PHP's Early Mock Offseason

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CharVike
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by CharVike » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:26 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:53 am
halfgiz wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:36 am
What good QB is going to drop to the 25th pick in the draft?
We need to go for DL/OL.
We do need to try and pick up a better backup QB this season.

I also question rather we can afford Cousins with out breaking the bank. Last I heard is agent was looking at 35 mil a season. Kind of crazy money for a run first team.
Guess we will find out if Cousins is after money or wants to stick with the Vikings.
That isn't really fair to Cousins. Pretty much all QBs, from Rodgers to Wilson, milk every penny they can get from their team. Brady is the exception and in a very different spot than Cousins. I won't blame him for trying to break the bank once again and I am thinking he pushes for a 3 year, fully guaranteed 105 million contract.
I don't think milk is the correct word. It's the current rate. And that applies to every position. The estimate of 35 million may be low. . I would imagine the new CBA will address this issue. A team can't afford many top players when one position gets a 3rd+ of the CAP. Take Mahomes as an example. That team he plays on has talent across the board. They won't be able to keep all those guys.The same thing will happen to the 49ers. We are in the same boat. IMO our biggest problem is paying guys to much for what they produce. In a CAP driven system guys need to perform up to what they are taking. We all have an opinion on this and it takes it to a different subject.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by Fat Stupid Loser » Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:17 pm

S197 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:43 pm
Tua is only an option if he falls due to injury concerns. You never know, we've seen many years guys are in the green room much longer than expected. I'd be okay trading up to around 20 but if he goes earlier I'm alright with letting him go.
Injuries are a serious problem with him. Its a shame. I wouldn't do it.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by VikingLord » Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:14 pm

Fat Stupid Loser wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:17 pm
S197 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:43 pm
Tua is only an option if he falls due to injury concerns. You never know, we've seen many years guys are in the green room much longer than expected. I'd be okay trading up to around 20 but if he goes earlier I'm alright with letting him go.
Injuries are a serious problem with him. Its a shame. I wouldn't do it.
He'll never last to 20 if he's healthy, and if he's not he isn't worth a pick in any round as he'll never play.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by S197 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:04 pm

halfgiz wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:36 am
What good QB is going to drop to the 25th pick in the draft?
We need to go for DL/OL.
We do need to try and pick up a better backup QB this season.

I also question rather we can afford Cousins with out breaking the bank. Last I heard is agent was looking at 35 mil a season. Kind of crazy money for a run first team.
Guess we will find out if Cousins is after money or wants to stick with the Vikings.
Not all good QBs are taken in the first 10 picks. Or even in the 1st round for that matter. Rodgers, Wilson, Lamar Jackson, Cousins... Good QBs are scattered throughout the draft. The Vikings shouldn't reach for anyone when they pick but just because a guy is there doesn't mean he can't be good.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by halfgiz » Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:33 am

S197 wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:04 pm
halfgiz wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:36 am
What good QB is going to drop to the 25th pick in the draft?
We need to go for DL/OL.
We do need to try and pick up a better backup QB this season.

I also question rather we can afford Cousins with out breaking the bank. Last I heard is agent was looking at 35 mil a season. Kind of crazy money for a run first team.
Guess we will find out if Cousins is after money or wants to stick with the Vikings.
Not all good QBs are taken in the first 10 picks. Or even in the 1st round for that matter. Rodgers, Wilson, Lamar Jackson, Cousins... Good QBs are scattered throughout the draft. The Vikings shouldn't reach for anyone when they pick but just because a guy is there doesn't mean he can't be good.
Rick shouldn't reach for any QB's with his track record. Maybe Kubiak will help solve that too.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by CharVike » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:47 am

Dolphins draft target Tua Tagovailoa gets positive update on hip injury. ... NFL Network reported Monday, citing sources, that Tagovailoa's three-month CT scan on his hip “was as positive as possible.” His hip fracture has healed, and his range of motion is good, according to the report.2 days ago

