Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
VikingsVictorious
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1634
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 399

Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:13 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:36 pm
RandyMoss84 wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:21 pm


So Adrian was not worth the money?
Well ... no, he wasn't.

Let's not forget that Adrian Peterson played 12 games or fewer in three of the 6 seasons he played under the 7-year, $100 million deal he signed in 2011. That included one game played in 2014 and two games in 2016. He also rushed for fewer than 1,000 yards in three of those six seasons. Obviously he was otherworldly in 2012 and deserved every dime (and more) of his contract's $14.5 million AAV, and he played well enough in 2015 to justify such a large payday. But not in the other four seasons.

So no ... on balance, over the life of the contract, I'd say he wasn't worth the overall money. And understand, this is coming from a serious AP fan. But we're not talking about legacy here. We're talking about contract value.

Also, consider this. During AP's first four years, he rushed for nearly 6,000 yards. He truly earned a monster deal. Dalvin Cook, in 3 seasons, has 2,104 yards. In other words, Cook has proven far less, yet he's asking for top dollar. Good for him if he gets it.
No way is Cook worth top RB money. His body of work doesn't justify it. A reasonable $10 million a year would be fair for all. Git R Dun.
1 x

User avatar
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8148
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 796

Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:26 am

S197 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:50 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:36 pm

Well ... no, he wasn't.

Let's not forget that Adrian Peterson played 12 games or fewer in three of the 6 seasons he played under the 7-year, $100 million deal he signed in 2011. That included one game played in 2014 and two games in 2016. He also rushed for fewer than 1,000 yards in three of those six seasons. Obviously he was otherworldly in 2012 and deserved every dime (and more) of his contract's $14.5 million AAV, and he played well enough in 2015 to justify such a large payday. But not in the other four seasons.

So no ... on balance, over the life of the contract, I'd say he wasn't worth the overall money. And understand, this is coming from a serious AP fan. But we're not talking about legacy here. We're talking about contract value.

Also, consider this. During AP's first four years, he rushed for nearly 6,000 yards. He truly earned a monster deal. Dalvin Cook, in 3 seasons, has 2,104 yards. In other words, Cook has proven far less, yet he's asking for top dollar. Good for him if he gets it.
I think there are other considerations besides stats as to whether you earned your contract. Teams game planned to stop AD. They would throw 8 or 9 guys in the box. He was one of if not the most hit RBs behind the LOS. The main problem was despite how good AD was, the offense had great difficulty capitalizing on defenses keying in on him. In several of those years we had no one else to really keep “defenses honest” and so his production wasn’t stellar.
No argument from me that he was a great player.

But (and this isn't exactly news) ... I don't believe in paying running backs that kind of money. It doesn't take much ... like a year on the commissioner's exempt list, or a tweaked whatever that kept him out for virtually all of 2016 ... to make the contract (not the player) a bad deal.
0 x
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.

User avatar
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 12278
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii
x 432

Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by S197 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:33 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:26 am
S197 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:50 pm


I think there are other considerations besides stats as to whether you earned your contract. Teams game planned to stop AD. They would throw 8 or 9 guys in the box. He was one of if not the most hit RBs behind the LOS. The main problem was despite how good AD was, the offense had great difficulty capitalizing on defenses keying in on him. In several of those years we had no one else to really keep “defenses honest” and so his production wasn’t stellar.
No argument from me that he was a great player.

But (and this isn't exactly news) ... I don't believe in paying running backs that kind of money. It doesn't take much ... like a year on the commissioner's exempt list, or a tweaked whatever that kept him out for virtually all of 2016 ... to make the contract (not the player) a bad deal.
I agree but mainly due to the position having one of the lower replacement costs.

I don't place as much emphasis on injuries as we've had our fair share of them at QB as well. Just as his ACL tear was bad luck, so is dislocating your knee in practice, etc. The whole switch incident is more on the player than the position.
0 x

User avatar
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8148
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 796

Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:11 pm

S197 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:33 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:26 am

No argument from me that he was a great player.

But (and this isn't exactly news) ... I don't believe in paying running backs that kind of money. It doesn't take much ... like a year on the commissioner's exempt list, or a tweaked whatever that kept him out for virtually all of 2016 ... to make the contract (not the player) a bad deal.
I agree but mainly due to the position having one of the lower replacement costs.

