What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

YikesVikes
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1178
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:04 am
x 126

Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by YikesVikes » Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:03 pm

CharVike wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:28 pm
StpViking wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:52 am
My personal opinion is that it's time the Vikings organization give Colin Kaepernick a call. Mahomes and Kaepernick basically have the same skill sets. The days of the immobile QB that just sits in the pocket waiting for someone to get open is over with. I think Cousins and his agent understand that if the Vikings do not extend his contract, he'll probably be signed some where as a backup. His style of Quarterbacking is over with.

On the issue of the national anthem. I personally don't care. If I can afford to go to the games, when the national anthem is playing. I'm usually buying something to eat. When they force you to hear the national anthem on TV, I'm usually switching channels because the singers take too long to finish. There are more ways to show how much you love the country than just being a sheep and following what everyone else does.
We have had many mobile QBs and guess what happened. We had Randall Cunningham who was far superior at movement than Mahomes and we couldn't get to the show. His problem was he had bad accuracy and was a one read guy. We had Culpepper who had great movement but IMO wasn't a very good passer. He was shut out in the champ game because he throwing was off. Plus he had two HOF WRs. I don't agree that Kap is equal to Mahomes. Mahomes is a dam good passer of the football. Kap has limited passing ability and that's why he's not in the NFL. Jimmy G just made the Super Bowl and I wouldn't call him a mobile guy. Lamar Jackson who was the MVP couldn't put up enough points in a home playoff loss. That mobility didn't help much. His ability to pass that day was off which made scoring difficult. Mahomes is the Super Bowl winner but that entire team played a great game. They ran the ball effectively. They also played some D. Rodgers is a pocket passer and made it to the champ game. I doubt they would have beat that 49er team even if he was a great runner of the football. Their D played like crap. Bottom line a team like the Packers need to dump Rodgers because those type of QBs are no longer any good in the NFL. I don't agree with that at all. Give me a great passer over a great runner at that position. Keep this in mind a guy like Jackson eventually will take a shot while running and then turn out the lights. Typically teams don't want their QBs taking big hits. Bring back the wish bone if that's the case.
You want to point out that Culpeppers best year was without MOss?
0 x

User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 38141
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 313

Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by Mothman » Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:44 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:31 pm
KC had no idea Mahomes was going to be what he would be today and neither did anyone else.Think about it. If you are any of the 32 NFL GMs (Even BB) and you KNOW a guy is going to be the next king at QB what do you do? You trade it all to pick #1. TRADE IT ALL. Because if you have that guy at QB, then the rest of your roster is easy. If you are the GM and HC, you have job security like no other. Mahomes is what 24 years old? All the other elite QBs are over 35. Mahomes stands alone and KC gets to enjoy at least 12 more years of winning seasons and being playoff relevant just by virtue of having him under center. Any NFL GM would have bet the ranch if they knew Mahomes would be that kind of player. The fact that none of them did is revealing.
You're ignoring the obvious: someone did see that potential. KC traded two 1st round picks and a third to draft him. That's a substantial price, not a casual transaction.
Getting a Mahomes is LUCK. You didn't see any NFL GMs betting the farm to draft him.
You literally did. In NFL terms, trading two first round picks and a third is a major deal. It's not the kind of insane trade the Saints made to draft Ricky Williams but it's a huge move. It doesn't matter that they didn't trade all the way up to the top pick to insure they got him. That may not have even been possible for them and the way the draft tends to play out, they likely had good info by draft day that he wasn't going to go right away. However, there was a team that thought he was worth a big draft day investment and they made it.

When a pick works out as well as Mahomes did, there's some good fortune involved but it's patently obvious that finding a great QB isn't simply a matter of luck. Why do you think NFL teams have scouts, study film, interview players, etc.? The assessment process is imperfect but integral. There's an element of unpredictability because we're talking about human beings but it clearly pays dividends. It's a far cry from a simple roll of the dice.
1 x

User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 38141
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 313

Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by Mothman » Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:50 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:41 pm
Yesterday on ESPN radio, they posed the question, "Who is most likely to stand in the way of a potential Chiefs dynasty?"

