Looks like Griff is gone

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 38141
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 311

Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by Mothman » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:16 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:49 pm
Mothman wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:37 am


People keep saying this as if it ends the conversation but Cousins has the 5th highest average salary per year among NFL QBs so he's not just getting the going rate for QBs, he's getting the top rate. The 4 QBs ahead of him have all been to the Super Bowl and 3 of them have won it. Paying that kind of price isn't the only way to address the position but since it's the way the Vikes have chosen, it needs to be justified.

Again: the bottom line shouldn't be what the market price is anyway. It should be whether he's actually worth the investment.
Cousins is in the top five because he is the most recent new or extended contract. By the time the next five contracts are extended Cousins will be close to 10th highest paid. However, I will take his 26-6 TD to Int and 107 QBR from last year and winning a playoff game last year as justification for how much we pay him.
I think we're getting off track. His stat line looks nice but I think the more relevant issue in this discussion is the philosophy behind the decision to extend Cousins and how it relates to the team's plan to win a championship.

They won a playoff game with Cousins. That's great but going forward, how does committing another $66+ million to him help them win a Super Bowl and is it consistent with the other moves they're making? As Mike pointed out above, they've renewed an expensive commitment to a central piece of a plan that hasn't worked. Meanwhile, they're in cap hell so what's the new plan? How do they go from this point and get considerably better while paying Cousins this much and again, why pay him so much if they want to hang their hat (or helmet) on the running game?
0 x

User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Pro Bowl Elite Player
Posts: 674
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 163

Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:40 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:10 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:21 am
WR might be our biggest need and I don't think selecting a WR in the first would be a reach unless 5 or more are gone before we pick. Williamson was a huge reach. He did not have the pedigree of a #7 overall draft pick.
I don't agree it is the biggest need per se, but whether choosing one in the 1st makes sense really depends on how the draft plays out to that point. As you point out, the Vikings don't need a reach at either 1st round choice just because Diggs is gone. If the right player is there I'm fine if they take a WR.
I didn't say WR was our biggest need. I said it might be. I think we are better off at CB with Hughes and Hill. Bisi is probably a better #2 at WR than whoever is our #2 at Guard now. I think we are better off at 3T with the myriad of possibilities than we are at WR2. As you say regardless of what is the biggest need we should draft the BPA among those needs.
0 x

User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Pro Bowl Elite Player
Posts: 674
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 163

Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:57 pm

Mothman wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:16 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:49 pm

Cousins is in the top five because he is the most recent new or extended contract. By the time the next five contracts are extended Cousins will be close to 10th highest paid. However, I will take his 26-6 TD to Int and 107 QBR from last year and winning a playoff game last year as justification for how much we pay him.
I think we're getting off track. His stat line looks nice but I think the more relevant issue in this discussion is the philosophy behind the decision to extend Cousins and how it relates to the team's plan to win a championship.

They won a playoff game with Cousins. That's great but going forward, how does committing another $66+ million to him help them win a Super Bowl and is it consistent with the other moves they're making? As Mike pointed out above, they've renewed an expensive commitment to a central piece of a plan that hasn't worked. Meanwhile, they're in cap hell so what's the new plan? How do they go from this point and get considerably better while paying Cousins this much and again, why pay him so much if they want to hang their hat (or helmet) on the running game?
If winning the Championship is the only goal 31 out of 32 plans fail every year. Odds are extremely high that our plans for the title this year will also fail.There's a very good chance the Vikings don't win another championship in my remaining lifetime. Thankfully we got the title from the 69 season or we would have nothing.

