Diggs Traded

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Re: Diggs Traded

Post by fiestavike » Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:39 pm

If the last couple years are an indication, one thing we know about Cousins is that he is not going to throw many 50-50 balls. He's looking for 80-20 balls and that cost Diggs an awful lot of production. Having a qb willing to take those shots is going to help Diggs overall production, but more important for the vikings going forward is to recognize what we traits are going to be most important. Obviously, scheming guys open is very effective with kirk, but his accuracy/risk aversion reduces the value of jump ball guys, guys who dont get great separation etc. Size can be sacrificed for speed and quickness when it comes to wrs cousins can get the most out of. Likewise, route running will be more important than ball skills and contested catches.
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Re: Diggs Traded

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:03 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:39 pm
If the last couple years are an indication, one thing we know about Cousins is that he is not going to throw many 50-50 balls. He's looking for 80-20 balls and that cost Diggs an awful lot of production. Having a qb willing to take those shots is going to help Diggs overall production, but more important for the vikings going forward is to recognize what we traits are going to be most important. Obviously, scheming guys open is very effective with kirk, but his accuracy/risk aversion reduces the value of jump ball guys, guys who dont get great separation etc. Size can be sacrificed for speed and quickness when it comes to wrs cousins can get the most out of. Likewise, route running will be more important than ball skills and contested catches.
Interesting points. However, when he declines to throw the jump ball he has the following options.
1 If time allows find an open receiver
2 Run
3 throw it away
4 take a sack.

1 is clearly the best option if he truly has time, if he doesn't it can lead to 4
2 is a chance to make a positive play, but can lead to fumbles and injuries.
3 is a loss of down, but can avoid fumbles, ints, and 4
4 can still lead to fumbles and injuries and also guaranties loss of down and yardage.

Which option Cousins or any QB chooses can greatly affect the outcomes of football games and that is why they get paid the big bucks to make hopefully the right choice.
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Re: Diggs Traded

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:10 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:39 pm
If the last couple years are an indication, one thing we know about Cousins is that he is not going to throw many 50-50 balls. He's looking for 80-20 balls and that cost Diggs an awful lot of production. Having a qb willing to take those shots is going to help Diggs overall production, but more important for the vikings going forward is to recognize what we traits are going to be most important. Obviously, scheming guys open is very effective with kirk, but his accuracy/risk aversion reduces the value of jump ball guys, guys who dont get great separation etc. Size can be sacrificed for speed and quickness when it comes to wrs cousins can get the most out of. Likewise, route running will be more important than ball skills and contested catches.
Good points.

I'd say the only exception for Kirk is when he's behind late. Then we've seen him throw some 50-50 balls, pretty much out of necessity. But for the most part, he plays it safe. Which is probably why Zimmer likes him so much.
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Re: Diggs Traded

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:18 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:03 pm
fiestavike wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:39 pm
If the last couple years are an indication, one thing we know about Cousins is that he is not going to throw many 50-50 balls. He's looking for 80-20 balls and that cost Diggs an awful lot of production. Having a qb willing to take those shots is going to help Diggs overall production, but more important for the vikings going forward is to recognize what we traits are going to be most important. Obviously, scheming guys open is very effective with kirk, but his accuracy/risk aversion reduces the value of jump ball guys, guys who dont get great separation etc. Size can be sacrificed for speed and quickness when it comes to wrs cousins can get the most out of. Likewise, route running will be more important than ball skills and contested catches.
Interesting points. However, when he declines to throw the jump ball he has the following options.
1 If time allows find an open receiver
2 Run
3 throw it away
4 take a sack.

1 is clearly the best option if he truly has time, if he doesn't it can lead to 4
2 is a chance to make a positive play, but can lead to fumbles and injuries.
3 is a loss of down, but can avoid fumbles, ints, and 4
4 can still lead to fumbles and injuries and also guaranties loss of down and yardage.

Which option Cousins or any QB chooses can greatly affect the outcomes of football games and that is why they get paid the big bucks to make hopefully the right choice.
Interesting post, VV.

