PHP's Early Mock Offseason

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CharVike
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by CharVike » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:10 am

VikingLord wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:30 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:33 am
In short, arm strength means nothing without the accuracy, poise in the pocket, and most importantly, the QB IQ. The difference between the best QB in this upcoming draft and the bust is not going to be who throws the ball the hardest. Someday GM's will figure that out and stop drafting guys like Bortles and Trubisky in the top 5 based solely on their measurables.
Eason seems to be very accurate, however. When he lets it go it's usually on the money, and when someone can throw it as hard as he does, that is impressive. He can fit the ball into some very tight windows.

With that said, I totally agree on the poise and QB IQ, but also say that for Eason there just isn't enough tape to say one way or the other whether he has those traits. He might have them and be able to develop them further or he might not. So taking him at #25 is a big bet that he has them and can further develop them.

I personally think he won't be on the board at #25. I think he will come off earlier than that due almost solely to his size and arm which is top-notch in this QB class.
If a guy doesn't have the arm he doesn't have a chance regardless of all the other BS. I remember back in 87 when we beat the Saints and Kramer started and couldn't throw. His arm looked shot. Couldn't get it deep. I'm sitting there saying why is this nothing arm playing. Then they went to Wilson who could at least throw then dam thing. We all have an opinion but I'll take arm strength as a starting point Does that mean a guy will be great? No. But at least every play stays in the book. Like when no arm Teddy was picked I thought why waste that pick on a joke. Many here feel he's good enough. Well he's a FA. No team will be chasing after him.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:08 am

VikingLord wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:30 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:33 am
In short, arm strength means nothing without the accuracy, poise in the pocket, and most importantly, the QB IQ. The difference between the best QB in this upcoming draft and the bust is not going to be who throws the ball the hardest. Someday GM's will figure that out and stop drafting guys like Bortles and Trubisky in the top 5 based solely on their measurables.
Eason seems to be very accurate, however. When he lets it go it's usually on the money, and when someone can throw it as hard as he does, that is impressive. He can fit the ball into some very tight windows.

With that said, I totally agree on the poise and QB IQ, but also say that for Eason there just isn't enough tape to say one way or the other whether he has those traits. He might have them and be able to develop them further or he might not. So taking him at #25 is a big bet that he has them and can further develop them.

I personally think he won't be on the board at #25. I think he will come off earlier than that due almost solely to his size and arm which is top-notch in this QB class.
The reason scouts love size and arm is because that stuff is easy to see on tape. It means very little without the other proven tangibles though.

Eason might be a great pro, but the odds are he will be the next Bortles or Trubisky. QBs with just one solid year in college scare the crap out of me.
Last edited by StumpHunter on Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:57 am

CharVike wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:10 am
VikingLord wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:30 pm


Eason seems to be very accurate, however. When he lets it go it's usually on the money, and when someone can throw it as hard as he does, that is impressive. He can fit the ball into some very tight windows.

With that said, I totally agree on the poise and QB IQ, but also say that for Eason there just isn't enough tape to say one way or the other whether he has those traits. He might have them and be able to develop them further or he might not. So taking him at #25 is a big bet that he has them and can further develop them.

I personally think he won't be on the board at #25. I think he will come off earlier than that due almost solely to his size and arm which is top-notch in this QB class.
If a guy doesn't have the arm he doesn't have a chance regardless of all the other BS. I remember back in 87 when we beat the Saints and Kramer started and couldn't throw. His arm looked shot. Couldn't get it deep. I'm sitting there saying why is this nothing arm playing. Then they went to Wilson who could at least throw then dam thing. We all have an opinion but I'll take arm strength as a starting point Does that mean a guy will be great? No. But at least every play stays in the book. Like when no arm Teddy was picked I thought why waste that pick on a joke. Many here feel he's good enough. Well he's a FA. No team will be chasing after him.
There is a huge difference between an average arm and an aging QB with nothing left.

Teddy's success or failure in the NFL has nothing to do with his arm strength. He can and did make every type of throw when he was here and there were not plays removed from the playbook. Frankly, the arm strength stuff is the lazy or ignorant fans fallback. Heck even Ponder could have been a moderately successful QB if he wasn't garbage at pretty much everything else on top of the weak arm.