Cousins is certainly good enough to win a Championship because QBs not close to his level have won them before. As for why invest in a good QB if you're going to be a running team I think Bob Griese was a very good QB when the Dolphins were going undefeated with maybe the most dominant rushing team ever. Aikmann was quite good when the Cowboys were winning behind Smith. Good QB play is important regardless of running or passing team.
0 x

User avatar
fiestavike
Hall of Fame Inductee
Posts: 4223
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am
x 171

Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by fiestavike » Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:21 pm

Mothman wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:16 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:49 pm

Cousins is in the top five because he is the most recent new or extended contract. By the time the next five contracts are extended Cousins will be close to 10th highest paid. However, I will take his 26-6 TD to Int and 107 QBR from last year and winning a playoff game last year as justification for how much we pay him.
I think we're getting off track. His stat line looks nice but I think the more relevant issue in this discussion is the philosophy behind the decision to extend Cousins and how it relates to the team's plan to win a championship.

They won a playoff game with Cousins. That's great but going forward, how does committing another $66+ million to him help them win a Super Bowl and is it consistent with the other moves they're making? As Mike pointed out above, they've renewed an expensive commitment to a central piece of a plan that hasn't worked. Meanwhile, they're in cap hell so what's the new plan? How do they go from this point and get considerably better while paying Cousins this much and again, why pay him so much if they want to hang their hat (or helmet) on the running game?
Yes. I would reiterate that since the vikings have gone in on cousins, in order to maximize that investment, they need to go all out to build a top 3 OL. That's going to mean making further sacrifices in other areas, but if cousins is our qb, the priority going forward is obvious.
0 x

User avatar
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7959
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 665

Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:05 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:07 pm
MikethePurple wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:31 am
With the Cousins move, they seem to be straddling the fence rather than facing up to the fact that they are in a rebuilding mode. Does anyone actually think that with far less talent on defense and given the Diggs trade, offense, that this team will be better next year? Cousins clearly needs to have a significant supporting cast to be successful and they are taking plenty of those pieces away and expecting things to be different/better than previously? That just seems like a gigantic head scratcher.
Are they straddling the fence though?

One could look at the Cousins deal as a long term commitment to him at QB I guess, but I'm not sure I see it that way. If one assumes that there are no plans to elevate Mannion and given that the Vikings are unlikely to make a move for a different starting QB, Cousins gives them some longer term certainty at the starting QB slot, but I don't think that removes their ability to try to find a franchise QB to sit and learn behind him, be that in this year's draft or even next year's.

Put another way, one of those free agency period moves just scored them another 1st round pick. While most mocks have them dutifully searching for Diggs' replacement with that choice, I could see Spielman leverage his 1st rounders and perhaps some combo of his 2nd/3rds to make a move up in this year's draft for one of the top QBs. Not sure he could swing that or who he might target (my guess would be Herbert or Tua), but that might be enough ammo to make a move like that. Then, with Cousins in tow and expectations set appropriately for the next season, said QB could be brought along at a comfortable pace and developed along with whatever other young talent the Vikings secure this year, be that by draft, in FA, or via further trades.

One important point of note with the Cousins' extension that I think supports this theory is that it isn't all guaranteed. A big chunk of it is, but not all of it. It's not like the Vikings are committing to Cousins for a long time. It might just be "long enough".

This is going to be one of the more interesting drafts for the Vikings in recent memory I think...
They could theoretically draft one of the top quarterbacks, but it's not going to happen. It's just not.

You have to look into what the Wilfs, Spielman and Zimmer have said about Cousins. They believe he IS the franchise quarterback. And don't be so sold on this being a rebuild year. I believe they're going into this season viewing themselves as contenders. Seems ludicrous, but hear me out. They brought in Dom Capers. Just as they brought in Gary Kubiak last year for a reason -- to overhaul the offense -- I believe you're going to see something similar happen on defense. The pickup of Michael Pierce just further confirms my suspicion ...

The Minnesota Vikings will not be a strictly 4-3 team this year.

Because of Zimmer's penchant for drafting athletic, versatile defensive linemen, I believe the Vikings have the personnel to play either 4-3 or 3-4 on defense, and they're one of the few teams who do. Pierce mans the middle in 3-4, but he can also play nose in 4-3. Stephen, Watts, Odenigbo, Johnson, Holmes and others are tweeners in a 4-3 ... not big enough for NT, not quick enough for 3-tech (but Stephen is serviceable in that role), and other than Odenigbo, not really DEs. But in a 3-4 ... they're all well suited for DE.

