Viking Draft selections

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
VikingsVictorious
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1367
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 354

Re: Viking Draft selections

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun May 03, 2020 11:27 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 9:31 pm
VikingPaul73 wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 8:09 am


wow that is a bold statement. I know Jefferson is promising but to compare him to Diggs (I know not directly but at least you're saying he is closer to Diggs than Bisi is to Sharpe) before playing a snap is a bit premature to me. Time will tell, I hope you are right!!!
Sure it's simply based off of assumption and is definitely premature but I'm not saying Jefferson will be better than Diggs but I think Sharpe is much better than Bisi. My whole thing is, the Thielen, Diggs, Bisi group, IMO it's just two WRs. You can find a Bisi Johnson anywhere. Like sure I think it's a good hit for a 7th rounder but we could simply find a FA WR on vet minimum that could repeat 31 catches for 294 yards. And I can tell you that Bisi wouldnt repeat that in Tennessee. They have struggled with QB play since Sharpe has been there and I dont see Bisi putting up numbers like that in Tennessee. The last few years Sharpe has had similar numbers but I think Sharpe is definitely a better talent. He's just had bad QBs.

As for Jefferson, I think he's going to be the top dog within a few years. Thielen is always going to be solid just because of his work ethic and elite route running. But I think it will eventually be Jefferson as the #1 and Thielen as the #2. I honestly think Jefferson has a legit shot to win offensive rookie of the year. He's falling into a position that was getting 90+ targets a year. They arent going to be afraid to throw him into the fire and he's done nothing but play against top level competition his whole college career. I see Jefferson as a 1000 yard WR by year 2. Jefferson would've been a top 12-15 pick if it wasnt for Jeudy, Lamb and Ruggs IMO.

Again, I know I'm going out on a limb but I personally like that WR core as a GROUP better than what we had this past year. If I'm wrong, I'll eat crow but I'm hoping I am not.
Bisi is virtually worthless so I agree with you on Sharpe being better. Sharpe is a #4 level WR in my book while Bisi is a practice squad level. Jefferson is about 10 years younger than Thielen so I think you aren't going out on a limb to project him becoming the #1. For this year though I think it is unlikely that Sharpe is enough better than Bisi to make up for the dropoff from Diggs in his prime to Jefferson in his rookie year. I hope I'm wrong about that and Jefferson steps right in replacing Diggs production year one.
0 x

User avatar
fiestavike
Hall of Fame Inductee
Posts: 4518
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am
x 272

Re: Viking Draft selections

Post by fiestavike » Mon May 04, 2020 8:31 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 11:27 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 9:31 pm


Sure it's simply based off of assumption and is definitely premature but I'm not saying Jefferson will be better than Diggs but I think Sharpe is much better than Bisi. My whole thing is, the Thielen, Diggs, Bisi group, IMO it's just two WRs. You can find a Bisi Johnson anywhere. Like sure I think it's a good hit for a 7th rounder but we could simply find a FA WR on vet minimum that could repeat 31 catches for 294 yards. And I can tell you that Bisi wouldnt repeat that in Tennessee. They have struggled with QB play since Sharpe has been there and I dont see Bisi putting up numbers like that in Tennessee. The last few years Sharpe has had similar numbers but I think Sharpe is definitely a better talent. He's just had bad QBs.

As for Jefferson, I think he's going to be the top dog within a few years. Thielen is always going to be solid just because of his work ethic and elite route running. But I think it will eventually be Jefferson as the #1 and Thielen as the #2. I honestly think Jefferson has a legit shot to win offensive rookie of the year. He's falling into a position that was getting 90+ targets a year. They arent going to be afraid to throw him into the fire and he's done nothing but play against top level competition his whole college career. I see Jefferson as a 1000 yard WR by year 2. Jefferson would've been a top 12-15 pick if it wasnt for Jeudy, Lamb and Ruggs IMO.

Again, I know I'm going out on a limb but I personally like that WR core as a GROUP better than what we had this past year. If I'm wrong, I'll eat crow but I'm hoping I am not.
Bisi is virtually worthless so I agree with you on Sharpe being better. Sharpe is a #4 level WR in my book while Bisi is a practice squad level. Jefferson is about 10 years younger than Thielen so I think you aren't going out on a limb to project him becoming the #1. For this year though I think it is unlikely that Sharpe is enough better than Bisi to make up for the dropoff from Diggs in his prime to Jefferson in his rookie year. I hope I'm wrong about that and Jefferson steps right in replacing Diggs production year one.
Man, you are too quick to write people off. A 7th round pick is thrown into action due to Thielen's injury and the shallowness of the WR position...he has some flashes, is a little inconsistent, and already he's 'worthless'. I'm gonna say Thielen, Jefferson, and Bisi Johnson are the three WRs on this team with the most roster security. I like Sharpe fine enough, but should one of the young bucks under contract for a couple more years step up, he's the guy on the one year deal who doesn't have a clear future with the team past this season.
0 x

