Hey Spielman try TRADING UP FOR A CHANGE!!!

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S197
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Re: Hey Spielman try TRADING UP FOR A CHANGE!!!

Post by S197 » Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:24 am

I’d take Danielle Hunter over TJ. Clemmings, Mycole Pruitt, Tyrus Thompson and Austin Shepherd.

I’d take Jerick McKinnon over David Yankey, Antone Exum, and Shamar Stephen.

I’d take Everson Griffen over Chris Degeare, Nate Triplett and Joe Webb.

I’d take Kyle Rudolph over Christian Ballard, Brandon Burton, and Demarcus Love.

I’d take Jarius Wright over Robert Blanton, Blair Walsh and Audie Cole.

It’s nice that Rick wins drafts on paper and with day after grades. If you actually look at how his strategy pans out, it’s far less impressive.
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Re: Hey Spielman try TRADING UP FOR A CHANGE!!!

Post by fiestavike » Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:33 am

S197 wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:24 am
I’d take Danielle Hunter over TJ. Clemmings, Mycole Pruitt, Tyrus Thompson and Austin Shepherd.

I’d take Jerick McKinnon over David Yankey, Antone Exum, and Shamar Stephen.

I’d take Everson Griffen over Chris Degeare, Nate Triplett and Joe Webb.

I’d take Kyle Rudolph over Christian Ballard, Brandon Burton, and Demarcus Love.

I’d take Jarius Wright over Robert Blanton, Blair Walsh and Audie Cole.

It’s nice that Rick wins drafts on paper and with day after grades. If you actually look at how his strategy pans out, it’s far less impressive.
I'd rather have Jarius Wright and Rhett Ellison than Matt Kalil.

I'd rather have Antone Exum and Shamar Stephen and Jabari Price than Scott Crichton.

I'd rather have Stefon Diggs and Edmond Robinson than T.J. Clemmings

I'd rather have Danielle Hunter than Trae Waynes

I'd rather have Kentrell Brothers, David Morgan, Stephen Weatherly and Jayron Kearse than Laquon Treadwell or Willie Beavers.

I'd rather have Ifeadi Odenigbo than Pat Elflein.

This is a very silly game that cuts both ways, and on the whole, supports the argument for trading back.
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Re: Hey Spielman try TRADING UP FOR A CHANGE!!!

Post by fiestavike » Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:21 am

Just to add some names and faces to some of this conversation without using the benefit of hindsight, here is a list of players the vikings added by trading back in the 2020 draft. That is, the Vikings wouldn't have had these picks to select ANYONE without trading back.

• 2020 fourth round pick (#117-D.J. Wonnum)
• 2020 fifth round pick (#176-K.J. Osborn
• 2020 fifth round pick (#169-Harrison Hand)
• 2020 sixth round pick (#203-Blake Brandel)
• 2020 seventh round pick (#244-Nate Stanley)

Of course, they might all miss, but to add these players they moved from 25 to 31 and selected Gladney. Almost nobody the Vikings were likely to take came off in those six picks, so in this particular case, Gladney was probably the pick at 25 too. That was DJ Wonnum and K.J. Osborn.

for moving back from 105 to 130 where they took James Lynch, they add Hand, Brandel and Stanley.

It may prove to be the case, over time, that there is some particular player they should have taken at 25, or 105 who would have been better than the selection they took at 31 or 130 (in fact, its pretty likely)...maybe so much better that they even eclipse the other 3 players added in this trade, or the other 3 players are so pedestrian that they don't even factor into the equation (not a unrealistic possibility), but that assumes the Vikings would have drafted this particular much better player (currently a mystery player) when in all likelihood they would not have (There is very roughly, lets say only a 1 in 25 chance they would have taken said player), and at this point, NOBODY can even tell you with certainty who that mystery player is. Its just about as likely they stand pat and still miss that same player between picks 25 and 31 or 105 and 130, then Rick Spielman gets criticized for being dumb and not selecting player X when he had the chance, instead of trading back and not taking player X, when every sane person knows they were extremely unlikely to take player X in either case, not having the benefit of hindsight.
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Re: Hey Spielman try TRADING UP FOR A CHANGE!!!

Post by halfgiz » Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:49 am

I think that Rick missed taking a few impact players because he just sat there with his precious picks.
The Offensive line, we got lucky and Cleveland fell to us. Then the only other OL picks was R6 and R7 both projects. How did he do with the offensive line?? Which was a priority!

We could have had Lamb who would have been a better fit and more of an impact player.
But Rick sat on his picks.
Last edited by halfgiz on Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hey Spielman try TRADING UP FOR A CHANGE!!!

Post by StumpHunter » Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:57 am

fiestavike wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:21 am
Just to add some names and faces to some of this conversation without using the benefit of hindsight, here is a list of players the vikings added by trading back in the 2020 draft. That is, the Vikings wouldn't have had these picks to select ANYONE without trading back.

