Cousins is actually better under the bright lights

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Re: Cousins is actually better under the bright lights

Post by Cliff » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:27 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:20 am
Cliff wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:15 am


Keenum's contract was $25 million guaranteed, Cousins was $84 million guaranteed. They might have made somewhat similar money in Case's first year but his contract was *way* more team friendly. We can carve it up however you want, Case got paid way less than Kirk. He would have also been easier to cut had things not worked out.

My point isn't that Case is the better QB. He isn't in most ways (though he is in some ways - poise and having a better nose for escaping trouble specifically). What the Vikings *could* have done was keep Case, draft a QB, and let that QB learn for a year or two. Case probably wasn't "the answer" - even though he has come closer than Cousins to being "the answer", if the problem is getting to the Superbowl.

The problem isn't that Kirk's contract is too high for what the "market" is going for. The problem is Kirk's contract is too high for the Vikings.
So you're telling me they got one year of Keenum for $25 million while we got 3 years of Cousins for $84 million. Sign me up for 3 years of Cousins. Not too high. He is doing well.
No, the $25 million was over two years.
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Re: Cousins is actually better under the bright lights

Post by VikingsVictorious » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:30 am

Cliff wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:25 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:40 pm


Here is where I disagree. This is simply the QB market. Cousins is currently the 5th highest paid per year on average (according to spotrac). But people say he is "overpaid". Name me a QB that makes LESS than he does per year that is much better or drastically better (not counting guys on rookie contracts still like Mahomes, Jackson, Watson, etc.)??

After Cousins, the list is as follows:

Wentz
Prescott
Ryan
Tannehill
Garoppolo
Stafford
Carr
Brees
Brady
Rivers
Smith
Bridgewater

.....Brees and Brady? Who are both over 40 and arent getting anything more than year to year contracts (or 2 year deals). Outside of that, I couldnt confidently say that any of those QBs are better than Cousins.

Wentz has proved nothing
Prescott is the definition of a QB that cant win big games and he's surrounded with weapons AND an elite OL.
Ryan was a one year wonder that can no longer win
Tannehill just isnt a good passer in any way, shape or form
Garoppolo rode the back of his defense
Stafford has been a consistent loser his entire career
Carr is Carr
Rivers is a turnover machine
Smith might never play again
Teddy is the most conservative/game managing QB in the NFL.

So my question is, who should be making MORE than Cousins (outside of the guys on rookie deals)?? Cousins is making the 5th most of any QB that's been given something outside of a rookie deal. That might sound high, but it's exactly where the market is heading. Mahomes will get a contract that makes Cousins look like a bag of peanuts and surpass him, so that will make him 6th highest paid. Jackson will land a mega deal, Cousins is now 7th highest paid, Prescotts new deal will shatter most, Cousins is now 8th highest paid. Watson will surpass Cousins, making him the 9th highest paid.

Point is, dont you believe Cousins is roughly the 7th-12th best QB in the NFL? I would 100% say yes. So is his contract really THAT out of line given what QBs are making right now? No less given he's in his prime?

The "Cousins is overpaid" argument has really washed out by this point. He's going to continue to drop down the list as rookie contract QBs start landing deals.

So many fans see Cousins is the "5th highest paid QB" and automatically think that means he is the 5th best QB in the league. And that is not at all what that means. He's not overpaid. He's right where he should be if you ask me.
I said something similar to someone else but there is "overpaid" for what the QB market is and then there is "overpaid" for the team he is on. As a Vikings, considering the team and what a QB needs to do on it, he's overpaid. Similar results could have been had with a lesser QB so paying one that much is worthless and it means others on the team can't be paid as much either and so you lose out on talent.

Lets say I have a Master's degree in computer science and my market value is $100,000 a year. That doesn't mean McDonald's should hire me as a manager for that much. It doesn't make sense. They could get other people that would likely do a similar job as me for less money.
Check the stats and results. The lesser paid QBs not on Rookie contracts are not producing the stats or results that Cousins is. Don't say Keenum because if Cousins had the 2017 Vikings defense we would already be holding the Lombardi.
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Re: Cousins is actually better under the bright lights