User avatar
VikingsVictorious
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1367
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 354

Re: Viking Draft selections

Post by VikingsVictorious » Mon May 04, 2020 9:01 am

fiestavike wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 8:31 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 11:27 pm

Bisi is virtually worthless so I agree with you on Sharpe being better. Sharpe is a #4 level WR in my book while Bisi is a practice squad level. Jefferson is about 10 years younger than Thielen so I think you aren't going out on a limb to project him becoming the #1. For this year though I think it is unlikely that Sharpe is enough better than Bisi to make up for the dropoff from Diggs in his prime to Jefferson in his rookie year. I hope I'm wrong about that and Jefferson steps right in replacing Diggs production year one.
Man, you are too quick to write people off. A 7th round pick is thrown into action due to Thielen's injury and the shallowness of the WR position...he has some flashes, is a little inconsistent, and already he's 'worthless'. I'm gonna say Thielen, Jefferson, and Bisi Johnson are the three WRs on this team with the most roster security. I like Sharpe fine enough, but should one of the young bucks under contract for a couple more years step up, he's the guy on the one year deal who doesn't have a clear future with the team past this season.
You could very well be right and I still think Bisi is close to worthless. My preference for the Vikings WR corp is Thielen, Jefferson, Mitchell, Sharpe, Q Davis and Osborn. If we keep 6. If not I'm ok with cutting one of those last three. Just not sure which. My faith in Mitchell is unfounded based on what's transpired since we drafted him, but I know what I saw of him in college.
0 x

User avatar
fiestavike
Hall of Fame Inductee
Posts: 4518
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am
x 272

Re: Viking Draft selections

Post by fiestavike » Mon May 04, 2020 9:25 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 9:01 am
fiestavike wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 8:31 am


Man, you are too quick to write people off. A 7th round pick is thrown into action due to Thielen's injury and the shallowness of the WR position...he has some flashes, is a little inconsistent, and already he's 'worthless'. I'm gonna say Thielen, Jefferson, and Bisi Johnson are the three WRs on this team with the most roster security. I like Sharpe fine enough, but should one of the young bucks under contract for a couple more years step up, he's the guy on the one year deal who doesn't have a clear future with the team past this season.
You could very well be right and I still think Bisi is close to worthless. My preference for the Vikings WR corp is Thielen, Jefferson, Mitchell, Sharpe, Q Davis and Osborn. If we keep 6. If not I'm ok with cutting one of those last three. Just not sure which. My faith in Mitchell is unfounded based on what's transpired since we drafted him, but I know what I saw of him in college.
Mitchell, Hollins, Davis, I like the potential of a lot of our younger WRs. Certainly, the guys who have spent a year in this system are going to be at a real advantage when it comes to making the 55 man roster. That holds even more true with abbreviated preseason.
0 x

Pep2Moss
Rookie
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:15 am
x 27

Re: Viking Draft selections

Post by Pep2Moss » Mon May 04, 2020 5:55 pm

I think teams will be less inclined to cut draft picks and UDFA from this past April due to the short spring/summer schedule. I think a lot of these practice squad and end of the roster guys are in trouble, even though they have more experience in the system. Honestly can't see Rick cutting 5 or 6 guys from his latest draft.
1 x

User avatar
fiestavike
Hall of Fame Inductee
Posts: 4518
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am
x 272

Re: Viking Draft selections

Post by fiestavike » Mon May 04, 2020 6:47 pm

Pep2Moss wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 5:55 pm
I think teams will be less inclined to cut draft picks and UDFA from this past April due to the short spring/summer schedule. I think a lot of these practice squad and end of the roster guys are in trouble, even though they have more experience in the system. Honestly can't see Rick cutting 5 or 6 guys from his latest draft.
That's an interesting thought. Does the recency and promise of the 'new toy' outweigh the system familiarity of a 2nd year player when 'you sort of know what you have in them' both for better and worse?
0 x

User avatar
VikingsVictorious
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1367
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 354

