Dalvin Cook

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Re: Dalvin Cook

Post by RandyMoss84 » Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:55 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:50 pm
S197 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:21 pm
Our OC has literally made a career out of taking RBs no one has ever heard of and making them highly productive. I don't see anyone saying Cook isn't worth $4M, and he's not taking $4M from anyone anyway, the question is should the Vikings be the ones to give him his payday.

That's when you need to look at Kubiaks model for success. The lack of prior success by teams who overpay RBs. Our cap situation. And also Cook's durability concerns. It all adds up to a poor investment in my opinion.
THIS.

Kubiak has done it over and over and over. Even in Denver his first go-round as OC in the 90s. We make a big deal out of Terrell Davis. Remember, he was a lightly regarded 6th-round draft choice out of Georgia who became a HOFer with Kubiak as his OC. You look at all the guys that have rushed for 1,000 yards under him, only Clinton Portis was a high pick, and even HE was only a 2nd rounder. The others are guys like Reuben Droughns (3rd round), Mike Anderson (6th round), Justin Forsett (7th round), and Arian Foster (UFA).

It simply makes no sense to pay a running back big money when Gary Kubiak has proven he can make just about anyone a 1,000 yard rusher.
I do not know why Terrell Davis is a Hall of Famer, he only played 6 years in the NFL
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Re: Dalvin Cook

Post by VikingsVictorious » Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:19 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:55 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:50 pm

THIS.

Kubiak has done it over and over and over. Even in Denver his first go-round as OC in the 90s. We make a big deal out of Terrell Davis. Remember, he was a lightly regarded 6th-round draft choice out of Georgia who became a HOFer with Kubiak as his OC. You look at all the guys that have rushed for 1,000 yards under him, only Clinton Portis was a high pick, and even HE was only a 2nd rounder. The others are guys like Reuben Droughns (3rd round), Mike Anderson (6th round), Justin Forsett (7th round), and Arian Foster (UFA).

It simply makes no sense to pay a running back big money when Gary Kubiak has proven he can make just about anyone a 1,000 yard rusher.
I do not know why Terrell Davis is a Hall of Famer, he only played 6 years in the NFL
He's a borderline case, but was so dominant and won a super bowl is the reason he got in.
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Re: Dalvin Cook

Post by fiestavike » Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:50 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:55 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:50 pm

THIS.

Kubiak has done it over and over and over. Even in Denver his first go-round as OC in the 90s. We make a big deal out of Terrell Davis. Remember, he was a lightly regarded 6th-round draft choice out of Georgia who became a HOFer with Kubiak as his OC. You look at all the guys that have rushed for 1,000 yards under him, only Clinton Portis was a high pick, and even HE was only a 2nd rounder. The others are guys like Reuben Droughns (3rd round), Mike Anderson (6th round), Justin Forsett (7th round), and Arian Foster (UFA).

It simply makes no sense to pay a running back big money when Gary Kubiak has proven he can make just about anyone a 1,000 yard rusher.
I do not know why Terrell Davis is a Hall of Famer, he only played 6 years in the NFL
Gary Kubiak.
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Re: Dalvin Cook

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:28 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:50 pm
S197 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:21 pm
Our OC has literally made a career out of taking RBs no one has ever heard of and making them highly productive. I don't see anyone saying Cook isn't worth $4M, and he's not taking $4M from anyone anyway, the question is should the Vikings be the ones to give him his payday.

That's when you need to look at Kubiaks model for success. The lack of prior success by teams who overpay RBs. Our cap situation. And also Cook's durability concerns. It all adds up to a poor investment in my opinion.
THIS.

Kubiak has done it over and over and over. Even in Denver his first go-round as OC in the 90s. We make a big deal out of Terrell Davis. Remember, he was a lightly regarded 6th-round draft choice out of Georgia who became a HOFer with Kubiak as his OC. You look at all the guys that have rushed for 1,000 yards under him, only Clinton Portis was a high pick, and even HE was only a 2nd rounder. The others are guys like Reuben Droughns (3rd round), Mike Anderson (6th round), Justin Forsett (7th round), and Arian Foster (UFA).