Coming out of college, the biggest knock on Cousins was his inability to see and anticipate escape lanes. I've gone back read a bunch of old scouting reports, and all of them said the same thing. Smart, goes through his progressions, strong enough arm but doesn't spin it well enough to be called a "big arm," and the inability to understand where his leverage is when he needs to escape the rush. And you still see it now. It's as if the rush surprises him, and he's deciding at the last split second how he's going to try to escape.

When you watch guys like Wilson, Mahomes, Watson and Jackson, even Teddy when he was here, it's almost as if they know long before they have to escape the pocket where they're going to go ... probably because they DO know. They understand pressure and escape routes well enough to know where the rush is going to come from, and where the least resistance to escape is going to be. Cousins just can't do it.

That's why, I think, he looks a lot less athletic than he is. When he throws on planned rollouts or on boot action, his footwork is really smooth and he looks like an athlete. But when he's forced out of the pocket, it's a Chinese fire drill. His feet get choppy, and you see his eyes looking at the rush around him instead of staying downfield. Almost like, "Oh sh!t, I wasn't expecting pressure!"

He just doesn't have that innate ability to escape. Consequently, the Vikings have to scheme a lot more for him than they might other quarterbacks.
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Re: Diggs Traded

Post by fiestavike » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:03 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:03 pm
fiestavike wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:39 pm
If the last couple years are an indication, one thing we know about Cousins is that he is not going to throw many 50-50 balls. He's looking for 80-20 balls and that cost Diggs an awful lot of production. Having a qb willing to take those shots is going to help Diggs overall production, but more important for the vikings going forward is to recognize what we traits are going to be most important. Obviously, scheming guys open is very effective with kirk, but his accuracy/risk aversion reduces the value of jump ball guys, guys who dont get great separation etc. Size can be sacrificed for speed and quickness when it comes to wrs cousins can get the most out of. Likewise, route running will be more important than ball skills and contested catches.
Interesting points. However, when he declines to throw the jump ball he has the following options.
1 If time allows find an open receiver
2 Run
3 throw it away
4 take a sack.

1 is clearly the best option if he truly has time, if he doesn't it can lead to 4
2 is a chance to make a positive play, but can lead to fumbles and injuries.
3 is a loss of down, but can avoid fumbles, ints, and 4
4 can still lead to fumbles and injuries and also guaranties loss of down and yardage.

Which option Cousins or any QB chooses can greatly affect the outcomes of football games and that is why they get paid the big bucks to make hopefully the right choice.
Good thoughts. I didnt intend this as a criticism of cousins, just hoping that in recognizing his traits and tendencies we should try to build around those in a way that makes a coherent plan.
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Re: Diggs Traded

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:16 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:03 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:03 pm

Interesting points. However, when he declines to throw the jump ball he has the following options.
1 If time allows find an open receiver
2 Run
3 throw it away
4 take a sack.

1 is clearly the best option if he truly has time, if he doesn't it can lead to 4
2 is a chance to make a positive play, but can lead to fumbles and injuries.
3 is a loss of down, but can avoid fumbles, ints, and 4
4 can still lead to fumbles and injuries and also guaranties loss of down and yardage.

Which option Cousins or any QB chooses can greatly affect the outcomes of football games and that is why they get paid the big bucks to make hopefully the right choice.
Good thoughts. I didnt intend this as a criticism of cousins, just hoping that in recognizing his traits and tendencies we should try to build around those in a way that makes a coherent plan.
I didn't think it was criticism. I just took your thoughts a little further.
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Re: Diggs Traded

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:20 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:18 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:03 pm

Interesting points. However, when he declines to throw the jump ball he has the following options.
1 If time allows find an open receiver
2 Run
3 throw it away
4 take a sack.

