Looks like Griff is gone

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Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by TSonn » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:33 pm

I know about Kearse and obviously Diggs, but what did Mac do that people would label him a "malcontent"?
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Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by Mothman » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:41 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:07 pm
Are they straddling the fence though?

One could look at the Cousins deal as a long term commitment to him at QB I guess, but I'm not sure I see it that way. If one assumes that there are no plans to elevate Mannion and given that the Vikings are unlikely to make a move for a different starting QB, Cousins gives them some longer term certainty at the starting QB slot, but I don't think that removes their ability to try to find a franchise QB to sit and learn behind him, be that in this year's draft or even next year's.
It doesn't remove their ability to do that but I think it takes a real leap of faith to believe Rick Spielman would actually take that approach. That hasn't been his MO over the last 12 years.
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Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by VikingLord » Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:00 pm

Mothman wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:41 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:07 pm
Are they straddling the fence though?

One could look at the Cousins deal as a long term commitment to him at QB I guess, but I'm not sure I see it that way. If one assumes that there are no plans to elevate Mannion and given that the Vikings are unlikely to make a move for a different starting QB, Cousins gives them some longer term certainty at the starting QB slot, but I don't think that removes their ability to try to find a franchise QB to sit and learn behind him, be that in this year's draft or even next year's.
It doesn't remove their ability to do that but I think it takes a real leap of faith to believe Rick Spielman would actually take that approach. That hasn't been his MO over the last 12 years.
Spielman might be ready for some "shock and awe" at this point.
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Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by Mothman » Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:41 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:00 pm
Mothman wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:41 pm


It doesn't remove their ability to do that but I think it takes a real leap of faith to believe Rick Spielman would actually take that approach. That hasn't been his MO over the last 12 years.
Spielman might be ready for some "shock and awe" at this point.
It's possible! Maybe we'll see a new Rick Spielman in this draft. :)
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Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by S197 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:43 pm

The "all in" move was when Cousins was first picked up. At that point, most of the pieces were in place, the window was open and it appeared like the Vikings were a QB and a few smaller pieces (guard) away. Cousins contract was essentially a time bomb. It was going to blow the team apart but the hope was the fuse was long enough to get the team a championship before that happened. Now, some refused to believe it. Brez is a master at manipulating the cap! The Vikings are a dream destination for free agents! The players have bought in and believe in Zimmer!

Well, now it turns out you actually do have to pay the piper eventually, Brez or not. The team is in cap hell. Those free agents that would play for pennies because we're a contender aren't showing up. And it turns out a lot of the smoke was actually fire and there were at least a few that weren't content with Zimmer, maybe more than a few.

Facing our new reality, where about half of the defensive starters are gone, we're in the bottom half of cap space, and arguably the biggest weapon on offense has left (argue if you want, but teams weren't doubling Thielen), what does giving Cousins two more years do? Somehow he'll be better without Diggs? Somehow our OL is going to be better with Oli Udoh and Dru Samia?
Cousins is a guy that plays to the level of talent around him, he's not a guy that elevates talent. Our talent pool got a whole lot smaller but somehow we magically get better?

That's where the fence sitting comes into play for me. We are in full rebuild mode. We jettisoned our vets and are putting our eggs in draft picks. Even if we absolutely crush the draft, it's still a year or two before they make any sort of meaningful contribution. Rhodes, Waynes, and Alexander all took a while to get going, it's really rare to hit the ground running in the NFL.

Does anyone believe we're even going to entertain a QB as a potential heir in say the first 5 rounds? After extending Mannion? Because John David Booty was drafted 13 years ago? We know Rick's MO and it's this disjointed way of approaching the team. Trade down for 10+ picks to bring in a lot of competition, except at QB, where there can never be any.

What does Cousins contract cost us next year? Probably Cook. Maybe Harris depending on how that shakes out. Ifeadi if he has the breakout year some are predicting. The number of "hits" Rick needs in the draft keeps going up the longer he hitches himself to Cousins and his boat anchor contract.
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Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:16 pm

Mothman wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:30 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:34 am
You can disagree if you want with how they’re doing things, but to say they’re straddling the fence doesn’t make sense to me.