• 2020 fourth round pick (#117-D.J. Wonnum)
• 2020 fifth round pick (#176-K.J. Osborn
• 2020 fifth round pick (#169-Harrison Hand)
• 2020 sixth round pick (#203-Blake Brandel)
• 2020 seventh round pick (#244-Nate Stanley)

Of course, they might all miss, but to add these players they moved from 25 to 31 and selected Gladney. Almost nobody the Vikings were likely to take came off in those six picks, so in this particular case, Gladney was probably the pick at 25 too. That was DJ Wonnum and K.J. Osborn.

for moving back from 105 to 130 where they took James Lynch, they add Hand, Brandel and Stanley.

It may prove to be the case, over time, that there is some particular player they should have taken at 25, or 105 who would have been better than the selection they took at 31 or 130 (in fact, its pretty likely)...maybe so much better that they even eclipse the other 3 players added in this trade, or the other 3 players are so pedestrian that they don't even factor into the equation (not a unrealistic possibility), but that assumes the Vikings would have drafted this particular much better player (currently a mystery player) when in all likelihood they would not have (There is very roughly, lets say only a 1 in 25 chance they would have taken said player), and at this point, NOBODY can even tell you with certainty who that mystery player is. Its just about as likely they stand pat and still miss that same player between picks 25 and 31 or 105 and 130, then Rick Spielman gets criticized for being dumb and not selecting player X when he had the chance, instead of trading back and not taking player X, when every sane person knows they were extremely unlikely to take player X in either case, not having the benefit of hindsight.
When you add names it makes it worse imo.
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Re: Hey Spielman try TRADING UP FOR A CHANGE!!!

Post by StumpHunter » Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:01 am

Every GM can trade back, it doesn't take some mad genius to do so.

Trading back and accumulating picks does not necessarily make for a great draft, and it feels like that is what people are saying. Since we got all those picks, the Vikes' draft was amazing.

In the end it all boils down to what players pan out, whether we traded back to accumulate picks or traded up to get the guy we wanted.
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Re: Hey Spielman try TRADING UP FOR A CHANGE!!!

Post by fiestavike » Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:34 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:01 am
Every GM can trade back, it doesn't take some mad genius to do so.

Trading back and accumulating picks does not necessarily make for a great draft, and it feels like that is what people are saying. Since we got all those picks, the Vikes' draft was amazing.

In the end it all boils down to what players pan out, whether we traded back to accumulate picks or traded up to get the guy we wanted.
I'm saying just the opposite. Its not mad genius, its common sense.
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Re: Hey Spielman try TRADING UP FOR A CHANGE!!!

Post by fiestavike » Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:39 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:57 am
fiestavike wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:21 am
Just to add some names and faces to some of this conversation without using the benefit of hindsight, here is a list of players the vikings added by trading back in the 2020 draft. That is, the Vikings wouldn't have had these picks to select ANYONE without trading back.

• 2020 fourth round pick (#117-D.J. Wonnum)
• 2020 fifth round pick (#176-K.J. Osborn
• 2020 fifth round pick (#169-Harrison Hand)
• 2020 sixth round pick (#203-Blake Brandel)
• 2020 seventh round pick (#244-Nate Stanley)

Of course, they might all miss, but to add these players they moved from 25 to 31 and selected Gladney. Almost nobody the Vikings were likely to take came off in those six picks, so in this particular case, Gladney was probably the pick at 25 too. That was DJ Wonnum and K.J. Osborn.

for moving back from 105 to 130 where they took James Lynch, they add Hand, Brandel and Stanley.

It may prove to be the case, over time, that there is some particular player they should have taken at 25, or 105 who would have been better than the selection they took at 31 or 130 (in fact, its pretty likely)...maybe so much better that they even eclipse the other 3 players added in this trade, or the other 3 players are so pedestrian that they don't even factor into the equation (not a unrealistic possibility), but that assumes the Vikings would have drafted this particular much better player (currently a mystery player) when in all likelihood they would not have (There is very roughly, lets say only a 1 in 25 chance they would have taken said player), and at this point, NOBODY can even tell you with certainty who that mystery player is. Its just about as likely they stand pat and still miss that same player between picks 25 and 31 or 105 and 130, then Rick Spielman gets criticized for being dumb and not selecting player X when he had the chance, instead of trading back and not taking player X, when every sane person knows they were extremely unlikely to take player X in either case, not having the benefit of hindsight.
When you add names it makes it worse imo.
Just curious, did you read past the list of names?
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Re: Hey Spielman try TRADING UP FOR A CHANGE!!!

Post by StumpHunter » Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:21 am

fiestavike wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:34 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:01 am
Every GM can trade back, it doesn't take some mad genius to do so.

Trading back and accumulating picks does not necessarily make for a great draft, and it feels like that is what people are saying. Since we got all those picks, the Vikes' draft was amazing.

In the end it all boils down to what players pan out, whether we traded back to accumulate picks or traded up to get the guy we wanted.
I'm saying just the opposite. Its not mad genius, its common sense.
Then why doesn't every GM do it?
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Re: Hey Spielman try TRADING UP FOR A CHANGE!!!

Post by StumpHunter » Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:25 am

fiestavike wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:39 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:57 am


When you add names it makes it worse imo.
Just curious, did you read past the list of names?
Yes.