Re: Viking Draft selections

Post by VikingsVictorious » Mon May 04, 2020 7:55 pm

Pep2Moss wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 5:55 pm
I think teams will be less inclined to cut draft picks and UDFA from this past April due to the short spring/summer schedule. I think a lot of these practice squad and end of the roster guys are in trouble, even though they have more experience in the system. Honestly can't see Rick cutting 5 or 6 guys from his latest draft.
I would be cutting the ones who have had their chance and shown nothing. Stephen, Cam Smith, J Johnson, Holmes, Mata'afa unless this weight gain has turned him around Jones, Elf. Beebe, Bisi was nothing special, but might be better than the alternatives. He was our #2 for a while and really did not look good. That is how bad our WR situation was last year. We brought Treadwell back. :shock: I don't think we need Boone.Him or Abdullah one is expendable.
0 x

Pep2Moss
Rookie
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:15 am
x 27

Re: Viking Draft selections

Post by Pep2Moss » Tue May 05, 2020 8:45 am

fiestavike wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 6:47 pm
Pep2Moss wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 5:55 pm
I think teams will be less inclined to cut draft picks and UDFA from this past April due to the short spring/summer schedule. I think a lot of these practice squad and end of the roster guys are in trouble, even though they have more experience in the system. Honestly can't see Rick cutting 5 or 6 guys from his latest draft.
That's an interesting thought. Does the recency and promise of the 'new toy' outweigh the system familiarity of a 2nd year player when 'you sort of know what you have in them' both for better and worse?
Yeah I think the new toy syndrome will win out. I think when you're dealing with limited time you are more likely to say "Hmmm, well they didn't make a difference before these new 20 guys, what makes me think they will now?"
0 x

User avatar
VikingPaul73
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3153
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:07 pm
x 84

Re: Viking Draft selections

Post by VikingPaul73 » Tue May 05, 2020 10:36 am

I would think it's more of a case by case situation. Just because a young player has only been on the Practice squad or hasn't contributed yet, doesn't mean the coaches don't see a lot of potential and promise in an individual. It's called player development, and it still happens. Look at guys like Thielen, Everson Griffen, Anthony Harris just to name a few. They didn't come in their rookie seasons like Randy Moss and light the NFL on fire......but took some time to develop and eventually all became Pro Bowlers.
1 x

User avatar
VikingsVictorious
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1367
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 354

Re: Viking Draft selections

Post by VikingsVictorious » Tue May 05, 2020 11:27 am

VikingPaul73 wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:36 am
I would think it's more of a case by case situation. Just because a young player has only been on the Practice squad or hasn't contributed yet, doesn't mean the coaches don't see a lot of potential and promise in an individual. It's called player development, and it still happens. Look at guys like Thielen, Everson Griffen, Anthony Harris just to name a few. They didn't come in their rookie seasons like Randy Moss and light the NFL on fire......but took some time to develop and eventually all became Pro Bowlers.
Wisdom. Hopefully Samia and Udoh are ready to rock. Come on Mitchell.
0 x

User avatar
VikingPaul73
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3153
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:07 pm
x 84

Re: Viking Draft selections

Post by VikingPaul73 » Tue May 05, 2020 11:34 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 11:27 am
VikingPaul73 wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:36 am
I would think it's more of a case by case situation. Just because a young player has only been on the Practice squad or hasn't contributed yet, doesn't mean the coaches don't see a lot of potential and promise in an individual. It's called player development, and it still happens. Look at guys like Thielen, Everson Griffen, Anthony Harris just to name a few. They didn't come in their rookie seasons like Randy Moss and light the NFL on fire......but took some time to develop and eventually all became Pro Bowlers.
Wisdom. Hopefully Samia and Udoh are ready to rock. Come on Mitchell.
:smilevike: :smilevike: :smilevike: :smilevike:
0 x

Eller
Waterboy
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:54 pm
x 1

Re: Viking Draft selections

Post by Eller » Tue May 05, 2020 7:48 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:14 pm
IIsweet wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:25 pm
I am always an optimistic person, but we draft so many players that are out of the league quicker than any other team. I get it with so many draft picks, but when you draft people, you have to replace people.
I just am hoping for a great draft.
As far as needs, we continue to move down and possibly miss on guys that could have solidified those needs.
I would be curious as to how many guys we missed out on because we traded down, have gone on to have solid starting NFL careers.
I know it's tempting to look at what Rick Spielman has done in the draft in isolation and say he sucks, but that's not the best way to look at his performance, nor is it really fair to him.

The best way to look at the performance of any GM is to compare his performance to his peers. For purposes of comparing draft performance to peers, you almost have to look at a given draft after about 3 years have passed to see how the players chosen panned out. After 3 years, how many of the selected players are starters for their original team? How many are major contributors, either in the original role for which they were chosen or in any role (like special teams)? How many are not on their original team, but are starters elsewhere? How many are not on their original team but are still in the league? How many have made a pro bowl or gotten recognition as an all pro?

