Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

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CharVike
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by CharVike » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:27 pm

Dames wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:42 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:22 am


I do think loyalty is important Zimmer, but I do not think he would make his team worse because of that loyalty. Number one is winning for all coaches, then comes the other stuff.

This also implies that when Zimmer says "every team but one schemed to stop Barr last year, and the only one that didn't, we got 10 sacks" he is either lying or very bad at understanding the film he watches.
I agree. I doubt think it's a factor. Barr had a contract in place with the Jets that was worth more than the Vikings paid him. There was a market for him.

It felt like he was too loyal to Rhodes for a while this year, but I'm guessing that had more to do with who was playing behind him. As the year went on, Rhodes plays less snaps, and that clearly doesn't suggest being loyal to a fault. Rhodes earned the contract he was given, even though he has fallen off since.

Rudy is probably overpaid for what he gave us on the field this year, although the 2nd half of the year he made a big impact. But, as someone stated earlier, he is tremendous off-the-field. There is value in having that kind of player on your team. I would guess that influenced his contact quite a bit.

Anyway, I'm not buying the argument Yikes.
he is tremendous off-the-field. Look I guess I understand the value there. But you also take away your ability to build the team when CAP is used for other stuff besides playing football. What FA are we missing out on because of his contract? Can't Wilf just employ him as a staff guy for a few million and get the same off-the-field benefit? For Barr. If he's that good we should be able to get the capital to move up into the top spot for a QB by trading him.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:55 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:22 am
YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:18 pm


Im writing this in caps.
MIKE ZIMMER OVERVALUES HIS PLAYERS DUE TO LOYALTY!!
I do think loyalty is important Zimmer, but I do not think he would make his team worse because of that loyalty. Number one is winning for all coaches, then comes the other stuff.

This also implies that when Zimmer says "every team but one schemed to stop Barr last year, and the only one that didn't, we got 10 sacks" he is either lying or very bad at understanding the film he watches.
You assume that he is purposefully making the team worse because of loyalty. Thats not how this works. He overvalued Barr and as a result the Vikings overpaid him. The statement about everyteam game planning for him = he is worth the contract given is also flawed. Every team game planned for Luke and Mack. However, they are both effective despite this game planning. Teams plan for him and are able to eliminate him convincingly. That's not worth top tier LB money. He simply isnt an impact play whether he is game-planned for or not. His salary would be better used on a top notched guard.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by CharVike » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:50 am

YikesVikes wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:55 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:22 am


I do think loyalty is important Zimmer, but I do not think he would make his team worse because of that loyalty. Number one is winning for all coaches, then comes the other stuff.

This also implies that when Zimmer says "every team but one schemed to stop Barr last year, and the only one that didn't, we got 10 sacks" he is either lying or very bad at understanding the film he watches.
You assume that he is purposefully making the team worse because of loyalty. Thats not how this works. He overvalued Barr and as a result the Vikings overpaid him. The statement about everyteam game planning for him = he is worth the contract given is also flawed. Every team game planned for Luke and Mack. However, they are both effective despite this game planning. Teams plan for him and are able to eliminate him convincingly. That's not worth top tier LB money. He simply isnt an impact play whether he is game-planned for or not. His salary would be better used on a top notched guard.
This is probably more Speilman. But Zim is also lying. I forget who the 10 sacks were against. Without lookng it up it was some joke team. If we did that against the Pack the division would be ours. That's how a CAP is mismanaged. You can't pay avg players top CAP.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by VikingLord » Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:06 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:22 am
I do think loyalty is important Zimmer, but I do not think he would make his team worse because of that loyalty. Number one is winning for all coaches, then comes the other stuff.

This also implies that when Zimmer says "every team but one schemed to stop Barr last year, and the only one that didn't, we got 10 sacks" he is either lying or very bad at understanding the film he watches.
Who schemes to "stop" a non-rush LB, no matter how talented said LB is?

I mean, if Barr came after the passer frequently ala Khalil Mack I could understand Zimmer's claim, but that's not how the Vikings used him. They used him primarily as a standard outside LB, a guy who is tasked with shutting down outside runs and covering the flats and within 10 yards of the LOS.

