If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by CharVike » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:41 am

TSonn wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:51 pm
fiestavike wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:34 am
It would depend how the game has gone up to that point. Kirk typically struggles from the start in the games he struggles in. He seems incredibly uptight, nervous, and tightly wound in those games, pressing extra hard, aiming his passes, reacting skittishly and indecisively when protection breaks down. If he has been 'good Kirk' all game, I would feel pretty good about the possibility of at least getting into field goal range. Realistically, I expect the playoffs to bring out the worst in Kirk Cousins, and for him to play very poorly from the jump.
I agree that Kirk tends to come out tight in "bigger" games. This game, although it's in the playoffs, is like the lowest expectation playoff game Kirk might ever have. There is zero expectation we win this game. So if there were a playoff game for him to get some confidence and let it fly - this is the one. Will Zimmer let him? That's another question.
We all see different things. By the media reports I saw the greatest winning QB Brees look tense and scared. He crumpled but he's the best at home against a defense that was playing a bunch of backups in the secondary. Looked like he was gonna cry. That's a loser if I ever saw one. His backup did much better and got them back in the game. Our team lost two CBs this week and that loser couldn't do it. There talent level was much greater than ours and he couldn't do it. That's a guy who was tense if I ever saw one.
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by VikeFanInEagleLand » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:15 am

CharVike wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:41 am
TSonn wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:51 pm


I agree that Kirk tends to come out tight in "bigger" games. This game, although it's in the playoffs, is like the lowest expectation playoff game Kirk might ever have. There is zero expectation we win this game. So if there were a playoff game for him to get some confidence and let it fly - this is the one. Will Zimmer let him? That's another question.
We all see different things. By the media reports I saw the greatest winning QB Brees look tense and scared. He crumpled but he's the best at home against a defense that was playing a bunch of backups in the secondary. Looked like he was gonna cry. That's a loser if I ever saw one. His backup did much better and got them back in the game. Our team lost two CBs this week and that loser couldn't do it. There talent level was much greater than ours and he couldn't do it. That's a guy who was tense if I ever saw one.
I'll give Kirk credit. He made some good throws, and obviously the throw to Theilen was huge as was the TD to Rudolph. But to say that he had a great game would be exaggerating. You could tell he was nervous throughout most of the game. There were times that the nerves resulted in some bad decisions, and other times bad throws. Doesn't matter. He came through when we needed him to. That along with a good team effort and we are moving on to SF.

I did NOT see a "tense and scared" Brees. I saw a QB that was constantly under pressure and was becoming frustrated as the game went on. He was having to get rid of the ball before he wanted to or he was getting sacked. He did throw an interception that he shouldn't have thrown, but again, that was probably out of frustration as he saw that as one of his better deep possibilities that he had up until that part of the game. He is not a loser. But I'm sure glad his team lost.
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:49 am

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:15 am
CharVike wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:41 am

We all see different things. By the media reports I saw the greatest winning QB Brees look tense and scared. He crumpled but he's the best at home against a defense that was playing a bunch of backups in the secondary. Looked like he was gonna cry. That's a loser if I ever saw one. His backup did much better and got them back in the game. Our team lost two CBs this week and that loser couldn't do it. There talent level was much greater than ours and he couldn't do it. That's a guy who was tense if I ever saw one.
I'll give Kirk credit. He made some good throws, and obviously the throw to Theilen was huge as was the TD to Rudolph. But to say that he had a great game would be exaggerating. You could tell he was nervous throughout most of the game. There were times that the nerves resulted in some bad decisions, and other times bad throws. Doesn't matter. He came through when we needed him to. That along with a good team effort and we are moving on to SF.

I did NOT see a "tense and scared" Brees. I saw a QB that was constantly under pressure and was becoming frustrated as the game went on. He was having to get rid of the ball before he wanted to or he was getting sacked. He did throw an interception that he shouldn't have thrown, but again, that was probably out of frustration as he saw that as one of his better deep possibilities that he had up until that part of the game. He is not a loser. But I'm sure glad his team lost.
Brees has thrown that pick in multiple games this season. It is a throw he used to be able to make, and can't now because of age.