Why would the Vikings bring in a promising rookie quarterback with the idea that he’ll eventually be the man when they just extended the guy they think IS the man?
I'm not going to speak for Mike but the reason I think "straddling the fence" is an appropriate description is because, to me, it describes the overall approach they're taking (see below).
Obviously reasonable people can disagree about whether Kirk Cousins SHOULD be the man, but it’s hardly a straddle-the-fence move. Cousins’ old contract made him virtually impossible to release, and his extension is pretty much the same. They are putting their eggs in the Cousins basket, which is the polar opposite of straddling the fence.
That's one way to look at it. Extending Cousins was definitely a decisive move but I look at it this way: they've got a "leg" on one side of the fence trying to maintain continuity with Kirk, Mike and Rick and the other "leg" re-shaping the team. I think they recognize the need for significant changes but not the degree of change necessary. They're trying to stick with the comfortable and familiar and achieve new results. To me, that translates to fence-straddling. The Vikes remind me of the Bears in the latter half of the Lovie Smith era, overpaying a QB who has his moments but isn't worth the price, making changes to the coaching staff and roster every year and playing competitive football but clinging to familiar leadership and a strategy that just wasn't ever going to net them the desired result.

You're correct, Cousins' old contract made him impossible to release but they could have taken their lumps with it this year and then moved on with a young QB. They have the potential ammo to get one in this draft but re-signing Cousins makes that unlikely.
Finally, you can rail on the current leadership all you want, but the fact remains ... the Wills are true believers in Spielman and Zimmer. They’re not going anywhere. So we can all sit here and pine for someone else, or we can face the reality that we’re not going to see a regime change anytime soon.
I faced that reality a long time ago. I'm simply criticizing it. The Vikings haven't been to a Super Bowl in over 40 years and the Wilfs plan to get there is to stick with Spielman, Zimmer and Cousins, who have little to nothing on their NFL resumés to suggest they're the people to make that happen. Not only is current leadership not going anywhere, the team probably isn't either. I think we can safely expect to see more of what we've seen for the last 8 years.

This offseason was the perfect time to move on. The Wilfs decided to double down. Yes, that's reality but it's frustrating and disappointing.
PHP I usually agree with you, but here I think Mothman has it right with the exception of insinuating that Cousins isn't worth his price. We are making some moves that appear to be going for it and others that appear to be rebuilding. However, the restructure of Hunter is very much a going for it move. If we do anything else like that we are officially going for it and not rebuilding.
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Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:22 pm

S197 wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:43 pm
The "all in" move was when Cousins was first picked up. At that point, most of the pieces were in place, the window was open and it appeared like the Vikings were a QB and a few smaller pieces (guard) away. Cousins contract was essentially a time bomb. It was going to blow the team apart but the hope was the fuse was long enough to get the team a championship before that happened. Now, some refused to believe it. Brez is a master at manipulating the cap! The Vikings are a dream destination for free agents! The players have bought in and believe in Zimmer!

Well, now it turns out you actually do have to pay the piper eventually, Brez or not. The team is in cap hell. Those free agents that would play for pennies because we're a contender aren't showing up. And it turns out a lot of the smoke was actually fire and there were at least a few that weren't content with Zimmer, maybe more than a few.

Facing our new reality, where about half of the defensive starters are gone, we're in the bottom half of cap space, and arguably the biggest weapon on offense has left (argue if you want, but teams weren't doubling Thielen), what does giving Cousins two more years do? Somehow he'll be better without Diggs? Somehow our OL is going to be better with Oli Udoh and Dru Samia?
Cousins is a guy that plays to the level of talent around him, he's not a guy that elevates talent. Our talent pool got a whole lot smaller but somehow we magically get better?

That's where the fence sitting comes into play for me. We are in full rebuild mode. We jettisoned our vets and are putting our eggs in draft picks. Even if we absolutely crush the draft, it's still a year or two before they make any sort of meaningful contribution. Rhodes, Waynes, and Alexander all took a while to get going, it's really rare to hit the ground running in the NFL.

Does anyone believe we're even going to entertain a QB as a potential heir in say the first 5 rounds? After extending Mannion? Because John David Booty was drafted 13 years ago? We know Rick's MO and it's this disjointed way of approaching the team. Trade down for 10+ picks to bring in a lot of competition, except at QB, where there can never be any.

