Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

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VikingLord
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by VikingLord » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:10 pm

S197 wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:19 am
The stats without watching the game erroneously indicate the Vikings weren’t running much. In actuality they were running, it’s just the offense as a whole wasn’t doing much. And credit to SF for some of that, there’s no denying they are an elite defense. But plays were there, they were just missed. Like I said, go look at Rosenfels breaking down tape on Twitter. That deep cross was open multiple times and Cousins flat out missed it. That’s not me armchairing, that’s a former NFL QB publicly saying you can’t miss plays like that in the playoffs. And he’s absolutely right.
I watched it and I agree with you. Cousins missed some stuff.

The thing that bothers me about that, though, is what the heck are the Vikings doing when the offense comes off after a series and they're looking at the screen shots of that series? Don't the coaches see that? Wouldn't Cousins see that too? As good as the 49ers defense was that game, they seemed to have figured something out about the Vikings offense that the Vikings overall couldn't overcome no matter how they adjusted (I assume they did adjust). Ditto for the 2nd game against the Packers last year too. Whatever the Packers did in that game likewise seemed like something the offense couldn't adjust to.

Does all of that fall on Cousins?

I think here the issue comes down to Cousins ability to improvise and extend plays. He's not good at that, certainly not at a level of a Mahomes, Favre, or a Rodgers. Whatever the 49ers and Packers figured out, the Vikings offensively weren't able to overcome in terms of on-field adjustments. They shut everything the Vikings tried to do down. In games like that, someone has to step up and be a superhero, and at least in those games Cousins wasn't able to. Neither was Cook, and neither, for that matter, was the defense as both the Packers and 49ers pretty much ran all over them.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by S197 » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:51 pm

I think Cousins was initially signed because they felt he was the missing piece to get over the hurdle and win a championship. If Keenum can get the team that far, a guy like Cousins can put you over the top.

I was on board with the signing, I thought it was risky but it was worth going "all in" at a time when the window looked open. Windows are very small in the NFL, look at how many different teams have gone to the Super Bowl over the last 10 years, especially on the NFC side. So I get it. But that also means if you miss your shot, you're going to be in cap hell for a while so the risks are high.

But Rick took a chance and QBs of Cousins caliber so rarely come on the market. So to me, that first signing made sense. My problem is with the extension. I would have liked to see him play out this year to see if he's worth an extension or sign a more team friendly deal. Not the double dip, high guarantee deal he signed.

As to why they gave him the extension? It could be they feel up against a wall and missing the playoffs this year could mean jobs are lost. Cousins in that respect is a better bet than a rookie. Let's not forget that Zimmer has finished the last 3 years with absolutely awful performances. Flat out dominated and outcoached in all 3 games. That's a really bad last reminder for an owner. Another year of that and he could be gone.

To me, it was more about survival than faith.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:06 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:58 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:40 am
I think the same goes for Cousins. He wasn't extended to win it all, he was extended because he is a solid QB who stays healthy. There is a good chance in the immediate future he is a better option than the alternative, and Rick is willing to sacrifice any hope of winning it all for the stability that Cousins brings. Zimmer too probably fears another season with his starting QB going through rookie growth pains or losing his QB to injury.

Cook is different as he doesn't necessarily bring that stability with his injury history. He makes them better if he is healthy, but there is a good chance he won't be. Extending him is a risk, and Rick and Zimmer are adverse to taking risks.
Why sign Cousins in the first place when Case Keenum would have more than sufficed? You claim that Spielman over-valued average over the years. I can accept that premise, but if you just keep drawing the line along those dots you laid out, why didn't he continue that trend and just keep Keenum? That would have given him more money to then pay someone like Cook and make sure the run game was jacked up, both at RB and along the OL.

I get where S197 and you are coming from, but every time I try to agree with you guys I keep running smack dab into this brick wall of what the Vikings are actually *doing* in terms of team building and allocation of resources among the various positions and position groups.
Keenum was a journeyman backup. They didn't keep him because he wasn't a very good QB and they hoped Cousins was better. Spending a lot at the QB position when you prioritize the run is not new. Seattle is doing it, Baltimore will do it, SF is doing it. On top of all that, the QB the Vikings extended NEEDS a running attack to have any sort of success. The extension actually proves the Vikings want to run the football, more than disproves it.

