Vikings offensive line

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RandyMoss84
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Re: Vikings offensive line

Post by RandyMoss84 » Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:57 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:32 pm
Those who are feeling doom and gloom about the Vikings OL I think are going to get a huge surprise. IMO we are soon going to have one of the best OLs in all of the NFL. We have young players in O'Neill, Samia, Cleveland, Udoh, ready to emerge and late rounders that I believe are diamonds in the rough in Brandel and Hinton. Call me a homer if you want, but I truly believe this.
How soon exactly?
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Re: Vikings offensive line

Post by VikingLord » Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:07 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:23 pm
Didn't O'Neill play most of the season his Rookie year? Yeah I know Cleveland has to overtake one of Elf, Reiff, Udoh, Samia to play. Remember most players don't play 100% of the snaps also. So I would be shocked as hell if Cleveland doesn't play for the Vikings this year. I doubt if the Vikings have ever had a 2nd round pick not play for them barring injury in the history of the franchise.
O'Neill was thrust into a starting role when Reiff was injured and Rashod Hill had to shift over to LT. Absent that, O'Neill likely would have sat out that year, at least in terms of substantive playing time.

Cleveland might see the field in a very limited fashion, but I stand by my statement that he won't become a starter absent an injury situation that thrusts him into the starting role, and even then I think the Vikings might end up shifting O'Neill to LT and trying Udoh at RT if that situation repeats unless Cleveland really knocks their socks off during the offseason.
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Re: Vikings offensive line

Post by VikingsVictorious » Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:11 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:07 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:23 pm
Didn't O'Neill play most of the season his Rookie year? Yeah I know Cleveland has to overtake one of Elf, Reiff, Udoh, Samia to play. Remember most players don't play 100% of the snaps also. So I would be shocked as hell if Cleveland doesn't play for the Vikings this year. I doubt if the Vikings have ever had a 2nd round pick not play for them barring injury in the history of the franchise.
O'Neill was thrust into a starting role when Reiff was injured and Rashod Hill had to shift over to LT. Absent that, O'Neill likely would have sat out that year, at least in terms of substantive playing time.

Cleveland might see the field in a very limited fashion, but I stand by my statement that he won't become a starter absent an injury situation that thrusts him into the starting role, and even then I think the Vikings might end up shifting O'Neill to LT and trying Udoh at RT if that situation repeats unless Cleveland really knocks their socks off during the offseason.
Cleveland will see the field. That is without question. The question is how much. Wouldn't surprise me at all if it's a lot. Wouldn't surprise me at all if it's a little.
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Re: Vikings offensive line

Post by Maelstrom88 » Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:09 pm

I'm curious how many people believe Elf can improve still? He is only 25. Is it too soon to write him off?
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Re: Vikings offensive line

Post by VikingsVictorious » Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:21 pm

Maelstrom88 wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:09 pm
I'm curious how many people believe Elf can improve still? He is only 25. Is it too soon to write him off?
He could improve, but I've pretty much written him off. I just read on Daily Norseman that most OL show their best improvement years 3 and 4.
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Re: Vikings offensive line

Post by Maelstrom88 » Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:32 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:21 pm
Maelstrom88 wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:09 pm
I'm curious how many people believe Elf can improve still? He is only 25. Is it too soon to write him off?
He could improve, but I've pretty much written him off. I just read on Daily Norseman that most OL show their best improvement years 3 and 4.
I haven't completely given up but I think it would be very smart to have a back up plan this year ready to go. Unless they're very confident in what they have I'd like to see Kline back.

What do you think his main problem is? Core strength, technique, speed, being forced to change to guard... I just don't know why he has underperformed so much. A 3rd round pick from a big school with a wrestling background who is reportedly not lazy or dumb. I don't get it.

Maybe he hasn't been coached well. I miss Tony Sparano..
Last edited by Maelstrom88 on Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vikings offensive line

Post by Maelstrom88 » Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:42 pm

From Twitter:

Ok here are the complete stats on last years O-line: Pat Elflein-6 sacks, 38 pressures Riley Reiff -5 sacks, 32 pressures Garrett Bradbury-4 sacks, 29 pressures Josh Kline-2 sacks, 22 pressures Brian O'Neill-1 sack, 22 pressures Reiff & Elfein were horrible in pass protection

I don't understand why Kline was cut.
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Re: Vikings offensive line

Post by Pep2Moss » Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:22 am

Maelstrom88 wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:42 pm
From Twitter:

Ok here are the complete stats on last years O-line: Pat Elflein-6 sacks, 38 pressures Riley Reiff -5 sacks, 32 pressures Garrett Bradbury-4 sacks, 29 pressures Josh Kline-2 sacks, 22 pressures Brian O'Neill-1 sack, 22 pressures Reiff & Elfein were horrible in pass protection

I don't understand why Kline was cut.
Especially since it cost them 2.67 mil in dead cap as well. Makes zero sense. Has any reporter ever asked them that? I haven't seen it anywhere. All I could find is they wanted him to restructure and he said nope, not interested
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Re: Vikings offensive line

Post by fiestavike » Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:47 am

Maelstrom88 wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:42 pm
From Twitter:

Ok here are the complete stats on last years O-line: Pat Elflein-6 sacks, 38 pressures Riley Reiff -5 sacks, 32 pressures Garrett Bradbury-4 sacks, 29 pressures Josh Kline-2 sacks, 22 pressures Brian O'Neill-1 sack, 22 pressures Reiff & Elfein were horrible in pass protection

I don't understand why Kline was cut.
I haven't studied the tape, but here's what I remember from watching the games. Elflein was really bad, especially in pass protection, where he often ended the play about the same place that the RB had started the play. Reiff was Reiff. He isn't stoning guys, but he does enough to get them to the top of the dropback. Some of his sacks are on Kirk for not stepping up, which is something he struggles with. Some of them might be Elflein, who gave Kirk no place to step up into at times. With regard to Kline, supposedly he was viewed as the weakest link, and Bradbury generally was helping him, thus a double team against his guy in many cases. I think Elflein was more on an island, but I'm not certain that Kline was actually better.