Post by Cliff » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:32 am

Fat Stupid Loser wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:33 pm
Well, that didn't work out so well for Denver. Or Washington. He had one good year on a really good team. His track record suggests he would not have reproduced that. That's what you get with 15M a year guys. But yeah, you can pay JJ with that extra cash. Its a valid approach. There just aren't many examples of consistently competitive teams with JAG QBs. Perhaps it was the right thing to do for that particular team to keep Case for the next year at that particular time. Don't know. I would have upgraded like Rick did. I think most GMs would also. I'm an internet GM though, so, you know. 8)
Didn't work out for the Vikings either. The Vikings and Denver both missed the post-season in 2018. So worst case scenario we keep the cheap QB and *still* don't make the playoffs. Best case, the Vikings *are* able to somewhat repeat their 2017 success with a QB that proved he was capable.
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Re: Cousins is actually better under the bright lights

Post by Cliff » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:32 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:30 am
Check the stats and results. The lesser paid QBs not on Rookie contracts are not producing the stats or results that Cousins is. Don't say Keenum because if Cousins had the 2017 Vikings defense we would already be holding the Lombardi.
The Vikings team was largely unchanged from 2017 to 2018. QB was by far the biggest difference. In other words - he basically *did* have the 2017 defense.
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Re: Cousins is actually better under the bright lights

Post by VikingsVictorious » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:33 am

Cliff wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:27 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:20 am

So you're telling me they got one year of Keenum for $25 million while we got 3 years of Cousins for $84 million. Sign me up for 3 years of Cousins. Not too high. He is doing well.
No, the $25 million was over two years.
Did Keenum start for them for 2 years? I don't think so. Did he even start for them for one full year? I forget. I remember he was signed for two years about 40 million. If he didn't get the full 40 million it was because he wasn't playing well enough.
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Re: Cousins is actually better under the bright lights

Post by VikingsVictorious » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:34 am

Cliff wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:32 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:30 am
Check the stats and results. The lesser paid QBs not on Rookie contracts are not producing the stats or results that Cousins is. Don't say Keenum because if Cousins had the 2017 Vikings defense we would already be holding the Lombardi.
The Vikings team was largely unchanged from 2017 to 2018. QB was by far the biggest difference.
Did the Vikings have one of the great all time D in 18 or 19? They did in 17.
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Re: Cousins is actually better under the bright lights

Post by Cliff » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:36 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:33 am
Cliff wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:27 am


No, the $25 million was over two years.
Did Keenum start for them for 2 years? I don't think so. Did he even start for them for one full year? I forget. I remember he was signed for two years about 40 million. If he didn't get the full 40 million it was because he wasn't playing well enough.
Right. Again, not saying Case is better, just that Kirk is not a big enough upgrade (for the Vikings specifically) to justify the major difference in contracts.
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Re: Cousins is actually better under the bright lights

Post by Cliff » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:37 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:34 am
Cliff wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:32 am


The Vikings team was largely unchanged from 2017 to 2018. QB was by far the biggest difference.
Did the Vikings have one of the great all time D in 18 or 19? They did in 17.
Same players (mostly), same coaches.
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Re: Cousins is actually better under the bright lights

Post by VikingsVictorious » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:39 am

Cliff wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:37 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:34 am

Did the Vikings have one of the great all time D in 18 or 19? They did in 17.
Same players, same coaches.
Completely irrelevant. Players performance changes from year to year. Keenum had one of the great defenses of all time playing for the Vikings. The D that has played for the Vikings the last two years was merely good. Was Xavier Rhodes the same player? NO he was the same person but exceedingly far from the same player.
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Re: Cousins is actually better under the bright lights

Post by VikingsVictorious » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:41 am

Cliff wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:36 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:33 am

Did Keenum start for them for 2 years? I don't think so. Did he even start for them for one full year? I forget. I remember he was signed for two years about 40 million. If he didn't get the full 40 million it was because he wasn't playing well enough.
Right. Again, not saying Case is better, just that Kirk is not a big enough upgrade (for the Vikings specifically) to justify the major difference in contracts.
I was in the keep Keenum camp. It is obvious I was ridiculously wrong. So glad the Vikings didn't listen to me.
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Re: Cousins is actually better under the bright lights

Post by Cliff » Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:25 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:41 am
Cliff wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:36 am


Right. Again, not saying Case is better, just that Kirk is not a big enough upgrade (for the Vikings specifically) to justify the major difference in contracts.
I was in the keep Keenum camp. It is obvious I was ridiculously wrong. So glad the Vikings didn't listen to me.
If we had kept Case we could have drafted Lamar Jackson. In hindsight that would have been the best move hands down.
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Re: Cousins is actually better under the bright lights

