PHP's Early Mock Offseason

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 38078
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 270

Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by Mothman » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:55 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:32 pm
Well, one is a RG, one is a LT. I have different expectations from them, as they face different challenges. So does the entirety of the NFL.

I don't think the Vikings will replace Kline this season. It would only save 1.5 million to cut him, and as you pointed out, they have too many other holes to fill. Reiff is a better candidate for being cut, because of his contract, but as I have said, I don't think that makes the line better and again, just creates another hole to fill. If the next franchise LT comes along in the draft or the next great RG, I want the Vikings to take them. That is all I am saying.

LG is a whole other story. They absolutely need find Elf's replacement in the draft. The good FA guards like Thuney are going to be grossly over priced and so are the mediocre ones. To finally get better at that spot, they need to invest draft capital into it. That is how the line will significantly improve over this season.
Guard is a good need to have for a team picking relatively late in the first round. Typically, guards don't go too high although if memory serves, it does seem like that might be changing a bit. Even if it is, at #25 the Vikings should have a shot at one of the best guards in the draft. It's a great opportunity to address the position so I'm guessing they will draft defense. :) They have needs there too, of course but it's WAY past time to address OG with a top-notch prospect and it would be nice to see them do it this year.
0 x

User avatar
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 11952
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii
x 266

Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by S197 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:26 pm

Extend Cousins?!?! The guy was strip sacked in the PRO BOWL.

Kidding.... Kidding.... Nice job as always PHP.

Daniels is an interesting FA. He was pretty dominant when he played us but does have health concerns. Seems like a good risk/reward choice.

I'm with you on rolling the dice on O'Neill at LT and letting Reiff go. He may have not given up a lot of sacks but that's just because it was a sprint between him and our interior on who could let a rusher in faster. Maybe if he takes a paycut but no way at the amount he's going to get.

Also agree it's time to move on from Linval. He was a great signing but rush D has significantly dropped off and that's really all he's good for.

No way Hurts falls to the 6th. Maybe if Lamar and Watson flopped but this is a copycat league and someone will gamble on him earlier. I will be FLOORED if Spielman drafts a QB. I would put a lot of money he doesn't before the 5th round.

Hypothetical for you, if Tua falls to 25 do you pull the trigger?
0 x

User avatar
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7397
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 360

Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:09 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:32 pm

Well, one is a RG, one is a LT. I have different expectations from them, as they face different challenges. So does the entirety of the NFL.
Fair enough.
I don't think the Vikings will replace Kline this season. It would only save 1.5 million to cut him, and as you pointed out, they have too many other holes to fill. Reiff is a better candidate for being cut, because of his contract, but as I have said, I don't think that makes the line better and again, just creates another hole to fill. If the next franchise LT comes along in the draft or the next great RG, I want the Vikings to take them. That is all I am saying.
Yeah I mean cutting Kline is definitely out of the cards IMO. At least I would hope. Cutting Reiff doesnt necessarily make the line better no. But I feel like if we're just replacing one "bad" lineman at a time each year, it's going to be hard to ever get to lets say a top 10 OL. Obviously this year I would think it's Elflein that is replaced and rightfully so. But if we really want to see an improvement up front, fixing one OL position a year isnt going to do it. One thing I will say regarding cutting Reiff is if they do, they better have a damn good plan in return. Whether it's Vaitai, moving Oneill, something crazy like trading for Trent Williams or drafting one early. If I had the choice I would cut Reiff. Will the Vikings cut Reiff, I would say it's a solid 70% no they wont. I have a weird feeling they are going to restructure him and move him to LG which I dont know if I am crazy about. But at this rate, I feel like the chances of them hunting for a new LT is as high as finding a new LG. Because moving Reiff or cutting Reiff creates that hole.
LG is a whole other story. They absolutely need find Elf's replacement in the draft. The good FA guards like Thuney are going to be grossly over priced and so are the mediocre ones. To finally get better at that spot, they need to invest draft capital into it. That is how the line will significantly improve over this season.
Oh yeah I agree that was why I wasnt fuming on here last year when we werent signing a "big name" OL early in free agency. Because this happens every year where guys like Billy Turner and Bobby Hart land big contracts and they are horrible offensive lineman. I mean hell, Matt Kalil landed $55 million when he showed he was one of the worst, if not the worst, LT in the NFL when he was here. This is a huge reason why I was such a fan of the Kline signing. Because 1.) He's always been known for his pass blocking and 2.) compared to what most guards get in FA, Kline was dirt cheap.