I don't place as much emphasis on injuries as we've had our fair share of them at QB as well. Just as his ACL tear was bad luck, so is dislocating your knee in practice, etc. The whole switch incident is more on the player than the position.
Not sure I agree. Running backs take a beating. Dalvin Cook is taking hits from multiple players about 20 times a game. The average career length of a running back, according to Statistica.com, is 2.57 years. Meanwhile, the only position with a longer life expectancy than quarterback is kicker.

The injury to Bridgewater was a freak accident. The ACL tear to Cook wasn't. Even though it was non-contact, with as many hits as a running back takes, the risk was very high. Some statistics put it as high as 10% of all running backs suffer an ACL injury, and those aren't likely the backups getting 5 carries a game.

Totally agree on the replacement cost. Running back is just about the easiest to replace ... if not with superstars, at least with competent players.
0 x
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.

User avatar
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 12278
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii
x 432

Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by S197 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:26 pm

That's a fair point Kapp.
0 x

StumpHunter
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2024
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 298

Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:35 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:26 am
S197 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:50 pm


I think there are other considerations besides stats as to whether you earned your contract. Teams game planned to stop AD. They would throw 8 or 9 guys in the box. He was one of if not the most hit RBs behind the LOS. The main problem was despite how good AD was, the offense had great difficulty capitalizing on defenses keying in on him. In several of those years we had no one else to really keep “defenses honest” and so his production wasn’t stellar.
No argument from me that he was a great player.

But (and this isn't exactly news) ... I don't believe in paying running backs that kind of money. It doesn't take much ... like a year on the commissioner's exempt list, or a tweaked whatever that kept him out for virtually all of 2016 ... to make the contract (not the player) a bad deal.
I think AP is a prime example of why you should never put blanket statements like "I would never pay a RB top dollar" out there. For the most part, paying a RB AP money is not a good move, but paying AP that kind of money was absolutely the right move, regardless of the 2 seasons he was hurt/out. The Vikings would have been the Cleveland browns for the first half of the 2010's without AP. He was the ONLY reason the Vikings made the playoffs in 2008 and 2012 and was one of the biggest reasons they made it in 2015. It wasn't his fault the Vikings refused to put a viable QB on the field with him every year but 2009 and 2015 and his salary was not the reason those teams didn't have more success than they did. It wasn't his salary in 2014 and 2016 that kept those teams from being a contender with him out, it was him being out that did. The impact of him being missing those seasons is actually an argument for the contract extensions, not one against it.

Since I have been a serious Vikings fan, there have only been 3 players who made the kind of individual impact that should have gotten them any contract within reason they demanded: Moss, Favre and AP. Allen, Hunter and Randle are close on the defensive side and I could see the argument made for them.
1 x

User avatar
VikingsVictorious
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1634
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 399

Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by VikingsVictorious » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:41 pm

:lol: :lol:
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:35 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:26 am

No argument from me that he was a great player.

But (and this isn't exactly news) ... I don't believe in paying running backs that kind of money. It doesn't take much ... like a year on the commissioner's exempt list, or a tweaked whatever that kept him out for virtually all of 2016 ... to make the contract (not the player) a bad deal.
I think AP is a prime example of why you should never put blanket statements like "I would never pay a RB top dollar" out there. For the most part, paying a RB AP money is not a good move, but paying AP that kind of money was absolutely the right move, regardless of the 2 seasons he was hurt/out. The Vikings would have been the Cleveland browns for the first half of the 2010's without AP. He was the ONLY reason the Vikings made the playoffs in 2008 and 2012 and was one of the biggest reasons they made it in 2015. It wasn't his fault the Vikings refused to put a viable QB on the field with him every year but 2009 and 2015 and his salary was not the reason those teams didn't have more success than they did. It wasn't his salary in 2014 and 2016 that kept those teams from being a contender with him out, it was him being out that did. The impact of him being missing those seasons is actually an argument for the contract extensions, not one against it.

Since I have been a serious Vikings fan, there have only been 3 players who made the kind of individual impact that should have gotten them any contract within reason they demanded: Moss, Favre and AP. Allen, Hunter and Randle are close on the defensive side and I could see the argument made for them.
Great post and I agree with almost all of it. However, Favre had one great season then sucked like a hoover. I'll never be a fan because he is the enemy. The greatest Packer of them all. :lol: :lol:
Half joking half serious. :evil:
0 x

User avatar
RandyMoss84
Pro Bowl Elite Player
Posts: 955
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:12 pm
x 315

Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by RandyMoss84 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:09 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:41 pm
:lol: :lol:
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:35 pm