I am just saying the guys they added were very meh to me. Wonnum I could get behind, because the Vikings have had success at DE in that part of the draft, but why not just draft him in the 3rd to begin with if you like him so much?

It was a way to go about a draft, and it is cool that you like it, your opinion is valid. I just am not sold.
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Re: Hey Spielman try TRADING UP FOR A CHANGE!!!

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:41 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:01 am
Every GM can trade back, it doesn't take some mad genius to do so.

Trading back and accumulating picks does not necessarily make for a great draft, and it feels like that is what people are saying. Since we got all those picks, the Vikes' draft was amazing.

In the end it all boils down to what players pan out, whether we traded back to accumulate picks or traded up to get the guy we wanted.
I don’t think anyone is saying that at all. Clearly rick Spielman wasn’t the only GM that traded back through the draft. But I said:
Sure, their performance is going to be the true tell but the promise that this draft has is as good as any draft we’ve had.
Guys are simply excited about the promise in this draft. The fact that we lost so much this offseason and just gained so much during the draft. This draft screams potential, filled a ton of needs and makes fans excited. And when myself of someone else calls rick a genius for doing what he did it’s not just because he “traded back”.

-he gained a 4th and 5th round pick for moving back 6 spots and still landing the guy we wanted.

-he moved back 25 picks and landed a 4, 5, 6 and 7. Not only did he gain all those picks but he also wiped out and stole the rest of the saints draft, a team we could very well be competing against again in the playoffs.

-he traded away a 5th to the Bears for a 2021 4th

-he traded a 6th away to the ravens for a 2021 5th.

That right there is what is genius in many ways. Gaining more capital while still getting the guy you want, fleecing a top NFC contender by stealing the rest of their draft and using it on high upside players, and then making two 2021 draft pick acquisitions. All of this gave us the guys we wanted, more picks to take more players which in turn gives us a higher probability to hit and gave us more draft capital in 2021 when we already had a ton to begin with. There is a lot more to it than just “trading back”. It’s extremely hard to claim any of those moves as “bad moves”. Everything worked out in our favor for not only right now, but the future as well. It was one of the most well executed drafts I’ve seen Spielman pull of since he’s been here in terms of maximizing the talent he brought in, the amount of picks I agreed with and really liked and how he continued to build for the following year with mid round picks, not late rounders.
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Re: Hey Spielman try TRADING UP FOR A CHANGE!!!

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:45 am

S197 wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:24 am
I’d take Danielle Hunter over TJ. Clemmings, Mycole Pruitt, Tyrus Thompson and Austin Shepherd.

I’d take Jerick McKinnon over David Yankey, Antone Exum, and Shamar Stephen.

I’d take Everson Griffen over Chris Degeare, Nate Triplett and Joe Webb.

I’d take Kyle Rudolph over Christian Ballard, Brandon Burton, and Demarcus Love.

I’d take Jarius Wright over Robert Blanton, Blair Walsh and Audie Cole.

It’s nice that Rick wins drafts on paper and with day after grades. If you actually look at how his strategy pans out, it’s far less impressive.
I'd rather have Diggs than LaQuon Treadwell. What's your point? It's easy to name proven players you would rather have than players already proven to suck.
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Re: Hey Spielman try TRADING UP FOR A CHANGE!!!

Post by fiestavike » Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:53 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:25 am
fiestavike wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:39 am


Just curious, did you read past the list of names?
Yes.

I am just saying the guys they added were very meh to me. Wonnum I could get behind, because the Vikings have had success at DE in that part of the draft, but why not just draft him in the 3rd to begin with if you like him so much?

It was a way to go about a draft, and it is cool that you like it, your opinion is valid. I just am not sold.
I feel like you didn't read it. I'm not saying they aren't 'meh'. I'm not saying they are going to be great. I really don't think you were following me. :confused:
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Re: Hey Spielman try TRADING UP FOR A CHANGE!!!

Post by Maelstrom88 » Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:44 am

halfgiz wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:49 am
I think that Rick missed taking a few impact players because he just sat there with his precious picks.
The Offensive line, we got lucky and Cleveland fell to us. Then the only other OL picks was R6 and R7 both projects. How did he do with the offensive line?? Which was a priority!

We could have had Lamb who would have been a better fit and more of an impact player.
But Rick sat on his picks.
Do we know the teams on the clock ahead of the cowboys were willing to trade all the way down with us? I doubt it unless we gave up the farm.
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Re: Hey Spielman try TRADING UP FOR A CHANGE!!!

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:20 pm

Maelstrom88 wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:44 am
halfgiz wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:49 am
I think that Rick missed taking a few impact players because he just sat there with his precious picks.
The Offensive line, we got lucky and Cleveland fell to us. Then the only other OL picks was R6 and R7 both projects. How did he do with the offensive line?? Which was a priority!

We could have had Lamb who would have been a better fit and more of an impact player.
But Rick sat on his picks.
Do we know the teams on the clock ahead of the cowboys were willing to trade all the way down with us? I doubt it unless we gave up the farm.
I'm almost certain the Falcons would've traded with us for our second round pick but we would've taken Jefferson anyway
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