Outside of that, they traded away their best weapon in the passing attack last year, didn't upgrade the line that was better at run blocking than pass blocking, and just in 2018 fired an OC who didn't run enough. This looks like a team that wants to run the football.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by Thaumaturgist » Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:01 pm

Honestly, I think this looks like a team who doesn't really know what their identity is, or should be...
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by RandyMoss84 » Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:39 pm

Thaumaturgist wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:01 pm
Honestly, I think this looks like a team who doesn't really know what their identity is, or should be...
They do not know their identity since Zimmer has been here
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by VikingLord » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:58 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:06 pm
Keenum was a journeyman backup. They didn't keep him because he wasn't a very good QB and they hoped Cousins was better.
Don't you think you're stretching it a bit with that statement?

IIRC, Keenum was one of the best QBs in the league in 2017. He hadn't stood out much prior to that year, but that year he was good and there was a lot of speculation the Vikings might keep him around.
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:06 pm
Spending a lot at the QB position when you prioritize the run is not new. Seattle is doing it, Baltimore will do it, SF is doing it. On top of all that, the QB the Vikings extended NEEDS a running attack to have any sort of success. The extension actually proves the Vikings want to run the football, more than disproves it.
But, Wilson in Seattle is objectively one of the best QBs in the NFL.

Baltimore's running stats are grossly inflated by the QB because he himself runs. Didn't Jackson have the most rushing yards for the Ravens last year? It's another stretch to claim the Ravens are focused on running when it's the QB doing most of the rushing damage. Further, how long do you think that will last? The league has seen many guys like Jackson over the years and invariably defensive coordinators figure out how to stop the guy if he doesn't stop himself first by getting injured because he forgets he's a QB and keeps taking big hits.

SF I would claim hoped (and probably still hopes) they get more out of Jimmy G than they've gotten.

Teams that spend a lot on their passing games generally want their passing games to work. They might value balance between pass and run, but almost all teams will rely on their passing games to make up late deficits.
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:06 pm
Outside of that, they traded away their best weapon in the passing attack last year, didn't upgrade the line that was better at run blocking than pass blocking, and just in 2018 fired an OC who didn't run enough. This looks like a team that wants to run the football.
I'm sure they want to run it - I'm not convinced they are selling out to run it.

I think they want balance and they want an explosive and consistent passing attack. If they have to choose between paying Cook franchise money or fielding said passing attack, they'll choose passing attack.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by RandyMoss84 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:04 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:58 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:06 pm
Keenum was a journeyman backup. They didn't keep him because he wasn't a very good QB and they hoped Cousins was better.
Don't you think you're stretching it a bit with that statement?

IIRC, Keenum was one of the best QBs in the league in 2017. He hadn't stood out much prior to that year, but that year he was good and there was a lot of speculation the Vikings might keep him around.
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:06 pm
Spending a lot at the QB position when you prioritize the run is not new. Seattle is doing it, Baltimore will do it, SF is doing it. On top of all that, the QB the Vikings extended NEEDS a running attack to have any sort of success. The extension actually proves the Vikings want to run the football, more than disproves it.
But, Wilson in Seattle is objectively one of the best QBs in the NFL.

Baltimore's running stats are grossly inflated by the QB because he himself runs. Didn't Jackson have the most rushing yards for the Ravens last year? It's another stretch to claim the Ravens are focused on running when it's the QB doing most of the rushing damage. Further, how long do you think that will last? The league has seen many guys like Jackson over the years and invariably defensive coordinators figure out how to stop the guy if he doesn't stop himself first by getting injured because he forgets he's a QB and keeps taking big hits.

SF I would claim hoped (and probably still hopes) they get more out of Jimmy G than they've gotten.

Teams that spend a lot on their passing games generally want their passing games to work. They might value balance between pass and run, but almost all teams will rely on their passing games to make up late deficits.
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:06 pm
Outside of that, they traded away their best weapon in the passing attack last year, didn't upgrade the line that was better at run blocking than pass blocking, and just in 2018 fired an OC who didn't run enough. This looks like a team that wants to run the football.
I'm sure they want to run it - I'm not convinced they are selling out to run it.