Based on that I guess he's a top 5 guy. Could be another Mahomes type of deal. Pick him and win the super bowl a few years later.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by CharVike » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:46 am

halfgiz wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:33 am
S197 wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:04 pm


Not all good QBs are taken in the first 10 picks. Or even in the 1st round for that matter. Rodgers, Wilson, Lamar Jackson, Cousins... Good QBs are scattered throughout the draft. The Vikings shouldn't reach for anyone when they pick but just because a guy is there doesn't mean he can't be good.
Rick shouldn't reach for any QB's with his track record. Maybe Kubiak will help solve that too.
IMO this QB draft class looks weak. Even this guy Burrow he is at the top but her certainly doesn't appear to have all the raw tools needed to be a stud. I like the kid but he's more a 2nd round pick type talent. Not the 1st overall. The guy I like is that Jacob Eason. He can throw the ball. Arm strength is great and he has tremendous size. His biggest issue is that he only played one year. That to me is a big concern. He needs to sit a few years before he will be ready. But he to might go in round 1 and maybe early.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:56 pm

CharVike wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:47 am
Dolphins draft target Tua Tagovailoa gets positive update on hip injury. ... NFL Network reported Monday, citing sources, that Tagovailoa's three-month CT scan on his hip “was as positive as possible.” His hip fracture has healed, and his range of motion is good, according to the report.2 days ago

Based on that I guess he's a top 5 guy. Could be another Mahomes type of deal. Pick him and win the super bowl a few years later.
I thought you said Tua has a pop gun for an arm.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by VikingLord » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:12 pm

CharVike wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:47 am
Dolphins draft target Tua Tagovailoa gets positive update on hip injury. ... NFL Network reported Monday, citing sources, that Tagovailoa's three-month CT scan on his hip “was as positive as possible.” His hip fracture has healed, and his range of motion is good, according to the report.2 days ago

Based on that I guess he's a top 5 guy. Could be another Mahomes type of deal. Pick him and win the super bowl a few years later.
I wouldn't touch Tua in this draft. While he can recover from the hip injury most likely, I'm far more worried about the mental impact that will have on the way he plays going forward. Whenever someone suffers a significant injury like that (he was reportedly howling in pain), even if the physical effects are minimized and it heals completely, he's likely going to have it in the back of his mind.

While it never pays for a QB to play recklessly and without any regard for his health, a QB who even subconsciously is worried about taking another big hit and suffering another painful injury is likely not going to be as effective as he otherwise might.

Also, with Tua we have to remember the guy played on a stacked college team (Burrow did also). That isn't to say he isn't talented, but more that translating college success, especially when he's likely to go from a stacked college team to a bottom-dwelling pro team that will look to him for major immediate improvement, is going to expose whatever weaknesses there are in his approach and his game.

There isn't a QB in this draft that I think is worth trading up to get. Now, if one falls, like Eason, I might be tempted. I originally considered Eason as a 2nd round pick for the Vikings if he fell that far, but I don't think he will. He might fall to 25 in the 1st round, though. That would be a really risky play for Spielman to take QB in the first, and I would much rather he address OL or interior DL at 25, but Eason would probably be worth serious consideration at that spot, especially since he wouldn't have to start immediately and could develop without that kind of pressure.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by VikingLord » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:24 pm

CharVike wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:46 am
halfgiz wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:33 am


Rick shouldn't reach for any QB's with his track record. Maybe Kubiak will help solve that too.
IMO this QB draft class looks weak. Even this guy Burrow he is at the top but her certainly doesn't appear to have all the raw tools needed to be a stud. I like the kid but he's more a 2nd round pick type talent. Not the 1st overall. The guy I like is that Jacob Eason. He can throw the ball. Arm strength is great and he has tremendous size. His biggest issue is that he only played one year. That to me is a big concern. He needs to sit a few years before he will be ready. But he to might go in round 1 and maybe early.
I see you mention Eason specifically here.

