Vikings name change?

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Re: Vikings name change?

Post by Cliff » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:24 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:11 pm
Sure there are.

There were tons of protests in Cleveland over the Indians. Thus far, they've changed their logo from the cartoon Indian to the rather plain "C," and they got rid of Chief Nockahoma in the stands.

Just you wait ... others will be in line, especially if Washington makes the switch. Teams like the Atlanta Braves, Florida State Seminoles, Kansas City Chiefs, Chicago Blackhawks and others will come under fire. I mean, how big a leap is it from criticizing the Redskins to Florida State making money off of the forced relocation of thousands of Native Americans, including the Seminoles, via the Trail of Tears?

It's hard to know whether the founders of these teams actually meant any racism. Some of these teams were born during a time in America when racism was far worse than it is today, so I suppose it's possible. But it seems more "tough image" to me. My "fluffy puppies" comment was obviously meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but very few teams adopt nicknames that don't evoke an image of toughness or something to fear. Obviously there are exceptions (like the Packers ... who's afraid of a person who works in a packing plant?), the Jazz and the Lakers, but the majority of teams adopt "tough" nicknames. Of which "Vikings" might just be the toughest.

I don't know what the right answer is. There probably isn't one that will make everybody happy.
I was thinking NFL specifically. Yes, there are other teams with potentially offensive names.

I can think of an immediately easy solution - stop naming teams based on ethnicity or ethnic/cultural traditions. Specifically for those the country has enslaved and/or committed genocide against. How difficult could that possibly be to get over for people? There are hundreds or thousands of cool names to choose from animals to weather elements and teams change all the time when they move.
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Re: Vikings name change?

Post by YikesVikes » Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:30 pm

This entire post is just ridiculous. Changing the redskins will not result in everything turning into the red team vs. the blue team. If correcting something as wrong as a team name ( named by a clearly racist owner) creates all this unmerited fear, one should conduct some introspection on their values.
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Re: Vikings name change?

Post by S197 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:08 pm

Florida State is actually a good model on how to do things right. They've engaged the Seminole tribe to tweak a lot of the depictions over the years to the point where the Seminoles are rather supportive of the school using the name.

I don't now how much Chiefs would be an issue. It's the equivalent of Kings to me, which is a name used in many sports.

The others are probably a gray area and I'm sure there will be discussions. The Redskins has always been a debate, it's not as if this sprung up out of nowhere. It's just now that the corporate money is going away it's suddenly "re-evaluation" time.
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Re: Vikings name change?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:32 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:30 pm
This entire post is just ridiculous. Changing the redskins will not result in everything turning into the red team vs. the blue team. If correcting something as wrong as a team name ( named by a clearly racist owner) creates all this unmerited fear, one should conduct some introspection on their values.
You're talking about what SHOULD be, and I agree with you wholeheartedly.

But the alternate reality of the Cancel Culture is far different.

To put it in preschool terms, "If you give a mouse a cookie, he'll want a glass of milk." Once the Cancel Culture is successful in getting the name "Redskins" cancelled (and it should be cancelled), my money is on them going after other names.

That being said, the Vikings are probably safe. I'd say why I think that, but I'd probably get banned.
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Re: Vikings name change?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:41 pm

S197 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:08 pm
Florida State is actually a good model on how to do things right. They've engaged the Seminole tribe to tweak a lot of the depictions over the years to the point where the Seminoles are rather supportive of the school using the name.

I don't now how much Chiefs would be an issue. It's the equivalent of Kings to me, which is a name used in many sports.

The others are probably a gray area and I'm sure there will be discussions. The Redskins has always been a debate, it's not as if this sprung up out of nowhere. It's just now that the corporate money is going away it's suddenly "re-evaluation" time.
Great point about the corporate money. It's really not Daniel Snyder caving to public pressure. It's FedEx. Daniel Snyder will only cave to one thing ... FedEx's money.

Here's my take on the Seminole thing. The Cancel Culture doesn't really care what actual Seminoles think.
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Re: Vikings name change?

Post by YikesVikes » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:09 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:32 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:30 pm
This entire post is just ridiculous. Changing the redskins will not result in everything turning into the red team vs. the blue team. If correcting something as wrong as a team name ( named by a clearly racist owner) creates all this unmerited fear, one should conduct some introspection on their values.
You're talking about what SHOULD be, and I agree with you wholeheartedly.

But the alternate reality of the Cancel Culture is far different.

To put it in preschool terms, "If you give a mouse a cookie, he'll want a glass of milk." Once the Cancel Culture is successful in getting the name "Redskins" cancelled (and it should be cancelled), my money is on them going after other names.

That being said, the Vikings are probably safe. I'd say why I think that, but I'd probably get banned.
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Re: Vikings name change?

Post by YikesVikes » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:12 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:41 pm
S197 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:08 pm
Florida State is actually a good model on how to do things right. They've engaged the Seminole tribe to tweak a lot of the depictions over the years to the point where the Seminoles are rather supportive of the school using the name.

I don't now how much Chiefs would be an issue. It's the equivalent of Kings to me, which is a name used in many sports.

The others are probably a gray area and I'm sure there will be discussions. The Redskins has always been a debate, it's not as if this sprung up out of nowhere. It's just now that the corporate money is going away it's suddenly "re-evaluation" time.
Great point about the corporate money. It's really not Daniel Snyder caving to public pressure. It's FedEx. Daniel Snyder will only cave to one thing ... FedEx's money.

Here's my take on the Seminole thing. The Cancel Culture doesn't really care what actual Seminoles think.
How do you know? Considering that the lobbying group that started the Redskin change was comprised of Native Americans, I think their opinions are heavily weighed.
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Re: Vikings name change?