I think they want balance and they want an explosive and consistent passing attack. If they have to choose between paying Cook franchise money or fielding said passing attack, they'll choose passing attack.
Keenum was good that year and I give him major props for that but Vikings made a smart decision letting him go and Keenum has been on the Broncos, Redskins, and now Browns since so it is pretty obvious he was not a very good quarterback on other teams
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by S197 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:33 pm

Against New Orleans, the Vikings ran 40 times. 73% of their 1st down plays were running plays. That's 19 out of 26 opportunities. They ran so much on 1st down, even Diggs had 2 carries on 1st down.

You don't rush 3/4ths of the time on first down or 40 times in a game unless you're trying to establish the run. This is a run first team. Yes, it's crazy to pay a QB to hand the ball off 40 times. But that's what we're doing. When we don't do this and go pass heavy, we end up with results like when JDF was here.

Cousins best attribute is play action. Play action only works if you establish the run. If the run game isn't clicking, then Cousins primary strength diminishes. Hence the reason the offense sputters when a team like SF or the Bears can contain the run.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by Passepartout » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:20 pm

If there is a season. Just hope he does not sit out as Kirk will need to throw to him!
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by RandyMoss84 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:45 pm

Passepartout wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:20 pm
If there is a season. Just hope he does not sit out as Kirk will need to throw to him!
Kirk can throw it to Mattison if Cook sits out
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by S197 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:56 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:45 pm
Passepartout wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:20 pm
If there is a season. Just hope he does not sit out as Kirk will need to throw to him!
Kirk can throw it to Mattison if Cook sits out
That's a lot of faith in a guy who caught 1 pass all year.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by RandyMoss84 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:21 pm

S197 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:56 pm
RandyMoss84 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:45 pm


Kirk can throw it to Mattison if Cook sits out
That's a lot of faith in a guy who caught 1 pass all year.
How is that Mattison’s fault? Mattison is not the starter
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by S197 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:31 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:21 pm
S197 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:56 pm


That's a lot of faith in a guy who caught 1 pass all year.
How is that Mattison’s fault? Mattison is not the starter
I didn't say it was his fault. What I'm saying is we don't know if he's nearly as good a receiver as Cook. He showed pretty good hands at Boise but he's not the same type of runner as Cook. Cook is more of an elusive/explosive back vs Mattison who is a power runner. Cook is typically the type of guy that will do better catching out of the backfield.

Cook and Derrick Henry are both really good RBs. But one has 500 receiving yards and one has 200. It's not as simple as just changing your starter with any 'ole RB.
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by RandyMoss84 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:02 pm

S197 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:31 pm
RandyMoss84 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:21 pm


How is that Mattison’s fault? Mattison is not the starter
I didn't say it was his fault. What I'm saying is we don't know if he's nearly as good a receiver as Cook. He showed pretty good hands at Boise but he's not the same type of runner as Cook. Cook is more of an elusive/explosive back vs Mattison who is a power runner. Cook is typically the type of guy that will do better catching out of the backfield.

Cook and Derrick Henry are both really good RBs. But one has 500 receiving yards and one has 200. It's not as simple as just changing your starter with any 'ole RB.
Ohh got it, well, if Cook sits out, we will find out if Mattison is good at catching
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Re: Ruh-Roh, Cook Plans to Hold Out?

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:33 pm

Interesting tidbit.

In 2019, the 3 teams who spent the most at the RB position were:
49ers
Patriots
Houston

In comparison, the 3 teams that spent the most on Oline:
Cowboys
Packers
Bucs

QB
Lions
Packers
Redskins
Vikings

WR
Browns
Colts
Bengals

TE
Redskins
Packers
Colts

Not that this means paying a lot for a RB helps you win more than paying a lot for WRs, it doesn't at all if you look at other years, but it was interesting to see the two teams at the top. One was a QB away from winning the SB last year, the other is the greatest dynasty of all time.
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