It simply makes no sense to pay a running back big money when Gary Kubiak has proven he can make just about anyone a 1,000 yard rusher.
Interestingly enough, both Foster and Davis (the only two running backs to have real consistent success under Kubiak) got large contracts when Kubiak was coaching them. They were special backs and Kubiak wanted to keep them.

He prefers great RBs to average ones he could coax a solid season out of here or there.

Since he is the RB guru, shouldn't we trust his judgement?
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Re: Dalvin Cook

Post by VikingLord » Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:27 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:59 am
I think if both sides of the Dalvin debate looked at this honestly they could both agree that:

A) A repeat, or close to a repeat of Dalvin's 2019 season each of the next 5 seasons would be worth 16 million a year.

B) A repeat, or close to a repeat of Dalvin's 2019 season each of the next 5 seasons is very unlikely. In fact, getting 2 more seasons like that does not seem likely based on the production of most RBs in their 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th seasons.

C) It is not as easy as just deciding to go with running back by committee and boom, you have a quick replacement for Cook. Odds are that if we traded Cook or let him walk after the next season the RB position would be seriously downgraded.

The Vikings have a tough choice to make, but they would be wise to make it sooner rather than later. They should trade or extend him before the draft to avoid a hold out and allow themselves the opportunity to find his replacement via the draft if they go the trade route. The worst thing they can do IMO, is nothing.
I know you didn't post this Stump, but someone posted that Waynes is making $14 million... Is that $14 million over the life of the contract, or $14 million per year average?

Because when other people are talking about paying Cook $10 million plus, I assume that's on a per-year basis. The two contracts can't be compared like that, not only because the two play completely different positions, but also because the per year dollar amounts (and cap impacts) are completely different as well.

Now, to your points...

A) Dalvin Cook's 2019 season can be summed up as 8 months of superlative performance, 8 months split between off-field injury and on-field average performance due to injury, his team ended up as the lowest seeded wildcard, one good playoff game, and one "did he even play?" playoff game. Call me crazy, but that isn't worth $16 million per year.

B) Per A), even if Cook *did* repeat 2019, that isn't worth $16 million per year. It's not worth $10.

C) Odds are the RB position group would not experience a substantial downgrade if the Vikings traded Cook *provided* they got better along the OL. What would likely happen is they'd have fewer highlight reel runs for some portion of the season. Beyond that, I'm not convinced they'd lose overall production, and in fact they might gain it.

Great investors and great GMs share a common characteristic - they know when to sell. Cook's value will likely never be higher than it is right now. In another year he'll either be a free agent with no trade value at all or the Vikings will have sunk a big portion of future cap commitment into him with little hope of trading him should he decline as most RBs do during their second contracts.

Based on hard evidence to this point, there is virtually no chance Cook is the rare RB who bucks that well-established trend at the position. Spielman would be wise to either let him play out his final year or trade him.
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Re: Dalvin Cook

Post by VikingLord » Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:32 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:50 pm
S197 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:21 pm
Our OC has literally made a career out of taking RBs no one has ever heard of and making them highly productive. I don't see anyone saying Cook isn't worth $4M, and he's not taking $4M from anyone anyway, the question is should the Vikings be the ones to give him his payday.

That's when you need to look at Kubiaks model for success. The lack of prior success by teams who overpay RBs. Our cap situation. And also Cook's durability concerns. It all adds up to a poor investment in my opinion.
THIS.

Kubiak has done it over and over and over. Even in Denver his first go-round as OC in the 90s. We make a big deal out of Terrell Davis. Remember, he was a lightly regarded 6th-round draft choice out of Georgia who became a HOFer with Kubiak as his OC. You look at all the guys that have rushed for 1,000 yards under him, only Clinton Portis was a high pick, and even HE was only a 2nd rounder. The others are guys like Reuben Droughns (3rd round), Mike Anderson (6th round), Justin Forsett (7th round), and Arian Foster (UFA).

It simply makes no sense to pay a running back big money when Gary Kubiak has proven he can make just about anyone a 1,000 yard rusher.
You know what Kubiak's secret sauce is?