Most people were saying, "Tennessee" or "San Francisco" or even (LOL) "Pittsburgh."

But to me, it's not WHO stands in the way. It's WHAT.

And that what is the Salary Cap.

Patrick Mahomes had a cap hit this year of about $5 million. To put that in perspective, 26% of the Vikings' roster made as much or more than Patrick Mahomes this year. On the Chiefs, Frank Clark and Sammy Watkins both made more than $20 million.

Very soon, the Kansas City Chiefs are going to have to pay the piper. If Dak Prescott is worth $40 million per, as is being widely reported, then what on earth is Patrick Mahomes worth? He's a great kid, good head on his shoulders ... but will he really accept a salary that doesn't make him the highest-paid player in the NFL?

What if he commands $45 million per year? Some are predicting the first $400 million contract in history. That means you can, right now, take a minimum of $35 million in available cap off the Chiefs' payroll. That, my friends, is a LOT of money. Mahomes would be sucking up nearly a quarter of the Chiefs' salary cap. In that case, whose salary gets dumped? Which of his great weapons does he NOT have anymore? Do the Chiefs beat the 49ers without Tyreek Hill ($17.7 million)? How about Travis Kelce ($11.2 million)? Tyrann Mathieu ($16.3 million)?

I realize a new CBA is on the horizon, but it's not here yet, and we don't know what changes it will hold. So all we can do is assume the Chiefs will have to give up some of the talent around Mahomes.

If anything stops the dynasty, it'll be that. Which begs the question: Is that really something to "learn" from?
I'm not sure they're on a "dynasty" trajectory anyway but your point is certainly well made. The cap could become a real issue for them. Maybe Mahomes will follow Brady's example and except a lucrative but not bank-breaking deal to improve his chances of actually being part of a team that can dominate a decade. If not, the Chiefs will have to be able to gradually replace some of those key players you mentioned with young, highly productive but relatively inexpensive talent that can keep them in contention.
0 x

User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6565
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 275

Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by VikingLord » Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:54 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:41 pm
I realize a new CBA is on the horizon, but it's not here yet, and we don't know what changes it will hold. So all we can do is assume the Chiefs will have to give up some of the talent around Mahomes.

If anything stops the dynasty, it'll be that. Which begs the question: Is that really something to "learn" from?
Exactly. My guess is the Chiefs will pay Mahomes whatever the market dictates to keep him and will be willing to make the sacrifices around him necessary to do that under the assumption that Mahomes can elevate the players around him more than they can elevate Mahomes.

It's not a bad bet and that approach has worked well for several teams. Keep the franchise QB at all costs and let him work his offensive magic with multiple different receivers/running backs/offensive line combinations. That doesn't guarantee a dynasty necessarily, but it does keep the team very competitive every year and with some good fortune can get them into the Superbowl picture consistently.
0 x

StumpHunter
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1828
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 237

Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:17 pm

mansquatch wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:31 pm
KC had no idea Mahomes was going to be what he would be today and neither did anyone else. Think about it. If you are any of the 32 NFL GMs (Even BB) and you KNOW a guy is going to be the next king at QB what do you do? You trade it all to pick #1. TRADE IT ALL. Because if you have that guy at QB, then the rest of your roster is easy. If you are the GM and HC, you have job security like no other. Mahomes is what 24 years old? All the other elite QBs are over 35. Mahomes stands alone and KC gets to enjoy at least 12 more years of winning seasons and being playoff relevant just by virtue of having him under center. Any NFL GM would have bet the ranch if they knew Mahomes would be that kind of player. The fact that none of them did is revealing.

Getting a Mahomes is LUCK. You didn't see any NFL GMs betting the farm to draft him. Chicago bet big on Trubisky and picked him ahead of him. I guess we all have proof of at least one GM we don't want. But to say KC figured it out is to me a bridge too far. If they had they would have traded more to pick at the top.