I don't know and don't really care what type of market there is for Teddy, but he did get pursued last Season to be a starter of at least one team. That was before he had a 5 game stretch where he averaged as many yards, tds and ints per game as our 30 milion dollar guy.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by VikingLord » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:09 am

CharVike wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:10 am
If a guy doesn't have the arm he doesn't have a chance regardless of all the other BS. I remember back in 87 when we beat the Saints and Kramer started and couldn't throw. His arm looked shot. Couldn't get it deep. I'm sitting there saying why is this nothing arm playing. Then they went to Wilson who could at least throw then dam thing. We all have an opinion but I'll take arm strength as a starting point Does that mean a guy will be great? No. But at least every play stays in the book. Like when no arm Teddy was picked I thought why waste that pick on a joke. Many here feel he's good enough. Well he's a FA. No team will be chasing after him.
Arm strength is great, but a QB with average strength can be very successful. Tom Brady is all you need to prove that point.

A weak arm is obviously not going to cut it. The QB must be able to deliver the ball with confidence, and that does require some strength, but as long as his arm can manage what his brain tells it to do when it needs to do it and where, that's really all that he needs in terms of physical ability.

It really comes back to what's between his ears, both in terms of on-field awareness and poise, but also in terms of his leadership and the example he sets as well as his willingness and ability to put in the off-field time and preparation necessary to be successful.

Eason clearly has the arm and ideal size for a pro QB. He's just not easy to evaluate on the other attributes given he's had limited time as a starter in college.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by VikingLord » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:23 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:08 am
Eason might be a great pro, but the odds are he will be the next Bortles or Trubisky. QBs with just one solid year in college scare the crap out of me.
He scares me at #25, mostly for the same reason he scares you.

But he scares me for another reason too, that being that's it not obvious the Vikings should spend a high pick at QB in this draft when there will likely be promising players at OT, OG and DT at #25. Spielman spends #25 on a guy like Eason while ignoring those other positions, the lines don't improve and he has a QB with potential that won't play immediately. It would take a pretty high degree of confidence that they have done their homework on Eason coupled with a longer-term view to make a pick like that this year, especially when there will be the real temptation to extend Cousins, both to get immediate cap relief which they desperately need coupled with the fact that Cousins is probably "good enough" if the issues at other positions are addressed.

Zimmer and Spielman have so much invested in the path they're on that it would take some real vision and awareness to essentially choose to backtrack a bit and, in some ways, start over. But the cap situation they're in may force them to think that way, which is good in the sense that they might want to take a hard look at the ceiling of their current approach and how far they can get sticking with Cousins over a longer term.

Tough decisions to make...
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:45 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:57 am

Teddy's success or failure in the NFL has nothing to do with his arm strength.
Ehhh, him being overly conservative and scared to throw downfield sure didnt help him. I dont think he trusts his own arm to be honest.
He can and did make every type of throw when he was here and there were not plays removed from the playbook. Frankly, the arm strength stuff is the lazy or ignorant fans fallback. Heck even Ponder could have been a moderately successful QB if he wasn't garbage at pretty much everything else on top of the weak arm.
So if Ponder had a weak arm, what makes you think Teddy had a strong one that could "make every throw"? Cousins and Bridgewater from a passing standpoint, simply arent comparable. They just arent and I can guarantee I'm not the only one that believes that.
I don't know and don't really care what type of market there is for Teddy, but he did get pursued last Season to be a starter of at least one team. That was before he had a 5 game stretch where he averaged as many yards, tds and ints per game as our 30 milion dollar guy.
Looking at a 5 game stretch that one QB had and trying to compare him to a full time starter isnt really fair if you ask me. I can pick a 5 game stretch of Cousins' that shatters what Teddy had in his 5 game stretch. You're simply comparing a large sample size to a small sample size and trying to claim them as equal. No, in no way, shape or form does that compare. I can find 4-5 game stretches where Kyle Allen played well. Or others like Ryan Fitzpatrick, Gardner Minshew, Mitch Trubisky, Sam Darnold, etc. That doesnt mean they are a good QB or that they are comparable to our "30 million dollar guy".
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by halfgiz » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:12 pm

Teddy was exactly what Zimmer wanted him to be...game manager.
We need a better backup QB this year...rather it be through the draft or FA.
Edit:
Cousins isn't my 30 million dollar QB. He disappeared in to many big games the last 2 years.
I am anxious to see how Kubiak and him do this year.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by StumpHunter » Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:57 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:45 pm

Ehhh, him being overly conservative and scared to throw downfield sure didnt help him. I dont think he trusts his own arm to be honest.