He knows how to draft and coach OL. He knows the value of good blocking at the TE, WR, and FB positions. He knows the value of matching the blocking schemes to the strengths of his blockers.

And out of that he conjures good or great RBs out of whole cloth.

It's not the other way around.

Would Kubiak love to have an uber-talented RB to carry the ball behind his well-constructed and trained blockers? Who wouldn't?

But Kubiak's approach doesn't *require* that because the approach is so fundamentally sound that he can get a lot out of much less talented runners. Kind of ala what the 49ers managed last year.
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Re: Dalvin Cook

Post by VikingsVictorious » Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:33 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:27 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:59 am
I think if both sides of the Dalvin debate looked at this honestly they could both agree that:

A) A repeat, or close to a repeat of Dalvin's 2019 season each of the next 5 seasons would be worth 16 million a year.

B) A repeat, or close to a repeat of Dalvin's 2019 season each of the next 5 seasons is very unlikely. In fact, getting 2 more seasons like that does not seem likely based on the production of most RBs in their 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th seasons.

C) It is not as easy as just deciding to go with running back by committee and boom, you have a quick replacement for Cook. Odds are that if we traded Cook or let him walk after the next season the RB position would be seriously downgraded.

The Vikings have a tough choice to make, but they would be wise to make it sooner rather than later. They should trade or extend him before the draft to avoid a hold out and allow themselves the opportunity to find his replacement via the draft if they go the trade route. The worst thing they can do IMO, is nothing.
I know you didn't post this Stump, but someone posted that Waynes is making $14 million... Is that $14 million over the life of the contract, or $14 million per year average?

Because when other people are talking about paying Cook $10 million plus, I assume that's on a per-year basis. The two contracts can't be compared like that, not only because the two play completely different positions, but also because the per year dollar amounts (and cap impacts) are completely different as well.

Now, to your points...

A) Dalvin Cook's 2019 season can be summed up as 8 months of superlative performance, 8 months split between off-field injury and on-field average performance due to injury, his team ended up as the lowest seeded wildcard, one good playoff game, and one "did he even play?" playoff game. Call me crazy, but that isn't worth $16 million per year.

B) Per A), even if Cook *did* repeat 2019, that isn't worth $16 million per year. It's not worth $10.

C) Odds are the RB position group would not experience a substantial downgrade if the Vikings traded Cook *provided* they got better along the OL. What would likely happen is they'd have fewer highlight reel runs for some portion of the season. Beyond that, I'm not convinced they'd lose overall production, and in fact they might gain it.

Great investors and great GMs share a common characteristic - they know when to sell. Cook's value will likely never be higher than it is right now. In another year he'll either be a free agent with no trade value at all or the Vikings will have sunk a big portion of future cap commitment into him with little hope of trading him should he decline as most RBs do during their second contracts.

Based on hard evidence to this point, there is virtually no chance Cook is the rare RB who bucks that well-established trend at the position. Spielman would be wise to either let him play out his final year or trade him.
Waynes contract is $56 million over 4 years. It is AAV of $14 Million. I say Dalvin Cook is easily more significant in helping the Vikings win games than Waynes ever was. I'm not saying we should pay Dalvin $14 million a year. However, this anti running back BS in my opinion is getting out of hand. No it isn't automatic that Mattison can replace Cook and we won't see a difference. Imagine if Cook actually got really good blocking. He would rush for 2000 with a 6 YPC and 18Tds. Add 500 yards and 5 TDs receiving and that will help us win a lot of football games.
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Re: Dalvin Cook

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:51 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:33 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:27 pm


I know you didn't post this Stump, but someone posted that Waynes is making $14 million... Is that $14 million over the life of the contract, or $14 million per year average?

Because when other people are talking about paying Cook $10 million plus, I assume that's on a per-year basis. The two contracts can't be compared like that, not only because the two play completely different positions, but also because the per year dollar amounts (and cap impacts) are completely different as well.

Now, to your points...

A) Dalvin Cook's 2019 season can be summed up as 8 months of superlative performance, 8 months split between off-field injury and on-field average performance due to injury, his team ended up as the lowest seeded wildcard, one good playoff game, and one "did he even play?" playoff game. Call me crazy, but that isn't worth $16 million per year.