When you get to the rush linebacker positions, that's where the Vikings really have the potential to shine. Barr was a 3-4 rush LB in college and wreaked havoc. He's perfectly suited for it. And Hunter with his speed, power and athleticism might set a sack record in a rush linebacker role. Now put Kendricks and Wilson in the middle, and you've got your 3-4. But at the same time, all these guys have been playing exclusively 4-3 under Zimmer, so they know how to do that, too.

Obviously that doesn't address the corners, but no other team in the NFL has personnel suited for the front 7 in both schemes. Now you start messing around with how you use Harrison Smith, much like the Steelers did with Troy Polamalu (Capers coached there with Dick LeBeau) and teams might really get befuddled.

All this tells me the draft is going to lean toward a corner, a wideout, or the offensive line. Doubt me all you want, but I said last year after they brought in Kubiak that they would be going for athletic O-linemen who could play in a zone blocking scheme, and that's exactly what they did. I'd bet a paycheck on the Vikings drafting to the three positions I just mentioned.

And with all that, I think Zimmer feels like he's going to surprise the league ... which does not signal "rebuild." It signals retool, both in philosophy and personnel. And if that's what he does, it's anything BUT straddling the fence.

As I've said before, Mike Zimmer has never been afraid to bring in experienced coaches -- even head coaches -- to both mold the team and challenge him. Some didn't work out so well (Norv, Flip) while others were good (Sparano) or downright magic (Shurmur, Kubiak). And the interesting thing about all the guys up to now -- they've all been on the offensive side of the ball. I believe hiring Dom Capers, a 3-4 expert, is Zimmer's way of trying to evolve defensively. And I salute him for it.

Will the Vikings contend this year? No idea. But I won't be surprised if they're at least as good as last year.
2 x
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.

User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 38141
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 311

Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by Mothman » Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:29 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:21 pm
Yes. I would reiterate that since the vikings have gone in on cousins, in order to maximize that investment, they need to go all out to build a top 3 OL. That's going to mean making further sacrifices in other areas, but if cousins is our qb, the priority going forward is obvious.
I think so too and if even if they want to continue leaning heavily on their running game, they're going to need a terrific OL to pull that off too.
0 x

User avatar
fiestavike
Hall of Fame Inductee
Posts: 4223
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am
x 171

Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by fiestavike » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:07 pm

Mothman wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:29 pm
fiestavike wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:21 pm
Yes. I would reiterate that since the vikings have gone in on cousins, in order to maximize that investment, they need to go all out to build a top 3 OL. That's going to mean making further sacrifices in other areas, but if cousins is our qb, the priority going forward is obvious.
I think so too and if even if they want to continue leaning heavily on their running game, they're going to need a terrific OL to pull that off too.
If zimmer is truly this defensive guru, it's time for him to get it done with late picks/ rookie free agents and vet free agents...the early picks and big bucks need to go to o line for a couple years.
1 x

StumpHunter
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1728
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 216

Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by StumpHunter » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:32 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:07 pm
Mothman wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:29 pm


I think so too and if even if they want to continue leaning heavily on their running game, they're going to need a terrific OL to pull that off too.
If zimmer is truly this defensive guru, it's time for him to get it done with late picks/ rookie free agents and vet free agents...the early picks and big bucks need to go to o line for a couple years.
Who is going to decide which free agents we bring in though. Rick doesn't necessarily have a great track record there?

Free agent signings on the Oline since 2011:
Kline- 3 years, 16 million, cut after one year
Remmers - 5 years 30 million, cut after 2 years, one of which was solid at RT, the other was one of the worst RG performances in Vikings history
Reiff- 5 years 59 million, A guy who most fans have wanted gone for the past 2 seasons.
Alex Boone- 4 years, 26.8 million, cut after one year
Andre Smith - 1 year 4.8 million, not extended
Charlie Johnson - 3 years 10 million, he actually made it to the end of his contract.