So if Ponder had a weak arm, what makes you think Teddy had a strong one that could "make every throw"? Cousins and Bridgewater from a passing standpoint, simply arent comparable. They just arent and I can guarantee I'm not the only one that believes that.
Kirk Cousins 2015 deep ball stats (15+ yards downfield):
43-94 for a 46% completion percentage.

Threw a deep ball once every 6 attempts

Teddy Bridgewater:
34-76 for a 45% completion percentage

Threw a deep ball once every 6 attempts.

No discernible difference when you take into account the total number of throws, yet apparently one had those numbers because he was overly conservative or had a weak arm, while the other did it because...?

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:45 pm
You're simply comparing a large sample size to a small sample size and trying to claim them as equal.
Nope, that is not what I was doing.

I was saying in the sample size we had, Teddy put up the numbers our 30 million dollar QB did on a worse team while winning every game he started. Based on that, why would his value to the rest of the NFL go down?
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by CharVike » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:08 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:57 am
CharVike wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:10 am

If a guy doesn't have the arm he doesn't have a chance regardless of all the other BS. I remember back in 87 when we beat the Saints and Kramer started and couldn't throw. His arm looked shot. Couldn't get it deep. I'm sitting there saying why is this nothing arm playing. Then they went to Wilson who could at least throw then dam thing. We all have an opinion but I'll take arm strength as a starting point Does that mean a guy will be great? No. But at least every play stays in the book. Like when no arm Teddy was picked I thought why waste that pick on a joke. Many here feel he's good enough. Well he's a FA. No team will be chasing after him.
There is a huge difference between an average arm and an aging QB with nothing left.

Teddy's success or failure in the NFL has nothing to do with his arm strength. He can and did make every type of throw when he was here and there were not plays removed from the playbook. Frankly, the arm strength stuff is the lazy or ignorant fans fallback. Heck even Ponder could have been a moderately successful QB if he wasn't garbage at pretty much everything else on top of the weak arm.

I don't know and don't really care what type of market there is for Teddy, but he did get pursued last Season to be a starter of at least one team. That was before he had a 5 game stretch where he averaged as many yards, tds and ints per game as our 30 milion dollar guy.
I like arm strength. The best example is a throw Farve made that turned our season around. He beat the 49ers with a TD strike that traveled about 40 yards down the middle for a TD that turned our season around. Got us going. Teddy can't make that throw. Yes I'm ignorant. One guy can make the throw the other won't even attempt because his arm isn't strong enough. Is it that hard to see.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:36 am

CharVike wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:08 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:57 am

There is a huge difference between an average arm and an aging QB with nothing left.

Teddy's success or failure in the NFL has nothing to do with his arm strength. He can and did make every type of throw when he was here and there were not plays removed from the playbook. Frankly, the arm strength stuff is the lazy or ignorant fans fallback. Heck even Ponder could have been a moderately successful QB if he wasn't garbage at pretty much everything else on top of the weak arm.

I don't know and don't really care what type of market there is for Teddy, but he did get pursued last Season to be a starter of at least one team. That was before he had a 5 game stretch where he averaged as many yards, tds and ints per game as our 30 milion dollar guy.
I like arm strength. The best example is a throw Farve made that turned our season around. He beat the 49ers with a TD strike that traveled about 40 yards down the middle for a TD that turned our season around. Got us going. Teddy can't make that throw. Yes I'm ignorant. One guy can make the throw the other won't even attempt because his arm isn't strong enough. Is it that hard to see.
That was perfect placement by Favre more than arm strength.


This is what happened when Teddy attempted to place a ball perfectly in the end zone against the 9ers:

Image

"Teddy won't even attempt that throw, arm isn't strong enough."
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:55 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:36 am
CharVike wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:08 am

I like arm strength. The best example is a throw Farve made that turned our season around. He beat the 49ers with a TD strike that traveled about 40 yards down the middle for a TD that turned our season around. Got us going. Teddy can't make that throw. Yes I'm ignorant. One guy can make the throw the other won't even attempt because his arm isn't strong enough. Is it that hard to see.
That was perfect placement by Favre more than arm strength.