B) Per A), even if Cook *did* repeat 2019, that isn't worth $16 million per year. It's not worth $10.

C) Odds are the RB position group would not experience a substantial downgrade if the Vikings traded Cook *provided* they got better along the OL. What would likely happen is they'd have fewer highlight reel runs for some portion of the season. Beyond that, I'm not convinced they'd lose overall production, and in fact they might gain it.

Great investors and great GMs share a common characteristic - they know when to sell. Cook's value will likely never be higher than it is right now. In another year he'll either be a free agent with no trade value at all or the Vikings will have sunk a big portion of future cap commitment into him with little hope of trading him should he decline as most RBs do during their second contracts.

Based on hard evidence to this point, there is virtually no chance Cook is the rare RB who bucks that well-established trend at the position. Spielman would be wise to either let him play out his final year or trade him.
Waynes contract is $56 million over 4 years. It is AAV of $14 Million. I say Dalvin Cook is easily more significant in helping the Vikings win games than Waynes ever was. I'm not saying we should pay Dalvin $14 million a year. However, this anti running back BS in my opinion is getting out of hand. No it isn't automatic that Mattison can replace Cook and we won't see a difference. Imagine if Cook actually got really good blocking. He would rush for 2000 with a 6 YPC and 18Tds. Add 500 yards and 5 TDs receiving and that will help us win a lot of football games.
Now you’re speculating WILDLY. Seven players have rushed for 2k in NFL history, and now Dalvin Cook is automatic? How about he play a full season before we fit him for a gold jacket? PFF doesn’t even think he’s the best RB in his own division.

And it’s only BS in your mind. Virtually every team in the NFL has devalued the RB position to the point that almost no one is paying them big bucks. Teams that do pay them get burned. The list is long ... Todd Gurley, David Johnson, LeVeon Bell, Lamar Miller, even Zeke. All bad signings.

Smart teams build the line and let the RB position take care of itself.
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Re: Dalvin Cook

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:01 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:32 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:50 pm

THIS.

Kubiak has done it over and over and over. Even in Denver his first go-round as OC in the 90s. We make a big deal out of Terrell Davis. Remember, he was a lightly regarded 6th-round draft choice out of Georgia who became a HOFer with Kubiak as his OC. You look at all the guys that have rushed for 1,000 yards under him, only Clinton Portis was a high pick, and even HE was only a 2nd rounder. The others are guys like Reuben Droughns (3rd round), Mike Anderson (6th round), Justin Forsett (7th round), and Arian Foster (UFA).

It simply makes no sense to pay a running back big money when Gary Kubiak has proven he can make just about anyone a 1,000 yard rusher.
You know what Kubiak's secret sauce is?

He knows how to draft and coach OL. He knows the value of good blocking at the TE, WR, and FB positions. He knows the value of matching the blocking schemes to the strengths of his blockers.

And out of that he conjures good or great RBs out of whole cloth.

It's not the other way around.

Would Kubiak love to have an uber-talented RB to carry the ball behind his well-constructed and trained blockers? Who wouldn't?

But Kubiak's approach doesn't *require* that because the approach is so fundamentally sound that he can get a lot out of much less talented runners. Kind of ala what the 49ers managed last year.
Of course that’s his secret sauce! I never said it was the other way around. I’ve been singing this guy’s praises since we hired him. Nobody has posted more stats and facts about Kubiak than I have. Even with a suspect line, we still ran the ball well last year, and that was with Kubiak as an advisor. Now he’s OC. Uber-talented RB? To heck with that. What could Kubiak do with an uber-talented O-line?

Everything you and I are saying is even more reason not to overpay for a running back. Put that money into the line, and let’s win some games.
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Re: Dalvin Cook

Post by VikingsVictorious » Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:20 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:51 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:33 pm

Waynes contract is $56 million over 4 years. It is AAV of $14 Million. I say Dalvin Cook is easily more significant in helping the Vikings win games than Waynes ever was. I'm not saying we should pay Dalvin $14 million a year. However, this anti running back BS in my opinion is getting out of hand. No it isn't automatic that Mattison can replace Cook and we won't see a difference. Imagine if Cook actually got really good blocking. He would rush for 2000 with a 6 YPC and 18Tds. Add 500 yards and 5 TDs receiving and that will help us win a lot of football games.
Now you’re speculating WILDLY. Seven players have rushed for 2k in NFL history, and now Dalvin Cook is automatic? How about he play a full season before we fit him for a gold jacket? PFF doesn’t even think he’s the best RB in his own division.