Reiff is the by far the best of that bunch and everyone wants him gone.

The Vikings have tried to solve the offensive line issue by throwing money at it, but the signings they have made just haven't worked out.
0 x

User avatar
fiestavike
Hall of Fame Inductee
Posts: 4223
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am
x 171

Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by fiestavike » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:44 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:32 pm
fiestavike wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:07 pm


If zimmer is truly this defensive guru, it's time for him to get it done with late picks/ rookie free agents and vet free agents...the early picks and big bucks need to go to o line for a couple years.
Who is going to decide which free agents we bring in though. Rick doesn't necessarily have a great track record there?

Free agent signings on the Oline since 2011:
Kline- 3 years, 16 million, cut after one year
Remmers - 5 years 30 million, cut after 2 years, one of which was solid at RT, the other was one of the worst RG performances in Vikings history
Reiff- 5 years 59 million, A guy who most fans have wanted gone for the past 2 seasons.
Alex Boone- 4 years, 26.8 million, cut after one year
Andre Smith - 1 year 4.8 million, not extended
Charlie Johnson - 3 years 10 million, he actually made it to the end of his contract.

Reiff is the by far the best of that bunch and everyone wants him gone.

The Vikings have tried to solve the offensive line issue by throwing money at it, but the signings they have made just haven't worked out.
Absolutely. It's possible spielman and zimmer dont see it the way it obviously is. And it's possible that even if they do they wont be able to address it competently. Re-signing kirk signals one of three things.

A. A new approach to building this team going forward.

B. An attempt to lower cap in order to improve the odds of winning it all this year or next.

C. A sad, floundering attempt to buy time and stay employed for another year or two.
0 x

User avatar
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 11989
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii
x 288

Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by S197 » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:23 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:28 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:42 am

KC didn't get Mahomes through luck. They had the 27th pick in the draft, had a decent starter already, and identified Mahomes as being a guy they could build around. Luck implies little control over who a team drafts, when in reality, some teams are good at identifying great QBs, while others do not. KC was not more lucky than the Bears in that draft, they were better at identifying a great QB than the Bears.

Stop with this luck garbage. NO, GB, KC, and Seattle have elite QBs because they were better than anyone else at identifying them in the draft or FAs. They didn't pass on signing Brees because they were scared of the injury, they didn't pass on drafting Rodgers because they already had Favre, they didn't settle for mediocrity in Alex Smith when Mahomes was available to trade up and get him, and they didn't pass on Wilson when they had spent big in FAs to get their guy.

We were scared of that injury with Brees, felt DC was good enough, went with Bradford instead of saving our pick in 2017, and passed on Wilson because we already had Ponder.

That is why we are forced to over pay Cousins. Not because of luck, but because of poor decisions.
Not overpaying Cousins one red cent. That is the price of a good NFL QB in today's game.
As for DC he was a talented QB and could have accomplished great things if not for injury.
You are correct that credit should be given to the teams that get the great players, but there is still a luck factor involved. The Patriots drafted Brady in the 6th round. They were smarter than the teams that didn't. However, if they knew he would turn out to be one of if not the greatest QB of all time they would not have risked waiting until the 6th round.
The Patriots are a great example but not for the reason you mention. They had Brady and they still drafted Jimmy G and Brissett. All 3 were starters last year. That’s not luck, that’s a smart way to build a team. What happens if Cousins goes down? We more or less call it a season. Or we could have a backup plan like the Patriots. Or like the Eagles when they won the Super Bowl. Or like the Titans who made it to the playoffs and played major spoiler.

You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take and Rick simply does not take shots. That’s the gripe. He’s not unlucky, he’s a guy who fails to learn from his mistakes. You would think after Favre, Teddy and Bradford all getting injured the Vikings would be the first team stacking their QB bench. To the contrary, we’re one of the worst at it.

