer for a new coach could set us back years. Congrats to the Vikings and Zimmer and Vikings fans. Titles are coming soon. :D :rock: :govikes: :banana: :appl:
We have been waiting for a title for 6 years since Zimmer has been here so do not hold your breath on titles coming soon
I won't be holding my breath for it. I can only do that for 2 minutes and the season end and the end of the next 5 to 10 seasons are way longer than 2 minutes away. However, I am very much expecting multiple titles within the next ten years. Maybe within the next 5.
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by RandyMoss84 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:30 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:30 pm
RandyMoss84 wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:07 pm


We have been waiting for a title for 6 years since Zimmer has been here so do not hold your breath on titles coming soon
I won't be holding my breath for it. I can only do that for 2 minutes and the season end and the end of the next 5 to 10 seasons are way longer than 2 minutes away. However, I am very much expecting multiple titles within the next ten years. Maybe within the next 5.
Good luck with that since Zimmer continues to get outcoached in big games
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by VikingsVictorious » Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:10 am

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:30 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:30 pm

I won't be holding my breath for it. I can only do that for 2 minutes and the season end and the end of the next 5 to 10 seasons are way longer than 2 minutes away. However, I am very much expecting multiple titles within the next ten years. Maybe within the next 5.
Good luck with that since Zimmer continues to get outcoached in big games
It's amazing how the coaching seems to improve as the players improve. Once the new players gel with the old, Zim won't have any problem coaching in big, small or medium games.
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:17 am

VikingPaul73 wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:46 am
I could be wrong, but I don't think I've ever read anyone on this board call Zim a "bad coach"

the concerns I have read are:

1. Focuses too much on Defense and not the entire team.
2. Does not have clear direction for offense as evidenced by high OC turnover. Hires like pass happy DeFelipo are inconsistent with his apparent offensive philosophy (although hopefully this is corrected with Kubiak)
3. a good coach that can get to the playoffs, but will ultimately be out coached by "great" coaches - ie he's hit his ceiling
4. often unprepared and out matched in critical games (very similar to #2)

But I don't recall ever reading on this board anyone call him a "bad" coach (unless maybe in a drunken rant after a bad loss :lol: :lol: )
1. This is a legit concern that would be easily fixed with a change at GM. Rick and Zimmer strengths are both defenses, and both their weaknesses are on offense. It is a bad pairing.
2. I don't get this. Flip was hired to show off the shiny new QB, and he did just that. Outside of that year, Zimmer has gotten the best out of each QB he has coached. Bradford, Case, Teddy, and Cousins all were incredibly accurate (for Case incredibly accurate compared to the rest of his career) and took care of the football, again, outside of 2018. Zimmer has an offense he wants run in mind, and Flip didn't run it, so he was fired.
3. He certainly wasn't out coached by Pete Carrol or Payton X2. He was caught off guard by the Eagles offense in 2017(so was Bill), and got steamrolled by the Niners run game, just like the Packers and KC did. KC had the QB to force the Niners to move away from the run, and they ended up winning.
4. This is true sometimes, other times it isn't. It wasn't true in 2015 against the Packers for the division. It was against the Bears in 2018. Wasn't true against the Saints in the 2017 playoffs, but it was against the Eagles, who again, Bill wasn't prepared against either with 2 extra weeks to game plan for them. 2019 against the Niners wasn't not being prepared, it was just not having the talent to stop them or score against them.

We focus on the bad, ignore the good a lot of the time and so we see trends that aren't really there.
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:49 am

Cliff wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:02 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:00 pm


Bill Bellicheck's average points per game given up in the playoffs since 2014: 21
Zimmer's: 22
That's because Bill Bellicheck doesn't build teams the same every year. Some teams are more offensive dominant. That's not how Zimmer rolls. For example, in 2017 against the Eagles they lost in a shootout and gave up 41 points. Probably skewed the average a bit.
The Pats are one of the few teams that have been consistently better defensively since 2014 than the Vikings. Their average scoring rank is 4th compared to the Vikings average of 6th.

The Vikings loss against the Eagles skews Zimmer's numbers a lot more than they skew Bill's, btw.

You remove the Eagles game from both and the Pats average 20.6, the Vikings average 19.75.
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by Maelstrom88 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:54 pm

On the whole I think he has been a very good coach and is deserving if an extension. Things change year to year and I always reserve the right to change my mind but as if now I really like the staff he has put together.
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by Cliff » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:54 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:49 am
The Pats are one of the few teams that have been consistently better defensively since 2014 than the Vikings. Their average scoring rank is 4th compared to the Vikings average of 6th.