I also know that last year Saffold was at the top of many lists on who we should try and sign. Just to put that in perspective and just to further prove my point when it comes to FA not being the answer, Saffold landed a $44 million contract. He's averaging $11 million a year. Kline is averaging $5.1 million a year. So Saffold is averaging more than double what Kline is getting. Saffold gave up 6 sacks this year and was an absolute liability in the first half of the year. He improved towards the end of the year but so did Kline grading out as a top 5 pass blocking guard. And just to add the cherry on top, Saffold played in between Ben Jones (one of the best centers in the NFL) and Taylor Lewan one of the better LTs in the NFL. Kline played in between Bradbury who was just as bad pass blocking as Elflein was and O'Neill who is good. But the point is, Saffold played next to a better tandem that Saffold did and Saffold was arguably worse than Kline was. I think Saffold gained a lot of higher grades at years end because of how Henry was playing too. You almost dont need to block for that guy he's so good. He's a man amongst boys.

So in the end, is Kline's contract really too much? When you look at it this way, no not at all. It's actually pretty darn good given what we got out of him. Whereas Saffold or most other grossly overpaid FA lineman out there, their contracts are nowhere near worth it and the chance of them ever playing out that entire contract are slim. So yeah I agree we need to heavily invest in drafting offensive lineman, not signing them. Solid stop gaps like Kline are fine but to pay top dollar for middle of the road or worse offensive lineman is not. I'm sure there will be a few guys on here in the early stages of free agency upset with Spielman because he's not signing offensive lineman and other teams are but I'm glad he does that to be honest.

It's just this is where we have to pick our poison. Getting someone like Bredson in my mock is a great hit for the 2nd-3rd round. If we're looking for a LT, you almost have to go round 1. Maybe 2 but that's a stretch given where we pick. So if we want to go LT in the draft, positions like DT and CB are going to have to wait chances are. So I guess the biggest question is, what is the best position in FA where we can get an immediate impact player, CB, DT, or OL? Because I dont think we can just address these 3 big needs entirely in the draft. I feel like we need to eliminate at least one via FA.
0 x
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri

User avatar
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7397
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 360

Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:29 am

S197 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:26 pm
Extend Cousins?!?! The guy was strip sacked in the PRO BOWL.

Kidding.... Kidding.... Nice job as always PHP.

Daniels is an interesting FA. He was pretty dominant when he played us but does have health concerns. Seems like a good risk/reward choice.

I'm with you on rolling the dice on O'Neill at LT and letting Reiff go. He may have not given up a lot of sacks but that's just because it was a sprint between him and our interior on who could let a rusher in faster. Maybe if he takes a paycut but no way at the amount he's going to get.

Also agree it's time to move on from Linval. He was a great signing but rush D has significantly dropped off and that's really all he's good for.

No way Hurts falls to the 6th. Maybe if Lamar and Watson flopped but this is a copycat league and someone will gamble on him earlier. I will be FLOORED if Spielman drafts a QB. I would put a lot of money he doesn't before the 5th round.

Hypothetical for you, if Tua falls to 25 do you pull the trigger?
Thanks man I appreciate it. Yeah Hurts is more wishful thinking. I should have put him at one of our 4th round picks and addressed a position like DE in the 6th, especially given how we do well drafting pass rushers late (Odenigbo and Weatherly)

As for Tua, whew that's a tough one. I would have to say yes? I dont know it also depends on what we did in free agency to address some needs. I mean out of the big 3 positions of need (guard, DT and CB), we are not deep at guard and corner at all. DT we may be able to bump down the road because we dont have any stars but enough contributors like Jaleel, Watts, Mata'afa, Holmes and say we sign Daniels.

But I'll send another one back at ya.....if Kinlaw and Tua are both sitting there at 25, who do you take?
0 x
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri

User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6427
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 209

Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by VikingLord » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:46 am

S197 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:26 pm
Hypothetical for you, if Tua falls to 25 do you pull the trigger?
The only way Tua drops anywhere near 25 is if he has serious health concerns that would have been confirmed by multiple teams. If that were to happen, I don't think Spielman could draft him either.

But, if by some miracle he doesn't have health concerns and drops to 25 for some other reason (what that would be I can't imagine, but let's say there was one), Spielman would have to pull the trigger IMHO.