I think AP is a prime example of why you should never put blanket statements like "I would never pay a RB top dollar" out there. For the most part, paying a RB AP money is not a good move, but paying AP that kind of money was absolutely the right move, regardless of the 2 seasons he was hurt/out. The Vikings would have been the Cleveland browns for the first half of the 2010's without AP. He was the ONLY reason the Vikings made the playoffs in 2008 and 2012 and was one of the biggest reasons they made it in 2015. It wasn't his fault the Vikings refused to put a viable QB on the field with him every year but 2009 and 2015 and his salary was not the reason those teams didn't have more success than they did. It wasn't his salary in 2014 and 2016 that kept those teams from being a contender with him out, it was him being out that did. The impact of him being missing those seasons is actually an argument for the contract extensions, not one against it.

Since I have been a serious Vikings fan, there have only been 3 players who made the kind of individual impact that should have gotten them any contract within reason they demanded: Moss, Favre and AP. Allen, Hunter and Randle are close on the defensive side and I could see the argument made for them.
Great post and I agree with almost all of it. However, Favre had one great season then sucked like a hoover. I'll never be a fan because he is the enemy. The greatest Packer of them all. :lol: :lol:
Half joking half serious. :evil:
If Favre won a Superbowl for Vikings, would you turn into a fan?
0 x

User avatar
VikingsVictorious
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1634
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 399

Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:49 am

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:09 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:41 pm
:lol: :lol:
Great post and I agree with almost all of it. However, Favre had one great season then sucked like a hoover. I'll never be a fan because he is the enemy. The greatest Packer of them all. :lol: :lol:
Half joking half serious. :evil:
If Favre won a Superbowl for Vikings, would you turn into a fan?
Nope. First of all it's not possible for a single player to win a superbowl. It takes 22 starters, specialists and all kind of reserve players. Second he's the enemy. If we won a title with him as the leader it would require an asterisk that we sold our soul to get it. :shock:
Half joking half serious. :lol:
0 x

User avatar
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8148
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 796

Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:51 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:35 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:26 am

No argument from me that he was a great player.

But (and this isn't exactly news) ... I don't believe in paying running backs that kind of money. It doesn't take much ... like a year on the commissioner's exempt list, or a tweaked whatever that kept him out for virtually all of 2016 ... to make the contract (not the player) a bad deal.
I think AP is a prime example of why you should never put blanket statements like "I would never pay a RB top dollar" out there. For the most part, paying a RB AP money is not a good move, but paying AP that kind of money was absolutely the right move, regardless of the 2 seasons he was hurt/out. The Vikings would have been the Cleveland browns for the first half of the 2010's without AP. He was the ONLY reason the Vikings made the playoffs in 2008 and 2012 and was one of the biggest reasons they made it in 2015. It wasn't his fault the Vikings refused to put a viable QB on the field with him every year but 2009 and 2015 and his salary was not the reason those teams didn't have more success than they did. It wasn't his salary in 2014 and 2016 that kept those teams from being a contender with him out, it was him being out that did. The impact of him being missing those seasons is actually an argument for the contract extensions, not one against it.

Since I have been a serious Vikings fan, there have only been 3 players who made the kind of individual impact that should have gotten them any contract within reason they demanded: Moss, Favre and AP. Allen, Hunter and Randle are close on the defensive side and I could see the argument made for them.
Dude, don't look now, but other than 2012, the Vikings WERE the Browns for the first half of the 2010s. We lost 48 games over the first 5 seasons of that decade compared to Cleveland's 55. And I've already acknowledged that Peterson earned his money in 2012 and 2015. But 2011? 2013? 2014? 2016? You're honestly going to tell me he was worth the $58 million he was paid for those seasons? Good luck with that argument.

In my opinion, the impact of Peterson missing 2014 and 2016 only furthers MY argument. If your team is so reliant on one player, a running back no less, that you can't win without him, then you've got more problems than one player. I've said it at least a hundred times ... my entire argument is not really about Peterson, Cook or any particular player. It's about salary allocation and the relative value of the RB position. When you pay a running back $14.5 million, it leaves other, more critical positions short on space under the cap. Next season, when the salary cap may be reduced by as much as $40 million, those dollars will be tighter than ever. If we're paying Dalvin Cook (especially an injury-prone Dalvin Cook) $10 million or more for 1,650 yards of production when we could get 1,400 out of Alexander Mattision for a tenth of the cost, then all we're really paying for is the name.

Which is exactly what we did with Adrian Peterson in 2011.
0 x
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.