This is what happened when Teddy attempted to place a ball perfectly in the end zone against the 9ers:

Image

"Teddy won't even attempt that throw, arm isn't strong enough."
And how’d teddy do that game? I can go find plenty of film where bridgewater wouldn’t take deep shots and missed open WRs.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:00 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:57 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:45 pm

Ehhh, him being overly conservative and scared to throw downfield sure didnt help him. I dont think he trusts his own arm to be honest.

So if Ponder had a weak arm, what makes you think Teddy had a strong one that could "make every throw"? Cousins and Bridgewater from a passing standpoint, simply arent comparable. They just arent and I can guarantee I'm not the only one that believes that.
Kirk Cousins 2015 deep ball stats (15+ yards downfield):
43-94 for a 46% completion percentage.

Threw a deep ball once every 6 attempts

Teddy Bridgewater:
34-76 for a 45% completion percentage

Threw a deep ball once every 6 attempts.

No discernible difference when you take into account the total number of throws, yet apparently one had those numbers because he was overly conservative or had a weak arm, while the other did it because...?

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:45 pm
You're simply comparing a large sample size to a small sample size and trying to claim them as equal.
Nope, that is not what I was doing.

I was saying in the sample size we had, Teddy put up the numbers our 30 million dollar QB did on a worse team while winning every game he started. Based on that, why would his value to the rest of the NFL go down?
New Orleans was a worse team?

And you’re also comparing stats from 5 seasons ago so I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove there. If you’re going to sit here and somehow try to compare teddy to cousins as a passer, you’re sadly mistaken.

As much of a QB guru as you think you might be, I’m blown away that you continually defend Teddy Bridgewater of all QBs. I don’t even know why teddy is a topic of conversation to be honest
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:44 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:55 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:36 am

That was perfect placement by Favre more than arm strength.


This is what happened when Teddy attempted to place a ball perfectly in the end zone against the 9ers:

Image

"Teddy won't even attempt that throw, arm isn't strong enough."
And how’d teddy do that game? I can go find plenty of film where bridgewater wouldn’t take deep shots and missed open WRs.
If the receiver had caught a ball that hit in the hands, not bad. 280 yards, 1 TD, 1 Int 75% completion percentage.

Every QB has failed to take deep shot and missed open receivers, that is not the point though. I am not saying Teddy was good at throwing the deep ball, I am saying his arm wasn't the problem.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:01 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:00 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:57 pm

Kirk Cousins 2015 deep ball stats (15+ yards downfield):
43-94 for a 46% completion percentage.

Threw a deep ball once every 6 attempts

Teddy Bridgewater:
34-76 for a 45% completion percentage

Threw a deep ball once every 6 attempts.

No discernible difference when you take into account the total number of throws, yet apparently one had those numbers because he was overly conservative or had a weak arm, while the other did it because...?



Nope, that is not what I was doing.

I was saying in the sample size we had, Teddy put up the numbers our 30 million dollar QB did on a worse team while winning every game he started. Based on that, why would his value to the rest of the NFL go down?
New Orleans was a worse team?

And you’re also comparing stats from 5 seasons ago so I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove there. If you’re going to sit here and somehow try to compare teddy to cousins as a passer, you’re sadly mistaken.

As much of a QB guru as you think you might be, I’m blown away that you continually defend Teddy Bridgewater of all QBs. I don’t even know why teddy is a topic of conversation to be honest
NOs was a worse team. We beat them at their place in the playoffs.

I am comparing stats from 5 years ago to stats 5 years ago. A QB in his first full season starting to a QB in his first full season. Apples to apples. Check that, it is still apples to oranges because Cousins had a good line and good veteran receivers to throw too.

I like Teddy because of the unfulfilled promise he represents. I like that his play got better in big spots, not worse. He is being discussed now because someone brought up that arm strength was his problem and the last pick the Vikings made at QB should be discussed when looking at the prospect of taking another QB in the draft.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:11 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:44 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:55 pm


And how’d teddy do that game? I can go find plenty of film where bridgewater wouldn’t take deep shots and missed open WRs.
If the receiver had caught a ball that hit in the hands, not bad. 280 yards, 1 TD, 1 Int 75% completion percentage.

Every QB has failed to take deep shot and missed open receivers, that is not the point though. I am not saying Teddy was good at throwing the deep ball, I am saying his arm wasn't the problem.
Pretty sure the defender made a good play on Wallace. Not saying it wasn’t catchable but either way, we got smoked that game and it again was another game AP couldn’t get going and in turn teddy struggled
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