I'd have to agree with you on the physical aspects. He's big and strong and really can put the ball anywhere on the field. If you watch his highlights you see some really well-placed balls and a willingness to throw into tight windows with velocity and accuracy.

What concerns me is his footwork and pocket awareness. I am not concerned that he doesn't have good footwork or pocket awareness, but mostly concerned that his highlights at least don't show him having to use either to sense or escape pressure very often. The great QBs develop or demonstrate the ability to sense pressure and move in ways that avoid the pressure while still allowing them to make throws.

I can't say Eason doesn't have that or can't develop it. He very well might. It's just that based on what he's shown so far it's hard to get a sense of his potential in this area.

If he does have that ability to move well in the pocket and avoid/escape pressure, if the Vikes get him at 25 it will be a steal. His physical abilities are off the charts IMHO. This is a guy who will absolutely give defensive coordinators fits if he can extend plays under pressure.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by S197 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:49 pm

halfgiz wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:33 am
S197 wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:04 pm


Not all good QBs are taken in the first 10 picks. Or even in the 1st round for that matter. Rodgers, Wilson, Lamar Jackson, Cousins... Good QBs are scattered throughout the draft. The Vikings shouldn't reach for anyone when they pick but just because a guy is there doesn't mean he can't be good.
Rick shouldn't reach for any QB's with his track record. Maybe Kubiak will help solve that too.
Given his track record the odds he drafts a QB is just about nil anyway.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by CharVike » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:40 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:56 pm
CharVike wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:47 am
Dolphins draft target Tua Tagovailoa gets positive update on hip injury. ... NFL Network reported Monday, citing sources, that Tagovailoa's three-month CT scan on his hip “was as positive as possible.” His hip fracture has healed, and his range of motion is good, according to the report.2 days ago

Based on that I guess he's a top 5 guy. Could be another Mahomes type of deal. Pick him and win the super bowl a few years later.
I thought you said Tua has a pop gun for an arm.
I just posted an update. I wouldn't consider the guy in round 1. He doesn't have the arm that I like. Of course picking a below average performer for a QB is easy because most won't make it. I would use a top 5 pick on something else or trade it. And yes he does have a pop gun arm.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by CharVike » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:53 am

VikingLord wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:24 pm
CharVike wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:46 am

IMO this QB draft class looks weak. Even this guy Burrow he is at the top but her certainly doesn't appear to have all the raw tools needed to be a stud. I like the kid but he's more a 2nd round pick type talent. Not the 1st overall. The guy I like is that Jacob Eason. He can throw the ball. Arm strength is great and he has tremendous size. His biggest issue is that he only played one year. That to me is a big concern. He needs to sit a few years before he will be ready. But he to might go in round 1 and maybe early.
I see you mention Eason specifically here.

I'd have to agree with you on the physical aspects. He's big and strong and really can put the ball anywhere on the field. If you watch his highlights you see some really well-placed balls and a willingness to throw into tight windows with velocity and accuracy.

What concerns me is his footwork and pocket awareness. I am not concerned that he doesn't have good footwork or pocket awareness, but mostly concerned that his highlights at least don't show him having to use either to sense or escape pressure very often. The great QBs develop or demonstrate the ability to sense pressure and move in ways that avoid the pressure while still allowing them to make throws.

I can't say Eason doesn't have that or can't develop it. He very well might. It's just that based on what he's shown so far it's hard to get a sense of his potential in this area.