Per Russel Wilson: I agree he is a certain HOF candidate at QB, but so is Eli Manning who has two rings to Wilson's one. I do not view Wilson to be in the same league of passing QBs as the other 5 I listed just as I would not put Eli Manning on that list either. Nothing against Wilson, I'd love it if he were a Viking, but Wilson is in his physical prime and he does not elevate his team in the same way that a guy likeMahomes does or a guy like Rogers used to. If you could pick between Wilson and Mahomes you would pick Mahomes and you wouldn't think twice about it.
Russel Wilson is second all time in passer rating, 7th all time in YPA (#1 among active players), 9th in TD % (#1 among active players), 3rd lowest all time in Int %, and 9th all time in completion percentage. He is arguably the second best passer ever.

We aren't talking his ability to run with those stats, or how often he has won his team games with miraculous 4th qtr comebacks. Those are pure passing stats.

If I could pick between him and Mahomes, I pick Mahomes because he is younger and cheaper. Wilson would be a close 2nd among current QBs for me though.

I will also argue that we don't actually know who the next group of 5-7 great QBs are going to be. There are a number of young QBs with a ton of talent in the NFL today who could turn into the next Drew Brees, Tom Brady or Big Ben. We just don't know yet.
0 x

User avatar
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 12136
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii
x 365

Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by S197 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:32 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:24 pm
Mothman wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:30 pm
It's not luck. The Chiefs didn't "luck" into Mahomes. They understood what kind of QB they wanted. They scouted him, assessed him, aggressively traded to get him, coached him up and surrounded him with the personnel to succeed.
Isn't that what we did with Christian Ponder? :lol:
I think Ponder was more along the lines of, "Our 41 year old QB is retiring?!?! Alright grab an old guy past his prime and whoever the hell is left when we pick in the 1st."
0 x

User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 38141
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 313

Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by Mothman » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:01 pm

S197 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:32 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:24 pm

Isn't that what we did with Christian Ponder? :lol:
I think Ponder was more along the lines of, "Our 41 year old QB is retiring?!?! Alright grab an old guy past his prime and whoever the hell is left when we pick in the 1st."
:lol:
0 x

StumpHunter
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1828
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 237

Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:18 pm

S197 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:32 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:24 pm

Isn't that what we did with Christian Ponder? :lol:
I think Ponder was more along the lines of, "Our 41 year old QB is retiring?!?! Alright grab an old guy past his prime and whoever the hell is left when we pick in the 1st."
Good stuff.

We neglected planning ahead at the QB spot so badly that Ponder seemed like the best option. Think about that.
0 x

User avatar
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8039
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 721

Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:06 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:17 pm
mansquatch wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:31 pm
KC had no idea Mahomes was going to be what he would be today and neither did anyone else. Think about it. If you are any of the 32 NFL GMs (Even BB) and you KNOW a guy is going to be the next king at QB what do you do? You trade it all to pick #1. TRADE IT ALL. Because if you have that guy at QB, then the rest of your roster is easy. If you are the GM and HC, you have job security like no other. Mahomes is what 24 years old? All the other elite QBs are over 35. Mahomes stands alone and KC gets to enjoy at least 12 more years of winning seasons and being playoff relevant just by virtue of having him under center. Any NFL GM would have bet the ranch if they knew Mahomes would be that kind of player. The fact that none of them did is revealing.

Getting a Mahomes is LUCK. You didn't see any NFL GMs betting the farm to draft him. Chicago bet big on Trubisky and picked him ahead of him. I guess we all have proof of at least one GM we don't want. But to say KC figured it out is to me a bridge too far. If they had they would have traded more to pick at the top.