What does Cousins contract cost us next year? Probably Cook. Maybe Harris depending on how that shakes out. Ifeadi if he has the breakout year some are predicting. The number of "hits" Rick needs in the draft keeps going up the longer he hitches himself to Cousins and his boat anchor contract.
Great post unitl the final three words. His contract is just what decent QBs get these days so it can't be considered an anchor IMO.
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Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by VikingLord » Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:56 am

S197 wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:43 pm
Somehow our OL is going to be better with Oli Udoh and Dru Samia?
I don't know about Samia, but I believe Udoh is going to surprise a lot of people and sooner rather than later.
S197 wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:43 pm
Does anyone believe we're even going to entertain a QB as a potential heir in say the first 5 rounds? After extending Mannion? Because John David Booty was drafted 13 years ago? We know Rick's MO and it's this disjointed way of approaching the team.
I think its possible. Maybe not likely, but possible. Who knows? The draft can evolve in surprising ways and the Diggs' trade gives the Vikings some options they might not have had otherwise.

S197 wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:43 pm
The number of "hits" Rick needs in the draft keeps going up the longer he hitches himself to Cousins and his boat anchor contract.
I think the Cousins deal is market rate for a QB of his stature and performance. It in effect adds another guaranteed year to the prior deal which might not be a bad thing.

I get where you're coming from, but for me the bottom line is the defense woefully underperformed last year and needed a good shakeup. While there are holes to fill now, the Vikings have some cap space and opportunities to fill them and reload for the future, hopefully getting better value for their money in the process. On offense, well, losing Diggs hurts from a production standpoint but might look like a prudent move ala the trade of Sidney Rice. Maybe the Vikings have some info we don't that will reveal itself over time and make that trade look better in retrospect. Not to mention Spielman got a haul for a guy taken in Round 5.

The sky isn't falling. While some are lukewarm about the current leadership of the team (a feeling I share), at least they are realizing the jig is up for their prior approach and are now making the hard choices and changes the team needs to be able to compete in the near future. While I can't say that will produce the outcome we all want, which is a Superbowl win, it does show they understand the reality of their current situation and are adjusting accordingly. Maybe this time they'll get a few lucky breaks and the Vikings transform into something like what the 49ers became this year.
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Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:01 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:16 pm
Mothman wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:30 pm


I'm not going to speak for Mike but the reason I think "straddling the fence" is an appropriate description is because, to me, it describes the overall approach they're taking (see below).



That's one way to look at it. Extending Cousins was definitely a decisive move but I look at it this way: they've got a "leg" on one side of the fence trying to maintain continuity with Kirk, Mike and Rick and the other "leg" re-shaping the team. I think they recognize the need for significant changes but not the degree of change necessary. They're trying to stick with the comfortable and familiar and achieve new results. To me, that translates to fence-straddling. The Vikes remind me of the Bears in the latter half of the Lovie Smith era, overpaying a QB who has his moments but isn't worth the price, making changes to the coaching staff and roster every year and playing competitive football but clinging to familiar leadership and a strategy that just wasn't ever going to net them the desired result.

You're correct, Cousins' old contract made him impossible to release but they could have taken their lumps with it this year and then moved on with a young QB. They have the potential ammo to get one in this draft but re-signing Cousins makes that unlikely.



I faced that reality a long time ago. I'm simply criticizing it. The Vikings haven't been to a Super Bowl in over 40 years and the Wilfs plan to get there is to stick with Spielman, Zimmer and Cousins, who have little to nothing on their NFL resumés to suggest they're the people to make that happen. Not only is current leadership not going anywhere, the team probably isn't either. I think we can safely expect to see more of what we've seen for the last 8 years.

This offseason was the perfect time to move on. The Wilfs decided to double down. Yes, that's reality but it's frustrating and disappointing.
PHP I usually agree with you, but here I think Mothman has it right with the exception of insinuating that Cousins isn't worth his price. We are making some moves that appear to be going for it and others that appear to be rebuilding. However, the restructure of Hunter is very much a going for it move. If we do anything else like that we are officially going for it and not rebuilding.
Do you mean kapp? lol
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Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:05 am

VikingLord wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:56 am
S197 wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:43 pm
Somehow our OL is going to be better with Oli Udoh and Dru Samia?
I don't know about Samia, but I believe Udoh is going to surprise a lot of people and sooner rather than later.
S197 wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:43 pm
Does anyone believe we're even going to entertain a QB as a potential heir in say the first 5 rounds? After extending Mannion? Because John David Booty was drafted 13 years ago? We know Rick's MO and it's this disjointed way of approaching the team.
I think its possible. Maybe not likely, but possible. Who knows? The draft can evolve in surprising ways and the Diggs' trade gives the Vikings some options they might not have had otherwise.

