Should the Vikings Trade for Joe Burrow?

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Re: Should the Vikings Trade for Joe Burrow?

Post by VikingLord » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:47 pm

Mothman wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:29 pm
To touch on what Pondering and Kapp were discussing: I don't know if the team needs to rebuild, reload or regroup. Those terms mean different things to different people. However, they clearly need to level-up. That's going to take more game-changing players, including at QB. It might take more than that.

PS.) I seized on "in the mix" to make my point, not to nitpick. I realize you may not have meant it quite the way I used it.
Well, for me "in the mix" means the team doesn't have to be completely blown up. If the missing ingredient is a special QB, and it's likely to take a few years of seasoning for said QB to be ready to lead the Vikings to the promised land, then it might be best if the Vikings did bet the farm for someone to just let him sit and learn behind Cousins while trying to remain competitive. There shouldn't be a need to regress to a 5+ win season for that to happen even if Spielman trades every pick to get Burrow.

But my main point is, and you seem to allude to it as well, that finding the special QB in a draft is a tall order. If it were obvious who those players would be, then every consensus #1 player selected over the years would have become first team all pros for whoever selected them. Guys like Mahomes and Wilson would have gone #1 in the years they came out, as would Rodgers.

I question the home run swing because I think time has proven it doesn't work, or, at least if it does, the effect is short term for the most part. People criticize Spielman for going out and signing Cousins to a huge guaranteed deal all the time. If that isn't the definition of a home run swing, I don't know what is. Has it worked out?

When it comes to the draft, taking that big swing when your first pick in the first round is the 25th pick is even more risky, because the guy you're banking on has no pro track record on which to base the move. Maybe he lit the college game on fire. Great. Doesn't mean he will or even can do the same in the pros. At least with the Cousins move there was a pro track record on which to base things, and, for that move in particular, I think it's turned out exactly as could have been predicted. That being Cousins is capable of winning games when the supporting pieces do their part, while he fails to get them over the hump when the supporting pieces fail.

If you really believe the Vikings need to take the swing and potentially sacrifice improvement in other areas to do so, that's fine, but I can't go down that road. It just doesn't work, at least not without an obvious can't-miss prospect. Even then I think the tradeoffs likely don't make it work, because it is a team game and in the end its rare for a single player to be able to impact the game enough to overcome objective deficiencies in other areas of a team. The pro game especially is far too sophisticated for that approach to be successful for very long for 99% of the players out there. Even Tom Brady needs help to get to and win Superbowls.
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Re: Should the Vikings Trade for Joe Burrow?

Post by Mothman » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:32 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:45 pm
Somewhat related to Joe Burrow ...

Did you guys see what that idiot OBJ did after the LSU win over Clemson? According to multiple sources, including ESPN, he was on the field HANDING OUT CASH to some of the LSU players.

I mean, how stupid can a guy be? If this is true, it's a clear NCAA violation, made potentially in front of millions of people. Not surprisingly, LSU school officials are saying the money was fake, but that's not the story Burrow told on Barstool Sports' Pardon My Take podcast, when he said, "I'm not a student-athlete anymore, so I can say yeah," The only saving grace for LSU is that it'll be nearly impossible to prove the money is real.

Unbelievable.

On another note, apparently Joe Burrow has been partying non-stop since winning the title, claiming he's "only slept for about 45 minutes."

Yep. Just the guy I'd want to draft.
That gets a great great big "Yikes" on all counts.
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Re: Should the Vikings Trade for Joe Burrow?

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:35 pm

Walter Football says he projects out to be a guy like Andy Dalton, Derick Carr and is most like Mitch Trubisky of all NFL starters.

If you are a Cincy fan, you read that and must want to vomit.
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Re: Should the Vikings Trade for Joe Burrow?

Post by Mothman » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:07 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:47 pm
Well, for me "in the mix" means the team doesn't have to be completely blown up. If the missing ingredient is a special QB, and it's likely to take a few years of seasoning for said QB to be ready to lead the Vikings to the promised land, then it might be best if the Vikings did bet the farm for someone to just let him sit and learn behind Cousins while trying to remain competitive. There shouldn't be a need to regress to a 5+ win season for that to happen even if Spielman trades every pick to get Burrow.