Also, the notion that the Vikings overpaid for Barr is interesting (not saying you said that, but just that I read it in the thread). IIRC, Barr took less to remain a Viking, which means the Vikings paid less than market rate for him. That could be viewed as overpaying, but it could also be viewed as a great deal. I guess it mostly depends on how Barr performed relative to his peers based on the money he earned. I haven't looked to see if such stats exist, but I'm guessing something like pro football focus probably rates LB performance and ranks accordingly. If Barr is being paid like a top outside LB, did he perform like a top outside LB? That's the only metric that can speak to the value of the deal and whether it was a good one IMHO.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by CanUDiggsIt? » Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:32 pm

We ALL know that Zimmer has been misusing Barr's talents for basically his entire career. He can be right up there with Mack as a pure rusher, but he is too often in coverage and gets beat very easily (as this is NOT his forte). He knows it, we know it, but somehow Zim doesn't. I don't understand. He can be like a Shaq Barrett-type if we let him, just as the Buccaneers let him play his game this past season!
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:08 pm

CanUDiggsIt? wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:32 pm
We ALL know that Zimmer has been misusing Barr's talents for basically his entire career. He can be right up there with Mack as a pure rusher, but he is too often in coverage and gets beat very easily (as this is NOT his forte). He knows it, we know it, but somehow Zim doesn't. I don't understand. He can be like a Shaq Barrett-type if we let him, just as the Buccaneers let him play his game this past season!
You are crazy if you think these guys are similar. Barr is soft. I have seen him stonewalled by a RB too often. He does his best to avoid contact and often tries to go around these guys instead of through them, in the meantime, Mack is manhandling tackles.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by Raz » Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:02 pm

It's been to long ago but didn't he get drafted pretty hi I thought it was a strange pick for a 4 3 defense. He has been on and off production wise not really worth the cash IMHO.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by OregonVike » Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:38 am

Xavier has deteriorated greatly, he’s cooked…cut that guy. He was targeted so much this year, the League knows it. I’d roll with Hill & Boyd over X, the $ is redic. Draft a CB, not in the 1st necessarily because I believe there is depth in that position in rounds 2-4. We need a penetrating 3-tech & a Nose too. In general I think we need younger guys on D that have juice & spend $ on O in free agency. We got enough core guys on D, that can bring young guys with juice to help us. I think you need young war daddy’s on D, too many paid guys on D = comfortable. Get a draft pick & FA on the OL & we’re good. It’s not dire… we beat GB early (bad call & bad ball by Cousins) & beat Chi if it meant something & we’re 12-4. Few plays here-there. Stay positive boys! I haven’t seen a Super Bowl since I was 8 y/old 77’, Frickin Raiders….Skol Brothers
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by CharVike » Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:11 am

OregonVike wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:38 am
Xavier has deteriorated greatly, he’s cooked…cut that guy. He was targeted so much this year, the League knows it. I’d roll with Hill & Boyd over X, the $ is redic. Draft a CB, not in the 1st necessarily because I believe there is depth in that position in rounds 2-4. We need a penetrating 3-tech & a Nose too. In general I think we need younger guys on D that have juice & spend $ on O in free agency. We got enough core guys on D, that can bring young guys with juice to help us. I think you need young war daddy’s on D, too many paid guys on D = comfortable. Get a draft pick & FA on the OL & we’re good. It’s not dire… we beat GB early (bad call & bad ball by Cousins) & beat Chi if it meant something & we’re 12-4. Few plays here-there. Stay positive boys! I haven’t seen a Super Bowl since I was 8 y/old 77’, Frickin Raiders….Skol Brothers
We have a good team and proved it by hitting the road and beating the Saints. IMO the most disappointing loss was that 2nd GB game a home. I never look for immediate help from the draft. Your 1st round pick should do something. I can't knock Bradberry or O'neil. They came in and contributed right off the bat. The guy that needs to step up is Hughes. I would imagine LG needs to be taken care of. Elf was embarrassing.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by Bowhunting Viking » Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:30 am