Per Russel Wilson: I agree he is a certain HOF candidate at QB, but so is Eli Manning who has two rings to Wilson's one. I do not view Wilson to be in the same league of passing QBs as the other 5 I listed just as I would not put Eli Manning on that list either. Nothing against Wilson, I'd love it if he were a Viking, but Wilson is in his physical prime and he does not elevate his team in the same way that a guy likeMahomes does or a guy like Rogers used to. If you could pick between Wilson and Mahomes you would pick Mahomes and you wouldn't think twice about it.
Russel Wilson is second all time in passer rating, 7th all time in YPA (#1 among active players), 9th in TD % (#1 among active players), 3rd lowest all time in Int %, and 9th all time in completion percentage. He is arguably the second best passer ever.

We aren't talking his ability to run with those stats, or how often he has won his team games with miraculous 4th qtr comebacks. Those are pure passing stats.

If I could pick between him and Mahomes, I pick Mahomes because he is younger and cheaper. Wilson would be a close 2nd among current QBs for me though.

I will also argue that we don't actually know who the next group of 5-7 great QBs are going to be. There are a number of young QBs with a ton of talent in the NFL today who could turn into the next Drew Brees, Tom Brady or Big Ben. We just don't know yet.
Mahomes ain’t gonna be cheaper for long.
0 x
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.

User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6565
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 275

Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by VikingLord » Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:41 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:18 pm
S197 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:32 pm


I think Ponder was more along the lines of, "Our 41 year old QB is retiring?!?! Alright grab an old guy past his prime and whoever the hell is left when we pick in the 1st."
Good stuff.

We neglected planning ahead at the QB spot so badly that Ponder seemed like the best option. Think about that.
Am I the only person who thinks the Ponder pick at the time wasn't all that bad?

I mean, his college stats were pretty good. His tape showed he could make pro caliber throws. He interviewed well from what I understand and displayed a solid conceptual grasp of the pro offense. He seemed like a quality character guy and I don't recall hearing anything negative about him as a teammate or a person. He didn't flash anything special, but if you compare him to a lot of the QBs in this upcoming draft class, he'd probably be in the discussion as a 1st or high 2nd round pick.

It's always easy to see something in hindsight, but I don't think it was a terrible pick based on what was known at the time.

If Spielman could be faulted for something in that situation it was not having a viable plan at QB that forced his hand. Had he had a better plan he might have gone in a different direction in the 1st round that year. But Ponder probably would have went in the 1st round, and his career will probably end up resembling several, if not the majority of the 2020 QBs that also will be taken in the 1st round this year.
0 x

User avatar
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 12136
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii
x 365

Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by S197 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:50 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:41 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:18 pm


Good stuff.

We neglected planning ahead at the QB spot so badly that Ponder seemed like the best option. Think about that.
Am I the only person who thinks the Ponder pick at the time wasn't all that bad?

I mean, his college stats were pretty good. His tape showed he could make pro caliber throws. He interviewed well from what I understand and displayed a solid conceptual grasp of the pro offense. He seemed like a quality character guy and I don't recall hearing anything negative about him as a teammate or a person. He didn't flash anything special, but if you compare him to a lot of the QBs in this upcoming draft class, he'd probably be in the discussion as a 1st or high 2nd round pick.

It's always easy to see something in hindsight, but I don't think it was a terrible pick based on what was known at the time.

If Spielman could be faulted for something in that situation it was not having a viable plan at QB that forced his hand. Had he had a better plan he might have gone in a different direction in the 1st round that year. But Ponder probably would have went in the 1st round, and his career will probably end up resembling several, if not the majority of the 2020 QBs that also will be taken in the 1st round this year.
I recall the pick being pretty universally disliked by the board even on draft day. Some guys were trying to stay positive pointing out some of his strengths but I don't recall anyone being overjoyed. It was a reach by most accounts.

Although to be fair, a lot of the board favorites like Jake Locker and Ryan Mallet didn't pan out either.
0 x

User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 38141
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 313

Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by Mothman » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:22 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:41 pm
Am I the only person who thinks the Ponder pick at the time wasn't all that bad?
No, I don't think it was that bad either. They obviously passed up some good players to make it and it was a higher-than-ideal spot at which to select him but as you pointed out, they had backed themselves into a corner at the position.