But my main point is, and you seem to allude to it as well, that finding the special QB in a draft is a tall order. If it were obvious who those players would be, then every consensus #1 player selected over the years would have become first team all pros for whoever selected them. Guys like Mahomes and Wilson would have gone #1 in the years they came out, as would Rodgers.

I question the home run swing because I think time has proven it doesn't work, or, at least if it does, the effect is short term for the most part. People criticize Spielman for going out and signing Cousins to a huge guaranteed deal all the time. If that isn't the definition of a home run swing, I don't know what is. Has it worked out?

When it comes to the draft, taking that big swing when your first pick in the first round is the 25th pick is even more risky, because the guy you're banking on has no pro track record on which to base the move. Maybe he lit the college game on fire. Great. Doesn't mean he will or even can do the same in the pros. At least with the Cousins move there was a pro track record on which to base things, and, for that move in particular, I think it's turned out exactly as could have been predicted. That being Cousins is capable of winning games when the supporting pieces do their part, while he fails to get them over the hump when the supporting pieces fail.

If you really believe the Vikings need to take the swing and potentially sacrifice improvement in other areas to do so, that's fine, but I can't go down that road. It just doesn't work, at least not without an obvious can't-miss prospect. Even then I think the tradeoffs likely don't make it work, because it is a team game and in the end its rare for a single player to be able to impact the game enough to overcome objective deficiencies in other areas of a team. The pro game especially is far too sophisticated for that approach to be successful for very long for 99% of the players out there. Even Tom Brady needs help to get to and win Superbowls.
Excellent post, Edward.

Obviously, your last point is right on the money. It takes a strong team to win it all.

Regarding home run swings: like most things in football, I think they need to be strategic. Swinging for the fences too often or unwisely can just result in striking out. When it comes to player personnel, It's probably best to "wait for your pitch" but the Vikes should always be on the lookout for that QB who is worthy of the home run swing and can be elite. Thats aid, I agree that spending the capitol to move from the late first round to the top is only going to work out very rarely. It's a pretty big roll of the dice.

I'm also thinking of the "big swing" in an organizational sense, not just as moves for individual players. That's why I wrote what i did about being in the mix. They really do need to find the next level as an organization. For most of their existence, they've avoided the cellar and been a pretty competitive team. They could use a home run at QB but I think they need it even more as a franchise. Put simply: I don't think they should be afraid to tear down something that's working okay to build something better. I think they need to stop looking for missing pieces that might complete a puzzle and re-think their whole approach to puzzle-building. I hope that makes sense.
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Re: Should the Vikings Trade for Joe Burrow?

Post by Fat Stupid Loser » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:41 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:28 pm
Fat Stupid Loser wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:34 pm

Worked out great for the Skins. All drafts are crap shoots. Really easy to miss on the sure thing prospects. Giving up that much for an unproven player is always a mistake. I wouldn't do it.
We could spend another season with Kirk, let him go, take compensatory picks, hope we can draft a decent QB. I'm okay with the risk of multiple 1st round picks if they think they can get a shot at a potentially great QB. I'm tired of this team flopping along and getting nowhere. Go big or go home.
You are not Bruce Allen are you? :tongue:
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Re: Should the Vikings Trade for Joe Burrow?

Post by Purple Domination » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:40 pm

If we ended up with Joe, I think “Joe Burrow is too immobile for today’s NFL” would be a common refrain around here in a few short years. Just a feeling I have. And that is also my biggest concern with Kirk Cousins.
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Re: Should the Vikings Trade for Joe Burrow?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:03 pm

Mothman wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:32 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:45 pm
Somewhat related to Joe Burrow ...

Did you guys see what that idiot OBJ did after the LSU win over Clemson? According to multiple sources, including ESPN, he was on the field HANDING OUT CASH to some of the LSU players.