CharVike wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:11 am
OregonVike wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:38 am
Xavier has deteriorated greatly, he’s cooked…cut that guy. He was targeted so much this year, the League knows it. I’d roll with Hill & Boyd over X, the $ is redic. Draft a CB, not in the 1st necessarily because I believe there is depth in that position in rounds 2-4. We need a penetrating 3-tech & a Nose too. In general I think we need younger guys on D that have juice & spend $ on O in free agency. We got enough core guys on D, that can bring young guys with juice to help us. I think you need young war daddy’s on D, too many paid guys on D = comfortable. Get a draft pick & FA on the OL & we’re good. It’s not dire… we beat GB early (bad call & bad ball by Cousins) & beat Chi if it meant something & we’re 12-4. Few plays here-there. Stay positive boys! I haven’t seen a Super Bowl since I was 8 y/old 77’, Frickin Raiders….Skol Brothers
We have a good team and proved it by hitting the road and beating the Saints. IMO the most disappointing loss was that 2nd GB game a home. I never look for immediate help from the draft. Your 1st round pick should do something. I can't knock Bradberry or O'neil. They came in and contributed right off the bat. The guy that needs to step up is Hughes. I would imagine LG needs to be taken care of. Elf was embarrassing.
As usual CharVike I agree with you 100%. First off , I'm an old timer fan and just want us in the SB.. I mean win the SB.. before my 4th quarter comes to 00:00.
I really think Hughes has the talent and potential, if the kid can just stay healthy we could find out.
I honestly believe that Bradbury is going to do the same thing that O'Neil did. He is gonna get bigger and stronger, the game is gonna slow down and come to him, he is gonna be able to stop getting pushed around and manhandled,
and he is gonna improve and be an integral part to our O line the way O'Neil did.
Now on to Elf. Can't agree more on you statement of how much of an embarrassment he has become since his rookie season.
I know last season he tried to come back after the injuries and the 2 surgeries, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt.
Well, this season he was supposed to be totally healthy and ready to go. Wow , what a disappointment that turned into.
I don't know if they will address it in the draft or in FA ( which truly I hope doesn't happen since the majority of the time they end up overpaying for the talent level they recieve in return), but honestly, I hope the answer is already there.
My hope is that Samia is ready to become the guy. I just remember all the raves about him from coaches and teammates. Maybe, just maybe , he will become a cheaper and improved option.
I just look at the weapons this offense has, and how the state of our O line just seems to a big part in preventing the success that seems to be possible.
I am an old school fan who still believes in the old mantra that a Championship team is built from the Inside.
Gonna be interesting to see how it plays out. But I just don't see Elf being an answer to helping that cause either.
At my age, and all these years of sticking by this team as a hard core... I'm tired of "Almost!!". I wanna say " We finally did it!!!"
And finally get that Viking SB tattoo I've wanted my whole life.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by VikingLord » Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:46 am

Bowhunting Viking wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:30 am
I really think Hughes has the talent and potential, if the kid can just stay healthy we could find out.
Hughes has "bust" written all over him IMHO. Can't stay healthy, but even when he has been healthy his coverage is soft he seems to lack confidence. One of the main reasons I liked Hughes when Spielman used a 1st on him was his ability to return punts. In my opinion there was a noticeable dropoff on punt returns when Hughes was in as compared to Sherels. Hughes didn't look confident in that role either.

Injuries suck, and I really can't blame Hughes for the fact he's been unable to stay on the field, but if I saw an impact player in him when he is on the field I would be more optimistic. As it stands, I don't see it.

In retrospect the entire secondary was super disappointing this last season outside of the safeties, and even they struggled at times. But the CB play was horrific across the board. Bad technique. No awareness. Positioning wasn't terrible but the CBs never seemed to know where the ball was. Vikes could use a deep clean in the secondary IMHO. They need that along with a legit DT who can anchor the middle against the run. The LBs and ends are good. The safeties are fine. But they need help in the middle of the line and, as amazing as it is to say this given all the draft capital spent at CB in recent years, they need help at CB.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by CharVike » Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:34 pm

Bowhunting Viking wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:30 am
CharVike wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:11 am