It seems pretty bad to have 12 of your sacks come up the middle. The Vikings need to shore that up and quickly. Step one seems to be to get rid of Elflein unless he has added some serious strength. Both he and Bradburry might have some legit upside just through adding strength and progressing one year toward 'old man strength' which is important for OL. Having said that, Cleveland and Brandel aren't likely to see the field. It generally takes time to add the kind of strength needed to control your opponent in the NFL.

One last thought, Riley Reiff probably would be a really good guard in this system, and the trade off of Cleveland/Reiff vs Reiff/Elflein might prove to be an overall improvement despite the youthfulness of the LT prospect. On the other hand, that is a shortsighted, win now move. If Reiff is not going to be with you past this year for cap reasons, the best course of action is to find someone else who has potential to man LG going forward, and let Reiff be just a bridge to Cleveland while he bulks up.
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Re: Vikings offensive line

Post by fiestavike » Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:48 am

Pep2Moss wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:22 am
Maelstrom88 wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:42 pm
From Twitter:

Ok here are the complete stats on last years O-line: Pat Elflein-6 sacks, 38 pressures Riley Reiff -5 sacks, 32 pressures Garrett Bradbury-4 sacks, 29 pressures Josh Kline-2 sacks, 22 pressures Brian O'Neill-1 sack, 22 pressures Reiff & Elfein were horrible in pass protection

I don't understand why Kline was cut.
Especially since it cost them 2.67 mil in dead cap as well. Makes zero sense. Has any reporter ever asked them that? I haven't seen it anywhere. All I could find is they wanted him to restructure and he said nope, not interested
There was dead cap, but there were also cap savings.
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Re: Vikings offensive line

Post by halfgiz » Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:34 am

And if Kline comes back how much savings will there be? Cutting Kline seems like another stupid move on the Vikings.

Another problem with Elf was his holding calls.
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Re: Vikings offensive line

Post by fiestavike » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:17 am

halfgiz wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:34 am
And if Kline comes back how much savings will there be? Cutting Kline seems like another stupid move on the Vikings.

Another problem with Elf was his holding calls.
There's a good chance they'll cut Elflein too if they get an offseason to let guys compete.

There's also a case to be made for sticking Cole, Metellus or Hand at S and letting Harris walk.

Shamar Stephen? Eric Wilson? Time to get cheaper and younger now.

If the team wants to resign Cook and try to front load enough to not be in perpetual cap hell, they'll need to replace these guys on the roster this year in all likelihood.

The cap ramifications of whatever they do with cook will be wide ranging.
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Re: Vikings offensive line

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:19 am

Maelstrom88 wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:42 pm
From Twitter:

Ok here are the complete stats on last years O-line: Pat Elflein-6 sacks, 38 pressures Riley Reiff -5 sacks, 32 pressures Garrett Bradbury-4 sacks, 29 pressures Josh Kline-2 sacks, 22 pressures Brian O'Neill-1 sack, 22 pressures Reiff & Elfein were horrible in pass protection

I don't understand why Kline was cut.
Because he wasn't very good. The RG generally faces a lot of run stopping NTs on 1st and 2nd down and is not as important in pass protection as a LT, LG or RT. They also can get a lot of help from the center. Unless a RG is truly horrible, like Remmers in 2018, sacks and pressure will not come through that position.

Kline didn't have the big splashy mistakes Elf did, but he did just overall play worse than anyone on the line but the rookie next to him. Whether you are a PFF guy who takes their grades as the gold standard or if you think the coaching staff's opinion is the most important thing for how to feel about an Olineman, he was a below average RG.
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Re: Vikings offensive line

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:22 am

fiestavike wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:17 am
halfgiz wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:34 am
And if Kline comes back how much savings will there be? Cutting Kline seems like another stupid move on the Vikings.

Another problem with Elf was his holding calls.
There's a good chance they'll cut Elflein too if they get an offseason to let guys compete.

There's also a case to be made for sticking Cole, Metellus or Hand at S and letting Harris walk.

Shamar Stephen
? Eric Wilson? Time to get cheaper and younger now.

If the team wants to resign Cook and try to front load enough to not be in perpetual cap hell, they'll need to replace these guys on the roster this year in all likelihood.

The cap ramifications of whatever they do with cook will be wide ranging.
I wish the Vikings would take the same approach with Stephen that they did with Kline. One of the worst 3 techs in the NFL, 0 upside, but he sticks with the team because he knows Zim's system.
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Re: Vikings offensive line

Post by fiestavike » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:26 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:22 am
fiestavike wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:17 am


There's a good chance they'll cut Elflein too if they get an offseason to let guys compete.

There's also a case to be made for sticking Cole, Metellus or Hand at S and letting Harris walk.

Shamar Stephen
? Eric Wilson? Time to get cheaper and younger now.

If the team wants to resign Cook and try to front load enough to not be in perpetual cap hell, they'll need to replace these guys on the roster this year in all likelihood.

The cap ramifications of whatever they do with cook will be wide ranging.
I wish the Vikings would take the same approach with Stephen that they did with Kline. One of the worst 3 techs in the NFL, 0 upside, but he sticks with the team because he knows Zim's system.
I think Stephen has some value as an early down 3T, a backup NT, or perhaps as a 5T DE. Still, he represents 1.2 in cap savings, despite a healthy dead cap hit, and it might be better to take that blow now than next year, plus give more reps to a younger guy.
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