I was a little hopeful after we saw how well Keenum did. That maybe the lightbulb would go off. But that doesn’t seem to be the case. Maybe this is the draft he finally proves me wrong but I’m not holding my breath.
1 x

User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Pro Bowl Elite Player
Posts: 674
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 163

Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:32 pm

S197 wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:23 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:28 am

Not overpaying Cousins one red cent. That is the price of a good NFL QB in today's game.
As for DC he was a talented QB and could have accomplished great things if not for injury.
You are correct that credit should be given to the teams that get the great players, but there is still a luck factor involved. The Patriots drafted Brady in the 6th round. They were smarter than the teams that didn't. However, if they knew he would turn out to be one of if not the greatest QB of all time they would not have risked waiting until the 6th round.
The Patriots are a great example but not for the reason you mention. They had Brady and they still drafted Jimmy G and Brissett. All 3 were starters last year. That’s not luck, that’s a smart way to build a team. What happens if Cousins goes down? We more or less call it a season. Or we could have a backup plan like the Patriots. Or like the Eagles when they won the Super Bowl. Or like the Titans who made it to the playoffs and played major spoiler.

You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take and Rick simply does not take shots. That’s the gripe. He’s not unlucky, he’s a guy who fails to learn from his mistakes. You would think after Favre, Teddy and Bradford all getting injured the Vikings would be the first team stacking their QB bench. To the contrary, we’re one of the worst at it.

I was a little hopeful after we saw how well Keenum did. That maybe the lightbulb would go off. But that doesn’t seem to be the case. Maybe this is the draft he finally proves me wrong but I’m not holding my breath.
I'm in agreement with you, but it is It is tough to use one of a teams higher draft picks on a player that isn't likely to play much or at all at first. If a good Value at QB presents itself I hope we pounce. The Patriots drafted a project QB that I liked a lot last year. Jarrett Stidham and it's possible he will be their starting QB this coming season, but I kind of doubt it.
0 x

RandyMoss84
Veteran
Posts: 248
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:12 pm
x 78

Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by RandyMoss84 » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:33 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:32 pm
S197 wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:23 pm


The Patriots are a great example but not for the reason you mention. They had Brady and they still drafted Jimmy G and Brissett. All 3 were starters last year. That’s not luck, that’s a smart way to build a team. What happens if Cousins goes down? We more or less call it a season. Or we could have a backup plan like the Patriots. Or like the Eagles when they won the Super Bowl. Or like the Titans who made it to the playoffs and played major spoiler.

You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take and Rick simply does not take shots. That’s the gripe. He’s not unlucky, he’s a guy who fails to learn from his mistakes. You would think after Favre, Teddy and Bradford all getting injured the Vikings would be the first team stacking their QB bench. To the contrary, we’re one of the worst at it.

I was a little hopeful after we saw how well Keenum did. That maybe the lightbulb would go off. But that doesn’t seem to be the case. Maybe this is the draft he finally proves me wrong but I’m not holding my breath.
I'm in agreement with you, but it is It is tough to use one of a teams higher draft picks on a player that isn't likely to play much or at all at first. If a good Value at QB presents itself I hope we pounce. The Patriots drafted a project QB that I liked a lot last year. Jarrett Stidham and it's possible he will be their starting QB this coming season, but I kind of doubt it.
Patriots just bought back Hoyer again and he might be starting, I do not understand what the Patriots sees in Hoyer, he is terrible
0 x

User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Pro Bowl Elite Player
Posts: 674
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 163

Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:38 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:33 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:32 pm

I'm in agreement with you, but it is It is tough to use one of a teams higher draft picks on a player that isn't likely to play much or at all at first. If a good Value at QB presents itself I hope we pounce. The Patriots drafted a project QB that I liked a lot last year. Jarrett Stidham and it's possible he will be their starting QB this coming season, but I kind of doubt it.
Patriots just bought back Hoyer again and he might be starting, I do not understand what the Patriots sees in Hoyer, he is terrible
I looked at Ourlads Depth chart and it showed Stidham as the starter with Cody Kessler as the backup. I think Hoyer had a brief shining time of playing well, but it was brief.
0 x