We have a good team and proved it by hitting the road and beating the Saints. IMO the most disappointing loss was that 2nd GB game a home. I never look for immediate help from the draft. Your 1st round pick should do something. I can't knock Bradberry or O'neil. They came in and contributed right off the bat. The guy that needs to step up is Hughes. I would imagine LG needs to be taken care of. Elf was embarrassing.
As usual CharVike I agree with you 100%. First off , I'm an old timer fan and just want us in the SB.. I mean win the SB.. before my 4th quarter comes to 00:00.
I really think Hughes has the talent and potential, if the kid can just stay healthy we could find out.
I honestly believe that Bradbury is going to do the same thing that O'Neil did. He is gonna get bigger and stronger, the game is gonna slow down and come to him, he is gonna be able to stop getting pushed around and manhandled,
and he is gonna improve and be an integral part to our O line the way O'Neil did.
Now on to Elf. Can't agree more on you statement of how much of an embarrassment he has become since his rookie season.
I know last season he tried to come back after the injuries and the 2 surgeries, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt.
Well, this season he was supposed to be totally healthy and ready to go. Wow , what a disappointment that turned into.
I don't know if they will address it in the draft or in FA ( which truly I hope doesn't happen since the majority of the time they end up overpaying for the talent level they recieve in return), but honestly, I hope the answer is already there.
My hope is that Samia is ready to become the guy. I just remember all the raves about him from coaches and teammates. Maybe, just maybe , he will become a cheaper and improved option.
I just look at the weapons this offense has, and how the state of our O line just seems to a big part in preventing the success that seems to be possible.
I am an old school fan who still believes in the old mantra that a Championship team is built from the Inside.
Gonna be interesting to see how it plays out. But I just don't see Elf being an answer to helping that cause either.
At my age, and all these years of sticking by this team as a hard core... I'm tired of "Almost!!". I wanna say " We finally did it!!!"
And finally get that Viking SB tattoo I've wanted my whole life.
Hopefully the SB will happen before it ends for both of us. I'm in the 4th quarter also and time isn't slowing down. Samia could be the surprise guy for us. At least that's who I have my eye on. Hughes is still only 22. This is his make or break year. I'll give him an injury pass for 2019. Our best chance of finding players are the guys that are on the roster already. Maybe it will be Hughes. FA can help also. Signing Kline was a good move. We won't go after the big names which is ok IMO. Moves will be made and I'm sure I'll disagree with some of them. Our focus needs to be on defense. This middle of the road crap isn't nowhere near good enough to give us a chance to make the show. We need top 10 and be able to apply plenty of pressure.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by CharVike » Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:47 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:46 am
Bowhunting Viking wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:30 am
I really think Hughes has the talent and potential, if the kid can just stay healthy we could find out.
Hughes has "bust" written all over him IMHO. Can't stay healthy, but even when he has been healthy his coverage is soft he seems to lack confidence. One of the main reasons I liked Hughes when Spielman used a 1st on him was his ability to return punts. In my opinion there was a noticeable dropoff on punt returns when Hughes was in as compared to Sherels. Hughes didn't look confident in that role either.

Injuries suck, and I really can't blame Hughes for the fact he's been unable to stay on the field, but if I saw an impact player in him when he is on the field I would be more optimistic. As it stands, I don't see it.

In retrospect the entire secondary was super disappointing this last season outside of the safeties, and even they struggled at times. But the CB play was horrific across the board. Bad technique. No awareness. Positioning wasn't terrible but the CBs never seemed to know where the ball was. Vikes could use a deep clean in the secondary IMHO. They need that along with a legit DT who can anchor the middle against the run. The LBs and ends are good. The safeties are fine. But they need help in the middle of the line and, as amazing as it is to say this given all the draft capital spent at CB in recent years, they need help at CB.
Not too many rookie CBs are impact players. One thing he did which I liked was score a defensive TD. That will turn the tide big time. Isn't that an impact play? Most CBs struggle in the beginning. Look at Waynes for an example. Look at Alexander. Hughes needs to do something this year. Maybe he will be a guy to take over one of the spots.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by VikingLord » Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:22 am

CharVike wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:47 pm
Not too many rookie CBs are impact players. One thing he did which I liked was score a defensive TD. That will turn the tide big time. Isn't that an impact play? Most CBs struggle in the beginning. Look at Waynes for an example. Look at Alexander. Hughes needs to do something this year. Maybe he will be a guy to take over one of the spots.
It was an impact play, but if you watch it again you see the QB throw it right to him. It was a terrible throw by the QB. Maybe caused by pressure but I don't remember for sure, but definitely not a ball where Hughes had to show anticipation or great awareness. He was basically the receiver on the play, and the pick was on like the 30 yard line of the opponent, so it was darn near impossible for him not to score on that play.

Since then I've seen nothing from him when he's been healthy.
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Re: Moves the Vikings should make for 2020

Post by CharVike » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:41 am

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:22 am
CharVike wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:47 pm
Not too many rookie CBs are impact players. One thing he did which I liked was score a defensive TD. That will turn the tide big time. Isn't that an impact play? Most CBs struggle in the beginning. Look at Waynes for an example. Look at Alexander. Hughes needs to do something this year. Maybe he will be a guy to take over one of the spots.
It was an impact play, but if you watch it again you see the QB throw it right to him. It was a terrible throw by the QB. Maybe caused by pressure but I don't remember for sure, but definitely not a ball where Hughes had to show anticipation or great awareness. He was basically the receiver on the play, and the pick was on like the 30 yard line of the opponent, so it was darn near impossible for him not to score on that play.

Since then I've seen nothing from him when he's been healthy.
He did catch it at least. I've seen plenty of interceptions even closer than the 30 not returned all the way. Outside of that he didn't show much his rookie year. This year was a waste for him. I watched Carl Lee sit around for years before the light went on. Regardless of all that he needs to be a starter this year and perform well. It's in our best interest for that to happen.
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