S197 wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:43 pm
The number of "hits" Rick needs in the draft keeps going up the longer he hitches himself to Cousins and his boat anchor contract.
I think the Cousins deal is market rate for a QB of his stature and performance. It in effect adds another guaranteed year to the prior deal which might not be a bad thing.

I get where you're coming from, but for me the bottom line is the defense woefully underperformed last year and needed a good shakeup. While there are holes to fill now, the Vikings have some cap space and opportunities to fill them and reload for the future, hopefully getting better value for their money in the process. On offense, well, losing Diggs hurts from a production standpoint but might look like a prudent move ala the trade of Sidney Rice. Maybe the Vikings have some info we don't that will reveal itself over time and make that trade look better in retrospect. Not to mention Spielman got a haul for a guy taken in Round 5.

The sky isn't falling. While some are lukewarm about the current leadership of the team (a feeling I share), at least they are realizing the jig is up for their prior approach and are now making the hard choices and changes the team needs to be able to compete in the near future. While I can't say that will produce the outcome we all want, which is a Superbowl win, it does show they understand the reality of their current situation and are adjusting accordingly. Maybe this time they'll get a few lucky breaks and the Vikings transform into something like what the 49ers became this year.
Very good post. I think you mean the trade of Harvin? Rice left in free agency. But I agree the sky definitely isn’t falling and I definitely think they have a plan. There are still plenty of solid free agents out there that can contribute and plenty of talent in this draft. Spielman needs to make some good picks no doubt but I think I’m more excited for this offseason and upcoming draft than I ever have been before. I would currently give our offseason a B. Many media and fans would probably disagree because they just see the surface of things like losing diggs but we have an opportunity to pull a boat load of talent from not only this draft but 2021 as well. And still have a solid core of good players in place
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Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by VikingLord » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:11 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:05 am
I think you mean the trade of Harvin? Rice left in free agency.
Yeah, I meant Harvin. That didn't turn out so bad even though it didn't seem to make sense at the time.

I will be upset if Spielman just reaches for a WR with the 1st they got in the trade, though, ala what the Vikings did after trading Moss.
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Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:16 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:01 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:16 pm

PHP I usually agree with you, but here I think Mothman has it right with the exception of insinuating that Cousins isn't worth his price. We are making some moves that appear to be going for it and others that appear to be rebuilding. However, the restructure of Hunter is very much a going for it move. If we do anything else like that we are officially going for it and not rebuilding.
Do you mean kapp? lol
Oops. I didn't look close enough. Haven't you been commenting like we weren't straddling the fence. I thought we were very much straddling the fence, but now with the Hunter restructure were starting to look more like all in for now.
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Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:19 am

VikingLord wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:11 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:05 am
I think you mean the trade of Harvin? Rice left in free agency.
Yeah, I meant Harvin. That didn't turn out so bad even though it didn't seem to make sense at the time.

I will be upset if Spielman just reaches for a WR with the 1st they got in the trade, though, ala what the Vikings did after trading Moss.
Yeah trading Harvin actually gave us Rhodes. Even though Rhodes eventually got cut like many players do, he was still a stud corner for us for some years.
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Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:21 am

VikingLord wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:11 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:05 am
I think you mean the trade of Harvin? Rice left in free agency.
Yeah, I meant Harvin. That didn't turn out so bad even though it didn't seem to make sense at the time.

I will be upset if Spielman just reaches for a WR with the 1st they got in the trade, though, ala what the Vikings did after trading Moss.
WR might be our biggest need and I don't think selecting a WR in the first would be a reach unless 5 or more are gone before we pick. Williamson was a huge reach. He did not have the pedigree of a #7 overall draft pick.
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Re: Looks like Griff is gone

Post by Mothman » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:50 am

Regarding Cousins: in my view, market price and "worth the price" aren't necessarily the same thing.
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