If Tua checks out medically he's gone in the top 10.
0 x

StumpHunter
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 172

Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:52 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:09 am


It's just this is where we have to pick our poison. Getting someone like Bredson in my mock is a great hit for the 2nd-3rd round. If we're looking for a LT, you almost have to go round 1. Maybe 2 but that's a stretch given where we pick. So if we want to go LT in the draft, positions like DT and CB are going to have to wait chances are. So I guess the biggest question is, what is the best position in FA where we can get an immediate impact player, CB, DT, or OL? Because I dont think we can just address these 3 big needs entirely in the draft. I feel like we need to eliminate at least one via FA.
I think we are in one of those great/bad positions to be in where we can go BPA and it is probably going to fill a need. LT, guard, DT and DE could all make a big impact year one.

CB is also a need, but rookie CBs don't seem to do well in Zimmer's system.
0 x

StumpHunter
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 172

Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:54 am

VikingLord wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:46 am
S197 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:26 pm
Hypothetical for you, if Tua falls to 25 do you pull the trigger?
The only way Tua drops anywhere near 25 is if he has serious health concerns that would have been confirmed by multiple teams. If that were to happen, I don't think Spielman could draft him either.

But, if by some miracle he doesn't have health concerns and drops to 25 for some other reason (what that would be I can't imagine, but let's say there was one), Spielman would have to pull the trigger IMHO.

If Tua checks out medically he's gone in the top 10.
Assuming he is healthy, they would need to trade up for him to get him. Which they should do if the Vikings really like him.
0 x

User avatar
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 11952
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii
x 266

Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by S197 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:08 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:29 am
S197 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:26 pm
Extend Cousins?!?! The guy was strip sacked in the PRO BOWL.

Kidding.... Kidding.... Nice job as always PHP.

Daniels is an interesting FA. He was pretty dominant when he played us but does have health concerns. Seems like a good risk/reward choice.

I'm with you on rolling the dice on O'Neill at LT and letting Reiff go. He may have not given up a lot of sacks but that's just because it was a sprint between him and our interior on who could let a rusher in faster. Maybe if he takes a paycut but no way at the amount he's going to get.

Also agree it's time to move on from Linval. He was a great signing but rush D has significantly dropped off and that's really all he's good for.

No way Hurts falls to the 6th. Maybe if Lamar and Watson flopped but this is a copycat league and someone will gamble on him earlier. I will be FLOORED if Spielman drafts a QB. I would put a lot of money he doesn't before the 5th round.

Hypothetical for you, if Tua falls to 25 do you pull the trigger?
Thanks man I appreciate it. Yeah Hurts is more wishful thinking. I should have put him at one of our 4th round picks and addressed a position like DE in the 6th, especially given how we do well drafting pass rushers late (Odenigbo and Weatherly)

As for Tua, whew that's a tough one. I would have to say yes? I dont know it also depends on what we did in free agency to address some needs. I mean out of the big 3 positions of need (guard, DT and CB), we are not deep at guard and corner at all. DT we may be able to bump down the road because we dont have any stars but enough contributors like Jaleel, Watts, Mata'afa, Holmes and say we sign Daniels.

But I'll send another one back at ya.....if Kinlaw and Tua are both sitting there at 25, who do you take?
I'm biased as Tua and I went to the same school. Reason I ask is we've seen guys unexpectedly drop like Rodgers so you never really know especially with his health concerns. I think it would be a really good fit for him and the team as he wouldn't need to play his rookie season and can take his time recovering and getting used to the speed of the NFL. He's still had 4 years thereafter on a rookie deal. So I'd take Tua, but I admit I'm not very impartial.
0 x

User avatar
fiestavike
Hall of Fame Inductee
Posts: 4069
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:03 am
x 126

Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by fiestavike » Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:38 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:54 am
VikingLord wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:46 am


The only way Tua drops anywhere near 25 is if he has serious health concerns that would have been confirmed by multiple teams. If that were to happen, I don't think Spielman could draft him either.

But, if by some miracle he doesn't have health concerns and drops to 25 for some other reason (what that would be I can't imagine, but let's say there was one), Spielman would have to pull the trigger IMHO.