User avatar
PacificNorseWest
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2910
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:10 am
Location: Seattle, Wa
x 138

Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by PacificNorseWest » Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:13 pm

I'm somewhat relieved now that the talks broke off, but mostly that Cook is out there and not holding out. That's kinda how you draw it up and I wouldn't be at all surprised that Cook is gone after next season, even with a great season. It's just not the model teams work with anymore and that model has mostly been successful. Actually, overwhelmingly so...

Hopefully, we just enjoy his skillset this season (ending with a SB?) and move on. I'd like to see him around longer, but you can't just pay top money based on a potential ceiling and two, because he demands it, irrespective of overall production and injury history.
0 x

StumpHunter
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2024
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 298

Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by StumpHunter » Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:49 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:51 pm
Dude, don't look now, but other than 2012, the Vikings WERE the Browns for the first half of the 2010s. We lost 48 games over the first 5 seasons of that decade compared to Cleveland's 55. And I've already acknowledged that Peterson earned his money in 2012 and 2015. But 2011? 2013? 2014? 2016? You're honestly going to tell me he was worth the $58 million he was paid for those seasons? Good luck with that argument.
Yes, he was worth making the playoffs 2 of 5 years instead of 0 of 5 years like the Browns. He was worth 58 million for having a reason to watch this team. Without a viable QB for most of those years and pretty lousy coaching, he was it.

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:51 pm
In my opinion, the impact of Peterson missing 2014 and 2016 only furthers MY argument. If your team is so reliant on one player, a running back no less, that you can't win without him, then you've got more problems than one player.
His contract had nothing to do with them being so reliant on him. His being such a huge impact player did.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:51 pm
I've said it at least a hundred times ... my entire argument is not really about Peterson, Cook or any particular player. It's about salary allocation and the relative value of the RB position. When you pay a running back $14.5 million, it leaves other, more critical positions short on space under the cap. Next season, when the salary cap may be reduced by as much as $40 million, those dollars will be tighter than ever. If we're paying Dalvin Cook (especially an injury-prone Dalvin Cook) $10 million or more for 1,650 yards of production when we could get 1,400 out of Alexander Mattision for a tenth of the cost, then all we're really paying for is the name.

Which is exactly what we did with Adrian Peterson in 2011.
And then in 2012 he won the MVP and carried Christian Ponder to the playoffs.

It is fine to have that opinion that RBs aren't worth spending a lot of cap on, because for the most part it is true. You are just being a little unreasonable with your take that NO RB is worth spending cap on. Very few RBs are, but they do exist.
0 x

User avatar
VikingsVictorious
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1634
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 399

Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:21 am

PacificNorseWest wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:13 pm
I'm somewhat relieved now that the talks broke off, but mostly that Cook is out there and not holding out. That's kinda how you draw it up and I wouldn't be at all surprised that Cook is gone after next season, even with a great season. It's just not the model teams work with anymore and that model has mostly been successful. Actually, overwhelmingly so...

Hopefully, we just enjoy his skillset this season (ending with a SB?) and move on. I'd like to see him around longer, but you can't just pay top money based on a potential ceiling and two, because he demands it, irrespective of overall production and injury history.
Wish we could just agree on $10 million and sign him now. If he has a season like last years we're looking at $14 million a year moving forward.
0 x

User avatar
RandyMoss84
Pro Bowl Elite Player
Posts: 955
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:12 pm
x 315

Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by RandyMoss84 » Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:49 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:21 am
PacificNorseWest wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:13 pm
I'm somewhat relieved now that the talks broke off, but mostly that Cook is out there and not holding out. That's kinda how you draw it up and I wouldn't be at all surprised that Cook is gone after next season, even with a great season. It's just not the model teams work with anymore and that model has mostly been successful. Actually, overwhelmingly so...

Hopefully, we just enjoy his skillset this season (ending with a SB?) and move on. I'd like to see him around longer, but you can't just pay top money based on a potential ceiling and two, because he demands it, irrespective of overall production and injury history.
Wish we could just agree on $10 million and sign him now. If he has a season like last years we're looking at $14 million a year moving forward.
With what cap space?
0 x

User avatar
VikingsVictorious
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1634
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 399

Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:12 am

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:49 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:21 am

Wish we could just agree on $10 million and sign him now. If he has a season like last years we're looking at $14 million a year moving forward.
With what cap space?
His extension would start with Next year.
When the contract kicks in the Money we're currently paying Reiff with is one way. There's a million ways to do it. Exaggeration.
0 x