And it’s only BS in your mind. Virtually every team in the NFL has devalued the RB position to the point that almost no one is paying them big bucks. Teams that do pay them get burned. The list is long ... Todd Gurley, David Johnson, LeVeon Bell, Lamar Miller, even Zeke. All bad signings.

Smart teams build the line and let the RB position take care of itself.
Yes I'm speculating, but look what he did with a somewhat crappy line last year. Give him the good blocking and I think those numbers are legit. Is Cook Gurley? No David Johnson? No, LeVeon Bell? No Lamar Miller? No. Zeke? No so I guess what those guys have done is irrelevant. I agree that giving big long term deals to RBs is risky so as much as I like Cook I'm not in favor of giving him a big long term deal. I still say your $4,000,001 max is ludicrous. Sorry for offending you, but that's the way I see it. I still respect your football knowledge and contributions here immensely.
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Re: Dalvin Cook

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:12 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:20 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:51 pm

Now you’re speculating WILDLY. Seven players have rushed for 2k in NFL history, and now Dalvin Cook is automatic? How about he play a full season before we fit him for a gold jacket? PFF doesn’t even think he’s the best RB in his own division.

And it’s only BS in your mind. Virtually every team in the NFL has devalued the RB position to the point that almost no one is paying them big bucks. Teams that do pay them get burned. The list is long ... Todd Gurley, David Johnson, LeVeon Bell, Lamar Miller, even Zeke. All bad signings.

Smart teams build the line and let the RB position take care of itself.
Yes I'm speculating, but look what he did with a somewhat crappy line last year. Give him the good blocking and I think those numbers are legit. Is Cook Gurley? No David Johnson? No, LeVeon Bell? No Lamar Miller? No. Zeke? No so I guess what those guys have done is irrelevant. I agree that giving big long term deals to RBs is risky so as much as I like Cook I'm not in favor of giving him a big long term deal. I still say your $4,000,001 max is ludicrous. Sorry for offending you, but that's the way I see it. I still respect your football knowledge and contributions here immensely.
You’re not offending me.

I just don’t see how you can elevate Dalvin Cook to an automatic 2,000 yard rushing season when the best he’s ever done is 1,654 yards total from scrimmage. Just you believe he can do that doesn’t justify $8 million or $10 million for a non-premium position.

And you’re just flat-out wrong about the other guys. Their situations are totally relevant. All of them had actually accomplished MORE than Cook when they got their deals. Look at the top 10 RB salaries in the NFL for last year. There’s not a single one of them that anybody in their right mind would say, “Yep, I’d do that deal again.” Every single deal, including Ezekiel Elliott, has turned out bad. Guess where the bottom salary in that list is. You got it ... $5 million. In other words, $1 million over my proposed max. That’s anything but ludicrous.

NFL guys are into comps. What player does another player compare to? The most applicable comp for Dalvin Cook is David Johnson. He had played three seasons when he got his 3-year, $39 million deal ... same as Cook. He’d had one great season ... same as Cook ... only his was better, with 15 straight games of 100 or more yards from scrimmage, ending up with more than 2,100 total yards and 20 touchdowns. And like Cook, the rest of his career has been marred by injuries. Teams look at the David Johnson case and see it as a cautionary tale.

And here’s the kicker. Seven of the top 10 highest-paid RBs are or were employed by ... the Houston Texans. That means 25 other teams, or 78% of the league agree, with me.

That’s why I’m not offended. Having an informed opinion gives a guy a lot of peace. Look, I love Dalvin Cook. I think he’s special. He may be the best in the league. But there’s no way I pay ANY running back the kind of money you’re talking about.
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Re: Dalvin Cook

Post by StumpHunter » Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:46 am

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:27 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:59 am
I think if both sides of the Dalvin debate looked at this honestly they could both agree that:

A) A repeat, or close to a repeat of Dalvin's 2019 season each of the next 5 seasons would be worth 16 million a year.