Post by S197 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:26 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:12 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:41 pm

Great point about the corporate money. It's really not Daniel Snyder caving to public pressure. It's FedEx. Daniel Snyder will only cave to one thing ... FedEx's money.

Here's my take on the Seminole thing. The Cancel Culture doesn't really care what actual Seminoles think.
How do you know? Considering that the lobbying group that started the Redskin change was comprised of Native Americans, I think their opinions are heavily weighed.
I won't speak for Kapp but will respond since I brought it up. I don't think it's coincidence that immediately after sponsors like FedEx pulled money and companies like Nike took all their merch off their website that we suddenly saw an announcement. People have been raising issues with the name for years with no progress.

Now that doesn't mean people didn't have an impact because their response effects change on the corporations. But at the end of the day, it's still the money that talks.
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Re: Vikings name change?

Post by YikesVikes » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:38 pm

S197 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:26 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:12 pm


How do you know? Considering that the lobbying group that started the Redskin change was comprised of Native Americans, I think their opinions are heavily weighed.
I won't speak for Kapp but will respond since I brought it up. I don't think it's coincidence that immediately after sponsors like FedEx pulled money and companies like Nike took all their merch off their website that we suddenly saw an announcement. People have been raising issues with the name for years with no progress.

Now that doesn't mean people didn't have an impact because their response effects change on the corporations. But at the end of the day, it's still the money that talks.
Agreed but that money came from... a native American investment firm. They gathered enough money and power to create change. They put pressure on Nike and Fedex. Lets also not ignore the current climate in the nation. The protests and fighting that POC and WHITES are doing in the streets also were not present during previous pushes.

https://www.adweek.com/brand-marketing/ ... -redskins/
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Re: Vikings name change?

Post by Cliff » Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:26 am

S197 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:26 pm
I won't speak for Kapp but will respond since I brought it up. I don't think it's coincidence that immediately after sponsors like FedEx pulled money and companies like Nike took all their merch off their website that we suddenly saw an announcement. People have been raising issues with the name for years with no progress.

Now that doesn't mean people didn't have an impact because their response effects change on the corporations. But at the end of the day, it's still the money that talks.
Which is exactly how our society is designed and is more or less what capitalism intends. Far above a football team the Washington Redskins are a business and so they'll act in the best interest of a profit. People "vote with their dollars" so to speak. Basically - if you won't stop buying my product you must not care about the issue very much. Enough people care and so enough money is at stake. Someone somewhere did a market analysis and determined they'd make or save more money by doing this now.

Enough people applying pressure is how nearly everything of significance gets done in this country.
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Re: Vikings name change?

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:32 am

Cliff wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:09 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:34 am
Don't get me wrong, it is fine that they are changing the name, and of all the Native American sports teams, it is the most offensive. However changing it isn't actually going to do anything. In fact, the name was a constant reminder of how Native Americans were treated, so that we never repeat the same mistake. A less offensive reminder would probably be better, but we tend to ignore those type reminders.
It does change something. The reminder that it gives Native Americans is almost certainly not "we can't let this happen again!". For just about everyone else, it amounts to the first reason you gave for the name:
The names of teams are their names because they are perceived as cool or tough.
Any rationalization for the name in hindsight just comes off as disingenuous.

I'm sure the intention wasn't to insult Native Americans everywhere but now that we know it does shouldn't it stop?
I didn't argue it shouldn't stop. Just that doing so was not really going to change anything and removes yet another reminder of what happened. That isn't necessarily a reason to keep it, but it is a side affect. Maybe not that much, since like you said, most don't think of it that way, but it does white wash our history just a little.
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Re: Vikings name change?

Post by Cliff » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:45 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:32 am
I didn't argue it shouldn't stop. Just that doing so was not really going to change anything and removes yet another reminder of what happened. That isn't necessarily a reason to keep it, but it is a side affect. Maybe not that much, since like you said, most don't think of it that way, but it does white wash our history just a little.
The only reminder it serves is that Native American's have no voice in this country to the point where even something many of them see as a slur is the name of a well known sports team.

The way Native American's are portrayed as a "Redskin" already *is* white washing. The removal of it is a step away from the normal Native American stereotypes many of us hold.

The white washing of our history is already in place and renaming a football team does not make it worse. Check out "Lies My Teacher Told Me" if you're interested in just how White Washed our history already is.
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Re: Vikings name change?

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:03 pm

Cliff wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:45 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:32 am
I didn't argue it shouldn't stop. Just that doing so was not really going to change anything and removes yet another reminder of what happened. That isn't necessarily a reason to keep it, but it is a side affect. Maybe not that much, since like you said, most don't think of it that way, but it does white wash our history just a little.
The only reminder it serves is that Native American's have no voice in this country to the point where even something many of them see as a slur is the name of a well known sports team.

The way Native American's are portrayed as a "Redskin" already *is* white washing. The removal of it is a step away from the normal Native American stereotypes many of us hold.

The white washing of our history is already in place and renaming a football team does not make it worse. Check out "Lies My Teacher Told Me" if you're interested in just how White Washed our history already is.
Do you think being offended by something gives you the right to force someone to change whatever it was that offended you?

To go back to the original point, if a bunch of Scandinavians got upset about the Vikings name, and started protesting in front of the Stadium every game, do you think the Vikings would change their name? Of course they wouldn't, but would that mean Scandinavians don't have a voice in this country?

Or did you mean all the other issues that actually matter to the Native Americans that tell us they don't have a voice?

Does us talking about this prove that the name does force us to remember what happened in the past and maybe even consider the present day issues among the Native American people? :shock:
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Re: Vikings name change?

Post by Cliff » Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:01 pm

We've gone way off topic and this topic is begging for political debate as it is. I'm locking this but we can continue in PM.
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