The Vikings loss against the Eagles skews Zimmer's numbers a lot more than they skew Bill's, btw.

You remove the Eagles game from both and the Pats average 20.6, the Vikings average 19.75.
I wrote this in 2018 after the Eagles NFCC loss. I think it still reflects my issues with Zimmer and more fully explains what I mean about him in the playoffs.
Cliff wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:19 am
I like Zimmer and think it would be a mistake at this point to fire him - at the moment. He did make it farther than any other coach since 2009 (and even then the offensive coach was basically Favre). He has put together a great team and they played well all year. That said, his playoff history is beyond disturbing. I posted some stats about it in the past but here it is again;

(Last 10 years - prior to this season)
  • Bengals 2009 @ home against Jets - Gave up 171 rushing yards and 2 TDs. Allowed 12/15 182 yards 1TD/0INT to Mark Sanchez. 0 sacks, 0 INTs, 0 FFs, lost 24-14 in the Wildcard round.
  • Bengals 2011 @ Houston - Gave up 188 rushing yards and 2TDs. Passing game was ok; 11/20, 159 yards 1TD/0INT to T.J. Yates. 2 sacks, 0 INTS, 0 FFs Lost 31 - 10 in Wildcard round.
  • Bengals 2012 @ Houston - Gave up 158 Rushing yards and 1 rushing TD. Matt Schaub went 29/38 for 262 yards 0TD/1INT. 0 Sacks, 1 INT, 0 FFs
  • Bengals 2013 @ Home against Chargers - gave up 196 rushing yards and 2 rushing TDs. Rivers went 12/16 for 128 yards and 1TD/0INT. 1 sack, 0 INT, 0 FFs
**I didn't include the 2015 game because I feel the circumstances were somewhat extreme. Specifically the weather. However, it was much better.

The playoff game that a team led by him (as head coach or DC) actually did win came by a "miracle" on the last play of a game they should have handily won. The way the Eagles came out after the half and continued to control the game is what a better team would have done to the Saints.

In my opinion Zimmer has a history of his defenses being exposed in the playoffs. That's honestly what I think happened this year too. It seems like Sean Peyton went into the half of that game, was able to crack the defense, and then the Eagles simply copied this week. Maybe that's too simplistic but it sure seems like what happened.

There were also some pretty major injuries. Thielen wasn't himself but the Rhodes injury was a killer. With Griffin playing hurt we weren't getting enough pressure.

My biggest fear about Zimmer is that we end up in a similar situation to what his old team is in with Marvin Lewis. The guy has a winning record and has went to the playoffs 7 out of the 15 years he's been with the team. Including a run where they didn't miss in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, or 2015. However, he has not won a single playoff game. He's done well enough on a regular basis and is well liked enough to keep his job but I think it's obvious at this point the Bengals aren't going to the super bowl with him.
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:51 am

Cliff wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:54 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:49 am
The Pats are one of the few teams that have been consistently better defensively since 2014 than the Vikings. Their average scoring rank is 4th compared to the Vikings average of 6th.

The Vikings loss against the Eagles skews Zimmer's numbers a lot more than they skew Bill's, btw.

You remove the Eagles game from both and the Pats average 20.6, the Vikings average 19.75.
I wrote this in 2018 after the Eagles NFCC loss. I think it still reflects my issues with Zimmer and more fully explains what I mean about him in the playoffs.
Cliff wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:19 am
I like Zimmer and think it would be a mistake at this point to fire him - at the moment. He did make it farther than any other coach since 2009 (and even then the offensive coach was basically Favre). He has put together a great team and they played well all year. That said, his playoff history is beyond disturbing. I posted some stats about it in the past but here it is again;

(Last 10 years - prior to this season)
  • Bengals 2009 @ home against Jets - Gave up 171 rushing yards and 2 TDs. Allowed 12/15 182 yards 1TD/0INT to Mark Sanchez. 0 sacks, 0 INTs, 0 FFs, lost 24-14 in the Wildcard round.
  • Bengals 2011 @ Houston - Gave up 188 rushing yards and 2TDs. Passing game was ok; 11/20, 159 yards 1TD/0INT to T.J. Yates. 2 sacks, 0 INTS, 0 FFs Lost 31 - 10 in Wildcard round.
  • Bengals 2012 @ Houston - Gave up 158 Rushing yards and 1 rushing TD. Matt Schaub went 29/38 for 262 yards 0TD/1INT. 0 Sacks, 1 INT, 0 FFs
  • Bengals 2013 @ Home against Chargers - gave up 196 rushing yards and 2 rushing TDs. Rivers went 12/16 for 128 yards and 1TD/0INT. 1 sack, 0 INT, 0 FFs
**I didn't include the 2015 game because I feel the circumstances were somewhat extreme. Specifically the weather. However, it was much better.