B) A repeat, or close to a repeat of Dalvin's 2019 season each of the next 5 seasons is very unlikely. In fact, getting 2 more seasons like that does not seem likely based on the production of most RBs in their 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th seasons.

C) It is not as easy as just deciding to go with running back by committee and boom, you have a quick replacement for Cook. Odds are that if we traded Cook or let him walk after the next season the RB position would be seriously downgraded.

The Vikings have a tough choice to make, but they would be wise to make it sooner rather than later. They should trade or extend him before the draft to avoid a hold out and allow themselves the opportunity to find his replacement via the draft if they go the trade route. The worst thing they can do IMO, is nothing.
I know you didn't post this Stump, but someone posted that Waynes is making $14 million... Is that $14 million over the life of the contract, or $14 million per year average?

Because when other people are talking about paying Cook $10 million plus, I assume that's on a per-year basis. The two contracts can't be compared like that, not only because the two play completely different positions, but also because the per year dollar amounts (and cap impacts) are completely different as well.

Now, to your points...

A) Dalvin Cook's 2019 season can be summed up as 8 months of superlative performance, 8 months split between off-field injury and on-field average performance due to injury, his team ended up as the lowest seeded wildcard, one good playoff game, and one "did he even play?" playoff game. Call me crazy, but that isn't worth $16 million per year.

B) Per A), even if Cook *did* repeat 2019, that isn't worth $16 million per year. It's not worth $10.

C) Odds are the RB position group would not experience a substantial downgrade if the Vikings traded Cook *provided* they got better along the OL. What would likely happen is they'd have fewer highlight reel runs for some portion of the season. Beyond that, I'm not convinced they'd lose overall production, and in fact they might gain it.

Great investors and great GMs share a common characteristic - they know when to sell. Cook's value will likely never be higher than it is right now. In another year he'll either be a free agent with no trade value at all or the Vikings will have sunk a big portion of future cap commitment into him with little hope of trading him should he decline as most RBs do during their second contracts.

Based on hard evidence to this point, there is virtually no chance Cook is the rare RB who bucks that well-established trend at the position. Spielman would be wise to either let him play out his final year or trade him.
In 2018, the offense struggled and from an efficiency standpoint was 22nd in the NFL in scoring.

In 2019, the offense improved to 6th in scoring efficiency. This was without a healthy #2 WR for the majority of the season. (something we will have for the entirety of 2020).

Why?

Some of that was an improved offensive line, some of it was improved play calling.

The majority of it was improved play from the RB position.

To me, 16 million is worth going from a bottom of the barrel offense to one that is top 6. You just aren't winning many games as the 22nd ranked scoring offense and you certainly aren't winning the SB. You can say that finding a RB who could make that kind of impact is easy, but it really isn't. If it was, every team would have a Dalvin Cook, and you look around the league and see about 10 comparable RBs.

You can say the odds are that the RB position group would not experience a significant downgrade if we moved on from Cook, but considering most teams RB groups are a significant downgrade from ours with Cook, it appears the odds are not in our favor of easily replacing him.

All that being said, I am very much on the fence about extending him. We can't afford to spend a lot of cap on a guy who gets hurt and doesn't contribute, like so many RBs do. I just think we are not a playoff team without him last year. We are not winning in NO without him. That is valuable and tough to replace.
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Re: Dalvin Cook

Post by StumpHunter » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:25 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:12 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:20 pm

Yes I'm speculating, but look what he did with a somewhat crappy line last year. Give him the good blocking and I think those numbers are legit. Is Cook Gurley? No David Johnson? No, LeVeon Bell? No Lamar Miller? No. Zeke? No so I guess what those guys have done is irrelevant. I agree that giving big long term deals to RBs is risky so as much as I like Cook I'm not in favor of giving him a big long term deal. I still say your $4,000,001 max is ludicrous. Sorry for offending you, but that's the way I see it. I still respect your football knowledge and contributions here immensely.
Look at the top 10 RB salaries in the NFL for last year. There’s not a single one of them that anybody in their right mind would say, “Yep, I’d do that deal again.” Every single deal, including Ezekiel Elliott, has turned out bad. Guess where the bottom salary in that list is. You got it ... $5 million. In other words, $1 million over my proposed max. That’s anything but ludicrous.
People keep saying Elliot's deal was bad. Is there a reason? He had a really good season.
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Re: Dalvin Cook