In my view, Ponder had genuine potential. I think there's a bit of a "nature vs. nurture" argument to be made on his behalf. I doubt he ever could have been much more than a solid NFL QB but I think he landed in a tough situation. If he'd had a year or two to develop behind the scenes while the Vikings improved their offensive roster, his career might have gone much better. Instead, I think think he was asked to do too much too early. I don't know if people remember but he took an absolute beating behind a bad o-line in 2011 and injuries had left the defense a mess so the Vikes were often in obvious passing situations. He didn't have a great receiving corps either. Ponder had some good moments as a rookie but he also struggled and the fan base turned on him very quickly, in no small part because of where he was drafted (and he never had control over that).

In short, I think his psyche took as much of a beating as his body. Maybe that just means he didn't have what it takes to make it in the NFL (it obviously worked out that way) but I do wonder how his career would have turned out if he'd been able to take the path of someone like Jimmy Garoppolo.
0 x

Dmizzle0
Franchise Player
Posts: 467
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:03 pm
x 19

Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by Dmizzle0 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:51 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:34 pm
Dmizzle0 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:45 pm


Waynes and Barr aren't busts. Hughes is still too early.

It also helps to have Mahommes with an offensive mind like Andy Reid. Unfortunately the Vikings end up play well the same season great draft picks are available compromising the draft position. Maybe they need to get bold and trade for a high spot when the opportunity arises.
They are bust compared to where they were drafted.
A player drafted with the 9th overrall pick should be a top 30 player in the league. He's not even top 150.
so a player that makes it to the pro bowl 4 times is a bust?
0 x

CharVike
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:28 pm
x 202

Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by CharVike » Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:56 am

YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:03 pm
CharVike wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:28 pm

We have had many mobile QBs and guess what happened. We had Randall Cunningham who was far superior at movement than Mahomes and we couldn't get to the show. His problem was he had bad accuracy and was a one read guy. We had Culpepper who had great movement but IMO wasn't a very good passer. He was shut out in the champ game because he throwing was off. Plus he had two HOF WRs. I don't agree that Kap is equal to Mahomes. Mahomes is a dam good passer of the football. Kap has limited passing ability and that's why he's not in the NFL. Jimmy G just made the Super Bowl and I wouldn't call him a mobile guy. Lamar Jackson who was the MVP couldn't put up enough points in a home playoff loss. That mobility didn't help much. His ability to pass that day was off which made scoring difficult. Mahomes is the Super Bowl winner but that entire team played a great game. They ran the ball effectively. They also played some D. Rodgers is a pocket passer and made it to the champ game. I doubt they would have beat that 49er team even if he was a great runner of the football. Their D played like crap. Bottom line a team like the Packers need to dump Rodgers because those type of QBs are no longer any good in the NFL. I don't agree with that at all. Give me a great passer over a great runner at that position. Keep this in mind a guy like Jackson eventually will take a shot while running and then turn out the lights. Typically teams don't want their QBs taking big hits. Bring back the wish bone if that's the case.
You want to point out that Culpeppers best year was without MOss?
Culpepper's only good years was because of Moss. Without him he couldn't do anything. He was a one read and chuck guy. He wasn't a surgeon on the field picking apart defenses. Others might feel different. It's only my opinion.
0 x

User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6565
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 275

Re: What can the Vikings learn from the Chiefs?

Post by VikingLord » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:00 am

S197 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:50 pm
I recall the pick being pretty universally disliked by the board even on draft day. Some guys were trying to stay positive pointing out some of his strengths but I don't recall anyone being overjoyed. It was a reach by most accounts.

Although to be fair, a lot of the board favorites like Jake Locker and Ryan Mallet didn't pan out either.
Actually, I wasn't thrilled with the pick either, mostly because I thought Spielman was drafting for need rather than BPA. There were objectively better players at other positions who were available in that draft and who could have helped the Vikings more over time.

But among the QBs available, Ponder wasn't a terrible choice.
0 x