I mean, how stupid can a guy be? If this is true, it's a clear NCAA violation, made potentially in front of millions of people. Not surprisingly, LSU school officials are saying the money was fake, but that's not the story Burrow told on Barstool Sports' Pardon My Take podcast, when he said, "I'm not a student-athlete anymore, so I can say yeah," The only saving grace for LSU is that it'll be nearly impossible to prove the money is real.

Unbelievable.

On another note, apparently Joe Burrow has been partying non-stop since winning the title, claiming he's "only slept for about 45 minutes."

Yep. Just the guy I'd want to draft.
That gets a great great big "Yikes" on all counts.
Yeah same here. Well that’s what I heard Jared Goff did after they went to the SB and he got paid. Could be a reason his production drastically dipped this year. I read somewhere that he just didn’t seem into it and was partying quite often
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Re: Should the Vikings Trade for Joe Burrow?

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:52 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:06 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:51 pm
There is one current player who has first-round value and then some.

Stefon Diggs.

Diggs was involved in trade rumors with a couple of different teams, and he's been rumored to be worth at least a first and another lower-round pick. Obviously he's not enough by himself to garner the No. 1 pick, but package him with our pick at 25 and our second rounder at 57, and you're getting in the ballpark.

Here's why. Let's say Diggs is worth a mid-first-round pick and a mid-second. Rumors were that the Jets were considering such an offer back in October, when Diggs was ripping on Cousins and seemed unhappy. That's about 1,420 points on Jimmy Johnson's famous draft value chart. The 25 is worth 720 and the 57 is worth 330. Add it up, and that puts you at more than 2,500 points.

The No. 1 overall pick is worth 3,000. So packaging Diggs with the 25 and the 57 isn't that far off. Whether Cincinnati would bite on such a deal is certainly up for debate, but if the Vikings are truly exploring all options, it's something to consider.

How much do they want Joe Burrow? I doubt we'll find out.
Trading Diggs would be idiotic, if Vikings trade Diggs, Vikings would only have 1 good receiver on the roster and Vikings do not have a good reliable 3rd receiver, of course, Vikings could draft to replace Diggs and a 3rd receiver but they would be a crapshoot, do you want to be stuck with just Theilen and 2 unknowns next year?
I would do this in a heartbeat. Diggs is amazing but WRs are a dime a dozen. QBs, game-changing QBs are not. I would give the farm up and address WR in FAs. 2020 will be lost year anyway, it doesn't matter who we add to AT. Maybe we end up with top 10 pick and we can add another pass rusher. Until you have Oline, Dline and QB fixed, we arent going anywhere. We have a bunch of talent in places that do not matter. Look at what all the damn CB first rounders netted us. Look at all the LB talent. None of it matters until you fix the oline and dline. If we become dominate there, we can add anyone to our roster and win games convincingly.
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Re: Should the Vikings Trade for Joe Burrow?

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:54 pm

Purple Domination wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:40 pm
If we ended up with Joe, I think “Joe Burrow is too immobile for today’s NFL” would be a common refrain around here in a few short years. Just a feeling I have. And that is also my biggest concern with Kirk Cousins.
Kirk isnt immobile. Kirk refuses to run. Huge difference. He ran a 4.84
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Re: Should the Vikings Trade for Joe Burrow?

Post by S197 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:29 am

I didn’t realize Burrow grew up a Vikings fan. He posted a pic of himself in a moss jersey. Not that we would trade up for him but an interesting tidbit.
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Re: Should the Vikings Trade for Joe Burrow?

Post by Frozen Rope » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:19 am

Purplepain2018 wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:45 pm
Will this ever happen? Probably not
Should it happen? Absolutely
QB
After watching QB Joe Burrow most of the year, this kid has everything that an NFL team would want. He has the arm, he is mobile, he can get himself out of trouble and he is a very smart player. The LSU Tigers went 15-0 this year and won the National Title. I know it would take a lot for the Vikings to move from #25 in the draft all the way up to #1. It would probably take at least 2 if not 3 #1 picks and maybe even some players such as Xavier Rhodes, Everson Griffen and Riley Rieff.