1 is clearly the best option if he truly has time, if he doesn't it can lead to 4
2 is a chance to make a positive play, but can lead to fumbles and injuries.
3 is a loss of down, but can avoid fumbles, ints, and 4
4 can still lead to fumbles and injuries and also guaranties loss of down and yardage.

Which option Cousins or any QB chooses can greatly affect the outcomes of football games and that is why they get paid the big bucks to make hopefully the right choice.
Interesting post, VV.

Coming out of college, the biggest knock on Cousins was his inability to see and anticipate escape lanes. I've gone back read a bunch of old scouting reports, and all of them said the same thing. Smart, goes through his progressions, strong enough arm but doesn't spin it well enough to be called a "big arm," and the inability to understand where his leverage is when he needs to escape the rush. And you still see it now. It's as if the rush surprises him, and he's deciding at the last split second how he's going to try to escape.

When you watch guys like Wilson, Mahomes, Watson and Jackson, even Teddy when he was here, it's almost as if they know long before they have to escape the pocket where they're going to go ... probably because they DO know. They understand pressure and escape routes well enough to know where the rush is going to come from, and where the least resistance to escape is going to be. Cousins just can't do it.

That's why, I think, he looks a lot less athletic than he is. When he throws on planned rollouts or on boot action, his footwork is really smooth and he looks like an athlete. But when he's forced out of the pocket, it's a Chinese fire drill. His feet get choppy, and you see his eyes looking at the rush around him instead of staying downfield. Almost like, "Oh sh!t, I wasn't expecting pressure!"

He just doesn't have that innate ability to escape. Consequently, the Vikings have to scheme a lot more for him than they might other quarterbacks.
Every player that ever played has strengths and weaknesses. Cousins isn't a great running QB, but like you say he isn't a statue either. IMO the whole package good and bad is pretty good. Glad to have him as our QB even at the large salary because he controls what happens.
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Re: Diggs Traded

Post by 808vikingsfan » Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:33 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:03 pm
fiestavike wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:39 pm
If the last couple years are an indication, one thing we know about Cousins is that he is not going to throw many 50-50 balls. He's looking for 80-20 balls and that cost Diggs an awful lot of production. Having a qb willing to take those shots is going to help Diggs overall production, but more important for the vikings going forward is to recognize what we traits are going to be most important. Obviously, scheming guys open is very effective with kirk, but his accuracy/risk aversion reduces the value of jump ball guys, guys who dont get great separation etc. Size can be sacrificed for speed and quickness when it comes to wrs cousins can get the most out of. Likewise, route running will be more important than ball skills and contested catches.
Interesting points. However, when he declines to throw the jump ball he has the following options.
1 If time allows find an open receiver
2 Run
3 throw it away
4 take a sack.

1 is clearly the best option if he truly has time, if he doesn't it can lead to 4
2 is a chance to make a positive play, but can lead to fumbles and injuries.
3 is a loss of down, but can avoid fumbles, ints, and 4
4 can still lead to fumbles and injuries and also guaranties loss of down and yardage.

Which option Cousins or any QB chooses can greatly affect the outcomes of football games and that is why they get paid the big bucks to make hopefully the right choice.
We need a QB that can do option 5, feel the pocket, extend the play, give his receivers time to get open.
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Re: Diggs Traded

Post by 808vikingsfan » Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:40 pm

808vikingsfan wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:33 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:03 pm

Interesting points. However, when he declines to throw the jump ball he has the following options.
1 If time allows find an open receiver
2 Run
3 throw it away
4 take a sack.

1 is clearly the best option if he truly has time, if he doesn't it can lead to 4
2 is a chance to make a positive play, but can lead to fumbles and injuries.
3 is a loss of down, but can avoid fumbles, ints, and 4
4 can still lead to fumbles and injuries and also guaranties loss of down and yardage.

Which option Cousins or any QB chooses can greatly affect the outcomes of football games and that is why they get paid the big bucks to make hopefully the right choice.
Vikings need a QB that can do option 5, feel the pocket, extend the play, give his receivers time to get open.
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Re: Diggs Traded

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:42 pm

808vikingsfan wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:33 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:03 pm

Interesting points. However, when he declines to throw the jump ball he has the following options.
1 If time allows find an open receiver
2 Run
3 throw it away
4 take a sack.