Then you stack up these results across all GMs in the NFL and you can get a pretty good idea of where your team's GM stands relative to his peers.

My guess is Spielman is probably pretty average when it comes to his draft results. In terms of his overall performance as a GM, that is harder to say, because that includes other things like free agency and trades and what-not. That could potentially be evaluated more objectively in other ways, such as looking at individual player rankings in key statistical categories over a set time period. If a trade was made, what was the relative impact on each trade partner by the traded player(s) over the set time? If picks were traded, look at the same for the players chosen by each team. Etc.

While the above is the most objective way to evaluate a given GM, a more crude way to do it is simply to look at team results during the GM's tenure - how many division, conference, and league championships were won? How many seasons with winning records? The more crude measures don't isolate things specific to the GM so they're not as good at calling out his performance relative to that of others, but they can still provide some useful information to compare with other teams.
Spielman is actually better then average. there are more Vikings who were drafted on the roster then any other team.

Draft is a crapshoot. Some kids work there tail off, some dont. That helps a lot. If you look at Spielmans drafts he picks a lot of Notre Dame guys, guys who are low trouble hard work ethic, it shows enough. If Vikes get 4 starters out of this draft its terrific, Spielman increased those odds by getting lots of draft picks. I am a little tired of the Vikings devolopment of offensive lineman too. But Zimmer is great at developing defensive ends.

Would have to say the drafting of Trae Waynes looks bad now, but the Giants busted on Eli Apple too, it just happens.
1 x

User avatar
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 12141
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii
x 365

Re: Viking Draft selections

Post by S197 » Tue May 05, 2020 8:07 pm

How many Notre Dame players do we have? Off the top of my head I can think of Smith and Rudy.
2 x

User avatar
fiestavike
Hall of Fame Inductee
Posts: 4518
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am
x 272

Re: Viking Draft selections

Post by fiestavike » Wed May 06, 2020 7:45 am

Eller wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 7:48 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:14 pm


I know it's tempting to look at what Rick Spielman has done in the draft in isolation and say he sucks, but that's not the best way to look at his performance, nor is it really fair to him.

The best way to look at the performance of any GM is to compare his performance to his peers. For purposes of comparing draft performance to peers, you almost have to look at a given draft after about 3 years have passed to see how the players chosen panned out. After 3 years, how many of the selected players are starters for their original team? How many are major contributors, either in the original role for which they were chosen or in any role (like special teams)? How many are not on their original team, but are starters elsewhere? How many are not on their original team but are still in the league? How many have made a pro bowl or gotten recognition as an all pro?

Then you stack up these results across all GMs in the NFL and you can get a pretty good idea of where your team's GM stands relative to his peers.

My guess is Spielman is probably pretty average when it comes to his draft results. In terms of his overall performance as a GM, that is harder to say, because that includes other things like free agency and trades and what-not. That could potentially be evaluated more objectively in other ways, such as looking at individual player rankings in key statistical categories over a set time period. If a trade was made, what was the relative impact on each trade partner by the traded player(s) over the set time? If picks were traded, look at the same for the players chosen by each team. Etc.

While the above is the most objective way to evaluate a given GM, a more crude way to do it is simply to look at team results during the GM's tenure - how many division, conference, and league championships were won? How many seasons with winning records? The more crude measures don't isolate things specific to the GM so they're not as good at calling out his performance relative to that of others, but they can still provide some useful information to compare with other teams.
Spielman is actually better then average. there are more Vikings who were drafted on the roster then any other team.

Draft is a crapshoot. Some kids work there tail off, some dont. That helps a lot. If you look at Spielmans drafts he picks a lot of Notre Dame guys, guys who are low trouble hard work ethic, it shows enough. If Vikes get 4 starters out of this draft its terrific, Spielman increased those odds by getting lots of draft picks. I am a little tired of the Vikings devolopment of offensive lineman too. But Zimmer is great at developing defensive ends.

Would have to say the drafting of Trae Waynes looks bad now, but the Giants busted on Eli Apple too, it just happens.
Trae Waynes is a fine enough player, but I don't think he had the demeanor to really truly excel at the NFL level. Demeanor is a difficult thing to gauge in the draft process, but its 2nd only to having sufficient athleticism in importance.
1 x

User avatar
VikingPaul73
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3153
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:07 pm
x 84

Re: Viking Draft selections

Post by VikingPaul73 » Wed May 06, 2020 8:25 am

Agreed fiesta
Waynes never fully lived up to his draft position but he developed into a solid starter and was great against the Run. I think the Bengals overpaid dramatically, so it was smart for Rick to let him go- but I would have loved to keep Waynes as a starter at a reasonable price. This just wasn’t an option
1 x