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:44 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:12 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:20 pm

Yes I'm speculating, but look what he did with a somewhat crappy line last year. Give him the good blocking and I think those numbers are legit. Is Cook Gurley? No David Johnson? No, LeVeon Bell? No Lamar Miller? No. Zeke? No so I guess what those guys have done is irrelevant. I agree that giving big long term deals to RBs is risky so as much as I like Cook I'm not in favor of giving him a big long term deal. I still say your $4,000,001 max is ludicrous. Sorry for offending you, but that's the way I see it. I still respect your football knowledge and contributions here immensely.
You’re not offending me.

I just don’t see how you can elevate Dalvin Cook to an automatic 2,000 yard rushing season when the best he’s ever done is 1,654 yards total from scrimmage. Just you believe he can do that doesn’t justify $8 million or $10 million for a non-premium position.

And you’re just flat-out wrong about the other guys. Their situations are totally relevant. All of them had actually accomplished MORE than Cook when they got their deals. Look at the top 10 RB salaries in the NFL for last year. There’s not a single one of them that anybody in their right mind would say, “Yep, I’d do that deal again.” Every single deal, including Ezekiel Elliott, has turned out bad. Guess where the bottom salary in that list is. You got it ... $5 million. In other words, $1 million over my proposed max. That’s anything but ludicrous.

NFL guys are into comps. What player does another player compare to? The most applicable comp for Dalvin Cook is David Johnson. He had played three seasons when he got his 3-year, $39 million deal ... same as Cook. He’d had one great season ... same as Cook ... only his was better, with 15 straight games of 100 or more yards from scrimmage, ending up with more than 2,100 total yards and 20 touchdowns. And like Cook, the rest of his career has been marred by injuries. Teams look at the David Johnson case and see it as a cautionary tale.

And here’s the kicker. Seven of the top 10 highest-paid RBs are or were employed by ... the Houston Texans. That means 25 other teams, or 78% of the league agree, with me.

That’s why I’m not offended. Having an informed opinion gives a guy a lot of peace. Look, I love Dalvin Cook. I think he’s special. He may be the best in the league. But there’s no way I pay ANY running back the kind of money you’re talking about.
No 78% of the league doesn't agree with you. Not on $4,000,001 max for a RB. I agree with you not to give huge long term deals to RBs. I just don't take it to the ridiculous IMO extreme that you do.Those other RBs aren't Cook so what they have done is completely irrelevant to Cook. Cook is a good short yardage back and a GREAT home run hitter. The best breakaway threat at RB in the NFL. If Cook got great blocking those numbers are achievable. I didn't say they were automatic. Please don't put words in my mouth or keyboard. Cook was and is a very important part of our team and it would be nice if he could remain so, but that seems unlikely.
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Re: Dalvin Cook

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:54 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:25 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:12 am

Look at the top 10 RB salaries in the NFL for last year. There’s not a single one of them that anybody in their right mind would say, “Yep, I’d do that deal again.” Every single deal, including Ezekiel Elliott, has turned out bad. Guess where the bottom salary in that list is. You got it ... $5 million. In other words, $1 million over my proposed max. That’s anything but ludicrous.
People keep saying Elliot's deal was bad. Is there a reason? He had a really good season.
It’s not so much that he played poorly, except against the Vikings. It’s that Kellen Moore failed to utilize him. If you’re going to give a running back $102 million over 4 years with $45 million guaranteed, it seems like you should give him more than 18 touches per game. Now he’s got pass-happy Mike McCarthy running the show. McCarthy always talked a big game in Green Bay when it came to running the football but never came through.

It’s the quandary of paying running backs. If you pay them, you need to use them a lot to get the value. But if you use them a lot, you shorten their careers.
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