What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

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YikesVikes
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by YikesVikes » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:50 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:02 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:23 pm


Based on being drafted 9TH OVERALL, that's a bust.
That seems a little subjective. While I understand your point, I can't agree with it, at least not without some context.

Barr was drafted in 2014, 9th overall as you point out. So let's see who was drafted after him in the 1st round (I'll limit it to the 1st round as those are players the remaining NFL teams felt merited their selection and are ones the Vikings could have drafted instead of Barr).

For reference, the list of players can be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_NFL_Draft

A couple of names jump off the list:

- Odell Beckham to the Giants at #12
- Aaron Donald to the Rams at #13
- Kyle Fuller to the Bears at #14
- Ryan Shazier to the Steelers at #15
- CJ Mosely to the Ravens at #17


Just for context, of the players taken before the 9th pick in 2014, I'd say these stood out over time:

- Jadeveon Clowney to the Texans at #1
- Khalil Mack to the Raiders at #5

As for the remaining players drafted in the 1st round in 2014, I can't say any of them have stood out over their careers. Some had a good season or two, but most have been largely average NFL players, and some became outright busts.

Where would I put Barr in the context of his peers from the 1st round of the 2014 draft?

I'd probably say he's in the pool of the better players in the 1st round of that draft, in the notable group that includes Ryan Shazier or CJ Mosely or Kyle Fuller. He's not in the same league as Beckham, Donald, Mack or Clowney, all of whom have had a large impact on their teams.

Does that make him a bust? Does being one of the more impactful players from your draft round and year without being among the most impactful players make someone a failed pick?

I guess that's something that is more in the eyes of the beholder, but in my view a bust is someone who literally can't stay in the league past their rookie deal and makes no positive impact on the team that drafted him.

IIRC, Barr was viewed as a somewhat risky pick when he came out. He had good size and speed, but his college production didn't match his physical talents and I think that hurt his draft stock a bit. From what I can tell, those concerns were valid and translated to his performance as a pro. He's definitely capable of impacting games. He's just inconsistent in terms of how and when he does it. Some of that could be scheme as we don't know what Zimmer is asking him to do, but Barr himself seems to vary quite a bit in terms of what he does week-to-week during the season.

I still would say he's far from a bust in relative terms. In absolute terms, I can see an argument for claiming that, but I still wouldn't agree with it because he's not a failed player.
Totally agree that it is going by my definition. He is not out of the league but he is highly overpaid.
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by fiestavike » Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:25 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:50 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:02 pm


That seems a little subjective. While I understand your point, I can't agree with it, at least not without some context.

Barr was drafted in 2014, 9th overall as you point out. So let's see who was drafted after him in the 1st round (I'll limit it to the 1st round as those are players the remaining NFL teams felt merited their selection and are ones the Vikings could have drafted instead of Barr).

For reference, the list of players can be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_NFL_Draft

A couple of names jump off the list:

- Odell Beckham to the Giants at #12
- Aaron Donald to the Rams at #13
- Kyle Fuller to the Bears at #14
- Ryan Shazier to the Steelers at #15
- CJ Mosely to the Ravens at #17


Just for context, of the players taken before the 9th pick in 2014, I'd say these stood out over time:

- Jadeveon Clowney to the Texans at #1
- Khalil Mack to the Raiders at #5

As for the remaining players drafted in the 1st round in 2014, I can't say any of them have stood out over their careers. Some had a good season or two, but most have been largely average NFL players, and some became outright busts.

Where would I put Barr in the context of his peers from the 1st round of the 2014 draft?

I'd probably say he's in the pool of the better players in the 1st round of that draft, in the notable group that includes Ryan Shazier or CJ Mosely or Kyle Fuller. He's not in the same league as Beckham, Donald, Mack or Clowney, all of whom have had a large impact on their teams.

Does that make him a bust? Does being one of the more impactful players from your draft round and year without being among the most impactful players make someone a failed pick?

I guess that's something that is more in the eyes of the beholder, but in my view a bust is someone who literally can't stay in the league past their rookie deal and makes no positive impact on the team that drafted him.

IIRC, Barr was viewed as a somewhat risky pick when he came out. He had good size and speed, but his college production didn't match his physical talents and I think that hurt his draft stock a bit. From what I can tell, those concerns were valid and translated to his performance as a pro. He's definitely capable of impacting games. He's just inconsistent in terms of how and when he does it. Some of that could be scheme as we don't know what Zimmer is asking him to do, but Barr himself seems to vary quite a bit in terms of what he does week-to-week during the season.

I still would say he's far from a bust in relative terms. In absolute terms, I can see an argument for claiming that, but I still wouldn't agree with it because he's not a failed player.
Totally agree that it is going by my definition. He is not out of the league but he is highly overpaid.
The vikings need more nasty on defense. Who's got that fire and nasty streak on the defensive side of the ball? I don't have a name for you. That's a problem. Minnesota nice isn't going to cut it. The difference between SF and MIN was the difference between a bully and a timid kid in a fight.

Trae Waynes and Anthony Barr are both players who would be better if they were meaner.

As far as what to learn from the Chiefs, if there is a chance to trade up and grab a top tier franchise QB, DO IT!
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Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by VikingLord » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:07 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:25 pm
The vikings need more nasty on defense. Who's got that fire and nasty streak on the defensive side of the ball? I don't have a name for you. That's a problem. Minnesota nice isn't going to cut it. The difference between SF and MIN was the difference between a bully and a timid kid in a fight.

Trae Waynes and Anthony Barr are both players who would be better if they were meaner.

As far as what to learn from the Chiefs, if there is a chance to trade up and grab a top tier franchise QB, DO IT!
It could be nasty. It could be the 49ers were just healthy and rested and playing at home.

Or it could be that as the king goes, so goes the kingdom. I don't think Zimmer wants his players to play "nasty". He wants them to play in the context of his system under the theory that if his system keeps the ball in front of his defense and forces the opposing offense to run a lot of plays, his defense will either get off the field eventually or force the offense into mistakes. Nasty to me implies taking things to the offense and taking chances. Those are not things I believe describes Zimmer's defense overall, nor does it describe the players who play in that defense. So I think you can replace the players, but if the king (in this case, the coach) says play a certain way, the new guys will largely resemble the old guys at the end of the day.
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