If Tua checks out medically he's gone in the top 10.
Assuming he is healthy, they would need to trade up for him to get him. Which they should do if the Vikings really like him.
Anybody have an idea what it would take to move up from 25 to around the 10 range if a QB they like is still available?
0 x

StumpHunter
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 172

Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:32 am

fiestavike wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:38 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:54 am


Assuming he is healthy, they would need to trade up for him to get him. Which they should do if the Vikings really like him.
Anybody have an idea what it would take to move up from 25 to around the 10 range if a QB they like is still available?
You bet. The Chiefs pretty much did just that in 2017 to get Mahomes.

This year's first, a 3rd, and next year's first. Well worth it if you think he is the next great QB.
0 x

User avatar
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7397
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 360

Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:41 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:32 am
fiestavike wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:38 am


Anybody have an idea what it would take to move up from 25 to around the 10 range if a QB they like is still available?
You bet. The Chiefs pretty much did just that in 2017 to get Mahomes.

This year's first, a 3rd, and next year's first. Well worth it if you think he is the next great QB.
I'm not sure if I see another Mahomes in this draft though. They all have potential but who knows.

-Burrow is off the board given he's projected to go #1 overall (where Mahomes wasnt).

-As for Herbert, I like him and then I dont like him. I have very mixed feelings when it comes to him as an NFL QB.

-Tua I am a little higher on. One underrated reason for us drafting Tua, Brian O'Neill now becomes our "blindside" protector. No position switch needed with Reiff and when Reiff gets burned, Tua can see it coming. Where as someone like Cousins or any right handed QB cant. Tua would be a pretty smart pick if you think about it. The next question is, is he healthy and if he falls, how far would it be? And then of course what do you give up for him.

-As for Love, Fromm and Eason, they are all wildcards. Love shows a lot of promise but struggles to read the field and cycle through progressions, Eason is pretty raw (similar to a Drew Lock) and Fromm is your safe, game manager type QB.
0 x
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri

User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6427
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 209

Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by VikingLord » Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:37 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:41 am
Tua would be a pretty smart pick if you think about it. The next question is, is he healthy and if he falls, how far would it be? And then of course what do you give up for him.
If healthy Tua should go no later than #5. He will be the 2nd QB off the board. It will take a king's ransom to move up from #25 to get him IMHO.
0 x

User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6427
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 209

Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by VikingLord » Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:41 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:32 am
You bet. The Chiefs pretty much did just that in 2017 to get Mahomes.

This year's first, a 3rd, and next year's first. Well worth it if you think he is the next great QB.
A very expensive gamble for a team that has some dire needs along the OL and DL and could use some depth in the secondary and at WR too.

I am not a big fan of going all in for a savior. The time the Vikings have tried it it hasn't worked out well, and it seems to work out relatively rarely for most teams. You're gambling on something that can't be known, no matter how sure it might look.
0 x

User avatar
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7397
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 360

Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:13 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:41 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:32 am
You bet. The Chiefs pretty much did just that in 2017 to get Mahomes.

This year's first, a 3rd, and next year's first. Well worth it if you think he is the next great QB.
A very expensive gamble for a team that has some dire needs along the OL and DL and could use some depth in the secondary and at WR too.

I am not a big fan of going all in for a savior. The time the Vikings have tried it it hasn't worked out well, and it seems to work out relatively rarely for most teams. You're gambling on something that can't be known, no matter how sure it might look.
Agreed. This is why I ultimately decided to extend Cousins in this mock because we need a lot more than just depth in the secondary, our OL is still a mess and our DL could very well be in a mess if Griffen and Joseph are gone. There is a very good chance we are extremely weak at one of those positions next year if we not only take a QB in the first round but trade away a bunch to do it.
0 x
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri

StumpHunter
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 172

Re: PHP's Early Mock Offseason

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:49 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:41 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:32 am
You bet. The Chiefs pretty much did just that in 2017 to get Mahomes.

This year's first, a 3rd, and next year's first. Well worth it if you think he is the next great QB.
A very expensive gamble for a team that has some dire needs along the OL and DL and could use some depth in the secondary and at WR too.

I am not a big fan of going all in for a savior. The time the Vikings have tried it it hasn't worked out well, and it seems to work out relatively rarely for most teams. You're gambling on something that can't be known, no matter how sure it might look.
I don't think the Vikings have ever gone all in on a QB. Not like KC did.

If you look back at the teams that have traded up with significant picks to get their guy, it has actually gone pretty well recently:

Philly - won the SB 2 seasons later
LA - went to the SB 3 seasons later
KC - won the SB 3 seasons later
0 x