Burrow would solve the Vikings quarterback problem for the next 10 to 15 years. If Burrow continues to play as he did his senior season at LSU, the Vikings would be perennial division and Super Bowl favorites. Cousins is not the long term answer for the Vikings at the quarterback position. Burrow is everything that Cousins is not. Cousins has one more year left on his contract and then the Vikings have to make a decision to either extend Cousins or release him and the Vikings would be in the market for a QB anyway. A quarterback like Joe Burrow does not come around that often and there is no way of knowing who would be in the draft next year. The quarterback position is the most important position in pro sports, so why not try and go get the best?

What do you think?
I’m thinking Robert Griffin 3. Giving up that much set the redskins back 10 years.
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Re: Should the Vikings Trade for Joe Burrow?

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:32 pm

Frozen Rope wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:19 am
Purplepain2018 wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:45 pm
Will this ever happen? Probably not
Should it happen? Absolutely
QB
After watching QB Joe Burrow most of the year, this kid has everything that an NFL team would want. He has the arm, he is mobile, he can get himself out of trouble and he is a very smart player. The LSU Tigers went 15-0 this year and won the National Title. I know it would take a lot for the Vikings to move from #25 in the draft all the way up to #1. It would probably take at least 2 if not 3 #1 picks and maybe even some players such as Xavier Rhodes, Everson Griffen and Riley Rieff.

Burrow would solve the Vikings quarterback problem for the next 10 to 15 years. If Burrow continues to play as he did his senior season at LSU, the Vikings would be perennial division and Super Bowl favorites. Cousins is not the long term answer for the Vikings at the quarterback position. Burrow is everything that Cousins is not. Cousins has one more year left on his contract and then the Vikings have to make a decision to either extend Cousins or release him and the Vikings would be in the market for a QB anyway. A quarterback like Joe Burrow does not come around that often and there is no way of knowing who would be in the draft next year. The quarterback position is the most important position in pro sports, so why not try and go get the best?

What do you think?
I’m thinking Robert Griffin 3. Giving up that much set the redskins back 10 years.
They are a bad organization though.

Philly and the Rams certainly didn't get set back when they traded the farm for their QBs. KCs gave up a lot to move up and get Mahomes, I don't think they regret it.
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Re: Should the Vikings Trade for Joe Burrow?

Post by fiestavike » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:43 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:32 pm
Frozen Rope wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:19 am


I’m thinking Robert Griffin 3. Giving up that much set the redskins back 10 years.
They are a bad organization though.

Philly and the Rams certainly didn't get set back when they traded the farm for their QBs. KCs gave up a lot to move up and get Mahomes, I don't think they regret it.
Its all going to depend on whether or not the pick works out, but its time for the Vikings to find a franchise QB.
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Re: Should the Vikings Trade for Joe Burrow?

Post by Frozen Rope » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:04 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:32 pm
Frozen Rope wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:19 am


I’m thinking Robert Griffin 3. Giving up that much set the redskins back 10 years.
They are a bad organization though.

Philly and the Rams certainly didn't get set back when they traded the farm for their QBs. KCs gave up a lot to move up and get Mahomes, I don't think they regret it.
Mahomes is the real deal. But he has Andy Reid and a great supporting cast. As for Carson Wentz and Goff, how good are they? Middle of the pack QB’s at best. Mahomes landed with the right team. It’s a crap shoot. Right QB, right supporting cast, right coaching (think Goff/McVey). All the cards have to fall just right. Doesn’t mean it can’t happen, you just have to be lucky and then hope he doesn’t get hurt. They are far and few between. Look at Tannehill? A journeyman who got a break at the right time with a monster running back who made it to the AFC championship game. It sometimes isn’t always about drafting a new QB.
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Re: Should the Vikings Trade for Joe Burrow?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:46 pm

Purple Domination wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:40 pm
If we ended up with Joe, I think “Joe Burrow is too immobile for today’s NFL” would be a common refrain around here in a few short years. Just a feeling I have. And that is also my biggest concern with Kirk Cousins.
Huh?

Burrow is very mobile. Did you watch the championship game? If Cousins had half his mobility, he'd be MVP.
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