The playoff game that a team led by him (as head coach or DC) actually did win came by a "miracle" on the last play of a game they should have handily won. The way the Eagles came out after the half and continued to control the game is what a better team would have done to the Saints.

In my opinion Zimmer has a history of his defenses being exposed in the playoffs. That's honestly what I think happened this year too. It seems like Sean Peyton went into the half of that game, was able to crack the defense, and then the Eagles simply copied this week. Maybe that's too simplistic but it sure seems like what happened.

There were also some pretty major injuries. Thielen wasn't himself but the Rhodes injury was a killer. With Griffin playing hurt we weren't getting enough pressure.

My biggest fear about Zimmer is that we end up in a similar situation to what his old team is in with Marvin Lewis. The guy has a winning record and has went to the playoffs 7 out of the 15 years he's been with the team. Including a run where they didn't miss in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, or 2015. However, he has not won a single playoff game. He's done well enough on a regular basis and is well liked enough to keep his job but I think it's obvious at this point the Bengals aren't going to the super bowl with him.
At first blush, it looks like his defenses are great against the pass, terrible against the run in the playoffs. However, I don't think looking at total yards tells the whole story. Teams run more with the lead when the opposing team's offense struggles, and conversely, they pass less. Looking at every one of those playoff games, the offense, something Zimmer had no control of in those Bengals' losses, sucked. The Bengals QB threw 7 Ints in those 4 games, putting his defenses in bad spots all game long. They went three and out repeatedly, keeping the defense on the field all game long.

There are elite defenses who could have picked up the offense, but even when the Bucs, Bears, Ravens and 2015 Broncos defenses won them Super Bowls, the offense wasn't as bad as those Bengals offenses. 14 points was the most they scored in any of those games. Funny enough, 10 points is the most scored in the two playoff games Zimmer is slammed for the most here in MN.

I do think I agree with you about him being the next Marvin Lewis though. Both will go through/did go through their HC careers without the QB requisite of winning it all. They coached good, sometimes great teams that were a QB away from winning it all, and I don't see that changing anytime soon with Zimmer. That would be true with any HC we brought in though.
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by Mothman » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:04 pm

Cliff wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:23 pm
If head coaches are measured in win percentage Zimmer is the 11th best coach in the league - 10th if you discount Matt LaFleur only having one season.

I personally don't think Zimmer can get a team to the super bowl as it's head coach. Honestly, given his defenses performances in playoff games I'm not sure he can get there as a defensive coordinator. I don't think the better offenses in the league - especially those with more level-headed quarterbacks - are thrown off balance all that much by the adjustments and pre-snap looks they give. Just my two cents, I hope I'm wrong.

Anyway, I can't blame them for resigning an arguably top 10 head coach. They certainly aren't around every corner and there's a good chance they would take a step back with someone else. As an owner are you really willing to play the "next big head coach" scratch off game? You might get the next great head coach or your team might suck for 3 seasons and you're hiring another new headcoach.

Why rock the boat if you're making good returns and the fans generally like your coach? He's had some exciting seasons too.
I think "Why rock the boat if you're making good returns?" is exactly the message this extension sends to the fans. The Vikes are telling us they're fine with the results of the past 6 seasons and will be fine with more of the same. It's a complacent choice, a "good enough is good enough" decision. The Vikes will probably keep winning 8-11 games a season, fans will continue to tout Zimmer's defensive prowess and rationalize his shortcomings away and 3 or 4 years from now, the Vikings will still be without a Super Bowl.
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by RandyMoss84 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:10 pm

The one issue I have is that fans say “we would not find someone better than Zimmer” how would they know that? :roll:
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Re: Vikings Extend Mike Zimmer

Post by Mothman » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:00 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:10 pm
The one issue I have is that fans say “we would not find someone better than Zimmer” how would they know that? :roll:
It's just one of many ways in which people rationalize keeping him as head coach.
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