Post by Fat Stupid Loser » Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:35 am

Cliff wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:32 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:30 am
Check the stats and results. The lesser paid QBs not on Rookie contracts are not producing the stats or results that Cousins is. Don't say Keenum because if Cousins had the 2017 Vikings defense we would already be holding the Lombardi.
The Vikings team was largely unchanged from 2017 to 2018. QB was by far the biggest difference. In other words - he basically *did* have the 2017 defense.
Yeah, but they weren't the same D, for whatever reason.
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Re: Cousins is actually better under the bright lights

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:40 am

Cliff wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:32 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:30 am
Check the stats and results. The lesser paid QBs not on Rookie contracts are not producing the stats or results that Cousins is. Don't say Keenum because if Cousins had the 2017 Vikings defense we would already be holding the Lombardi.
The Vikings team was largely unchanged from 2017 to 2018. QB was by far the biggest difference. In other words - he basically *did* have the 2017 defense.
Come on cliff. There were massive differences. The biggest is what I mentioned before being the coordinator. Do you really think Keenum would have any sort of success with a pass happy coordinator like Flip? Not a chance.

And the 2017 defense was about as elite as they come. 2018 was not at that level, griffen missed time, Rhodes was tailing off, etc. It wasn’t even close IMO. You can pull up numbers if you want, but the 2017 defense was a truly special defense.

Cousins did NOT have the 2017 defense and he did NOT have pat Shurmur. Those two alone right there say it all. Having flip as an OC is worse than losing someone like Diggs. We all see how good Dalvin Cook is and look how much flip utilized him. That alone shows how bad he really was.
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Re: Cousins is actually better under the bright lights

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:45 am

Cliff wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:32 am
Fat Stupid Loser wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:33 pm
Well, that didn't work out so well for Denver. Or Washington. He had one good year on a really good team. His track record suggests he would not have reproduced that. That's what you get with 15M a year guys. But yeah, you can pay JJ with that extra cash. Its a valid approach. There just aren't many examples of consistently competitive teams with JAG QBs. Perhaps it was the right thing to do for that particular team to keep Case for the next year at that particular time. Don't know. I would have upgraded like Rick did. I think most GMs would also. I'm an internet GM though, so, you know. 8)
Didn't work out for the Vikings either. The Vikings and Denver both missed the post-season in 2018. So worst case scenario we keep the cheap QB and *still* don't make the playoffs. Best case, the Vikings *are* able to somewhat repeat their 2017 success with a QB that proved he was capable.
Cliff, based on the fact the Vikings clearly weren't sold on Case as a long term solution, don't you think that if they had signed him to a similar deal as the Broncos did (probably for less since players tend to get more in FAs than when they re-sign with their current team), is it safe to assume the Vikings would have been looking for a QBOTF in the 2018 draft? A draft that had a dynamic Louisville QB fall to where they were picking in the 1st, and where the Vikings made a luxury pick of a CB they didn't really need at the time?

Isn't the best case the Vikings extend Case during the 2017 season and draft Jackson?
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Re: Cousins is actually better under the bright lights

Post by Cliff » Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:51 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:40 am
Cliff wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:32 am


The Vikings team was largely unchanged from 2017 to 2018. QB was by far the biggest difference. In other words - he basically *did* have the 2017 defense.
Come on cliff. There were massive differences. The biggest is what I mentioned before being the coordinator. Do you really think Keenum would have any sort of success with a pass happy coordinator like Flip? Not a chance.

And the 2017 defense was about as elite as they come. 2018 was not at that level, griffen missed time, Rhodes was tailing off, etc. It wasn’t even close IMO. You can pull up numbers if you want, but the 2017 defense was a truly special defense.

Cousins did NOT have the 2017 defense and he did NOT have pat Shurmur. Those two alone right there say it all. Having flip as an OC is worse than losing someone like Diggs. We all see how good Dalvin Cook is and look how much flip utilized him. That alone shows how bad he really was.
Flip was a big change, that's true.

Still, all it sounds like you're saying to me is the window was firmly shut after 2017 and spending a bunch of money on a good but not elite QB wasn't a good idea.

Right now the defense is more or less in rebuilding mode. The offense lost a major weapon. Will Kirk help the offense overcome those things? Probably not. Whether or not it's his fault is irrelevant, really. By the time this team is ready to compete for a superbowl again we'll be on the hunt for a QB again. Probably a new coaching staff too.
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