1 is clearly the best option if he truly has time, if he doesn't it can lead to 4
2 is a chance to make a positive play, but can lead to fumbles and injuries.
3 is a loss of down, but can avoid fumbles, ints, and 4
4 can still lead to fumbles and injuries and also guaranties loss of down and yardage.

Which option Cousins or any QB chooses can greatly affect the outcomes of football games and that is why they get paid the big bucks to make hopefully the right choice.
We need a QB that can do option 5, feel the pocket, extend the play, give his receivers time to get open. It's the difference between winning an losing, no matter how good of a D or OL you have.
So you want Case back. He does 5 about as good as any QB in the NFL, but for some reason he hasn't had any success since leaving the Vikings.
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Re: Diggs Traded

Post by 808vikingsfan » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:16 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:42 pm
808vikingsfan wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:33 pm


We need a QB that can do option 5, feel the pocket, extend the play, give his receivers time to get open. It's the difference between winning an losing, no matter how good of a D or OL you have.
So you want Case back. He does 5 about as good as any QB in the NFL, but for some reason he hasn't had any success since leaving the Vikings.
I don't care who the Vikings have at QB, but he needs to have pocket presence and be able to extend plays. Helps the OL and receivers tenfold.

A top 5 paid QB should at least be comfortable climbing the pocket. Kirk isn't.
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Re: Diggs Traded

Post by RandyMoss84 » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:23 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:42 pm
808vikingsfan wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:33 pm


We need a QB that can do option 5, feel the pocket, extend the play, give his receivers time to get open. It's the difference between winning an losing, no matter how good of a D or OL you have.
So you want Case back. He does 5 about as good as any QB in the NFL, but for some reason he hasn't had any success since leaving the Vikings.
That is because Case is a back up
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Re: Diggs Traded

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:23 pm

808vikingsfan wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:16 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:42 pm

So you want Case back. He does 5 about as good as any QB in the NFL, but for some reason he hasn't had any success since leaving the Vikings.
I don't care who the Vikings have at QB, but he needs to have pocket presence and be able to extend plays. Helps the OL and receivers tenfold.

A top 5 paid QB should at least be comfortable climbing the pocket. Kirk isn't.
Whatever he did he did it well enough to be ranked one of the best QBs in the league. Don't worry about his top 5 pay. That will drop to around 10 before his contract is up.
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Re: Diggs Traded

Post by VikingsVictorious » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:26 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:23 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:42 pm

So you want Case back. He does 5 about as good as any QB in the NFL, but for some reason he hasn't had any success since leaving the Vikings.
That is because Case is a back up
He got demoted to backup twice. He was given every opportunity to be a starter. I loved the great season Case gave us, but he was bailed out by Diggs and Thielen a lot. That said he was incredible with extending plays until he could make the pass. That was a perfect fit for the putrid blocking we gave him that year.
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Re: Diggs Traded

Post by Frozen Rope » Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:51 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:23 pm
808vikingsfan wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:16 pm


I don't care who the Vikings have at QB, but he needs to have pocket presence and be able to extend plays. Helps the OL and receivers tenfold.

A top 5 paid QB should at least be comfortable climbing the pocket. Kirk isn't.
Whatever he did he did it well enough to be ranked one of the best QBs in the league. Don't worry about his top 5 pay. That will drop to around 10 before his contract is up.
You all make good points. I would add one thing. Belechek knew Brady’s strengths and weaknesses. One if the most immobile QB’s in the game, he always had a great offensive line that gave him time to throw. He would have had a much different career if he didn’t have the coach he had. I’m hoping that Rick signs some good free agents or gets lucky in the draft because if the left side of that OL doesn’t change, we’re an average team at best. Efflan and Reiff need to be cut or traded. Sorry to see Kline go
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