If he does have that ability to move well in the pocket and avoid/escape pressure, if the Vikes get him at 25 it will be a steal. His physical abilities are off the charts IMHO. This is a guy who will absolutely give defensive coordinators fits if he can extend plays under pressure.
I mention Eason because I watched his highlights and I was impressed with the guy. Of course they were highlights but I like his arm. He can throw rockets into tight areas anywhere on the field. That can't be taught. Plus I like the way the guy sets up. Is he a draft and play guy? Nope. He will need to sit a few years. But his physical ability is outstanding. I get the feeling he will fly up the board. But if he is there at 25 he better be the pick. Just like I felt Drew Lock should have been the pick last year. With that Eason will probably never be a good player. That would be the easy call and more than likely correct. But if he and a healthy Tau are there at 25 I'd take Eason over him because of the better arm strength and size.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:33 am

VikingLord wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:24 pm
CharVike wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:46 am

IMO this QB draft class looks weak. Even this guy Burrow he is at the top but her certainly doesn't appear to have all the raw tools needed to be a stud. I like the kid but he's more a 2nd round pick type talent. Not the 1st overall. The guy I like is that Jacob Eason. He can throw the ball. Arm strength is great and he has tremendous size. His biggest issue is that he only played one year. That to me is a big concern. He needs to sit a few years before he will be ready. But he to might go in round 1 and maybe early.
I see you mention Eason specifically here.

I'd have to agree with you on the physical aspects. He's big and strong and really can put the ball anywhere on the field. If you watch his highlights you see some really well-placed balls and a willingness to throw into tight windows with velocity and accuracy.

What concerns me is his footwork and pocket awareness. I am not concerned that he doesn't have good footwork or pocket awareness, but mostly concerned that his highlights at least don't show him having to use either to sense or escape pressure very often. The great QBs develop or demonstrate the ability to sense pressure and move in ways that avoid the pressure while still allowing them to make throws.

I can't say Eason doesn't have that or can't develop it. He very well might. It's just that based on what he's shown so far it's hard to get a sense of his potential in this area.

If he does have that ability to move well in the pocket and avoid/escape pressure, if the Vikes get him at 25 it will be a steal. His physical abilities are off the charts IMHO. This is a guy who will absolutely give defensive coordinators fits if he can extend plays under pressure.
I have been watching some old QB pro bowl skills competitions on Youtube lately (please don't judge me). They used to have the longest throw competition back in the 90's and the QBs would go all out to win that thing because there was actually quite a bit of money on the line. In essence you saw exactly who the QBs with the strongest, most accurate arms downfield were, and surprisingly, the winners of that competition were not the elite QBs of the time. One year saw Brady and Manning in their primes going against the likes of Brooks, Jake Plummer and Doug Flutie. Surprisingly, there was a bigger difference between Brooks and Brady/Manning on the high end of throwing deep than there was between Flutie and Brady/Manning. Brady and Manning only threw it about 3 yards further than Flutie, while Brooks beat everyone in the field by a good 5 yards.

For the most part, there was no correlation between arm strength in those competitions and how great the QB was. Favre was the exception one exception among the strong arm'd QBs and was really the only elite QB of that time who did well in that competition, but most of the time it was guys like Cordelle Stewart and Aaron Brooks who won it.

In short, arm strength means nothing without the accuracy, poise in the pocket, and most importantly, the QB IQ. The difference between the best QB in this upcoming draft and the bust is not going to be who throws the ball the hardest. Someday GM's will figure that out and stop drafting guys like Bortles and Trubisky in the top 5 based solely on their measurables.
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Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by VikingLord » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:30 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:33 am
In short, arm strength means nothing without the accuracy, poise in the pocket, and most importantly, the QB IQ. The difference between the best QB in this upcoming draft and the bust is not going to be who throws the ball the hardest. Someday GM's will figure that out and stop drafting guys like Bortles and Trubisky in the top 5 based solely on their measurables.
Eason seems to be very accurate, however. When he lets it go it's usually on the money, and when someone can throw it as hard as he does, that is impressive. He can fit the ball into some very tight windows.

With that said, I totally agree on the poise and QB IQ, but also say that for Eason there just isn't enough tape to say one way or the other whether he has those traits. He might have them and be able to develop them further or he might not. So taking him at #25 is a big bet that he has them and can further develop them.

I personally think he won't be on the board at #25. I think he will come off earlier than that due almost solely to his size and arm which is top-notch in this QB class.
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