Outside of that throw and the stupid fumble that he absolutely should have tucked and not lost, he played as well as the team around him allowed him too. The Saints are a system and QB driven team, in that they have a very good system that requires a very good QB to run. The Vikings coaching staff absolutely out schemed the system, and Brees didn't have the talent around him to beat to overcome it. Brilliant game plan by Zimmer. Absolutely brilliant.
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by mansquatch » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:05 am

YES
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:25 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:49 am
VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:15 am

I'll give Kirk credit. He made some good throws, and obviously the throw to Theilen was huge as was the TD to Rudolph. But to say that he had a great game would be exaggerating. You could tell he was nervous throughout most of the game. There were times that the nerves resulted in some bad decisions, and other times bad throws. Doesn't matter. He came through when we needed him to. That along with a good team effort and we are moving on to SF.

I did NOT see a "tense and scared" Brees. I saw a QB that was constantly under pressure and was becoming frustrated as the game went on. He was having to get rid of the ball before he wanted to or he was getting sacked. He did throw an interception that he shouldn't have thrown, but again, that was probably out of frustration as he saw that as one of his better deep possibilities that he had up until that part of the game. He is not a loser. But I'm sure glad his team lost.
Brees has thrown that pick in multiple games this season. It is a throw he used to be able to make, and can't now because of age.

Outside of that throw and the stupid fumble that he absolutely should have tucked and not lost, he played as well as the team around him allowed him too. The Saints are a system and QB driven team, in that they have a very good system that requires a very good QB to run. The Vikings coaching staff absolutely out schemed the system, and Brees didn't have the talent around him to beat to overcome it. Brilliant game plan by Zimmer. Absolutely brilliant.
I will admit ... I have to eat some crow this morning.

After the Green Bay game, I had written Mike Zimmer off. As much as I like him, I felt like he got his lunch handed to him by Matt Freaking LaFleur.

But this game. Man, Zimmer schooled his old pal Payton. Just schooled him. Offensively I thought we tanked in the 4th quarter and played not to lose, but defensively, Zimmer had a great plan. He knew that the only way Brees can escape pressure is to step up, and he made sure there was plenty of pressure up the middle. Brees got antsy, and Payton had no answer.

I guess it goes to show ... if you have no answer schematically, an immobile quarterback is toast. It's what happened to us against Green Bay in Week 16. If we play them again, hopefully we'll have a healthy Dalvin Cook. He's a difference maker. Remember on that last drive yesterday, he had an 11-yard gain right before the Cousins dime to Thielen. And that pass came off play-action. A good running game is essential in the playoffs. Zimmer somehow managed to get the Vikings to take away the run, play coverage, and get pressure up the middle. Just brilliant, as you said.

Man, as much as it sucks to admit I was wrong, it's even better to talk about how great that game plan was yesterday. Keep it up, Zimm!
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:33 am

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:15 am
I'll give Kirk credit. He made some good throws, and obviously the throw to Theilen was huge as was the TD to Rudolph. But to say that he had a great game would be exaggerating. You could tell he was nervous throughout most of the game. There were times that the nerves resulted in some bad decisions, and other times bad throws. Doesn't matter. He came through when we needed him to. That along with a good team effort and we are moving on to SF.
Isn't that what we used to say about Brady, though?

I'm not talking about 2007 Brady, who put up video-game numbers. For most of his career, Tom Brady has been a guy with good but not great stats, a guy who plays well but not phenomenal ... until it matters most. Then he becomes Superman.

That's what Kirk did yesterday. He was utterly brilliant when it mattered most. Isn't that what we all wanted? Isn't that what nearly every so-called expert in the NFL said he couldn't do? Make no mistake about it ... when overtime came, Kirk Cousins LED this team to victory, both with his play and his personality. It's what we've all been begging to see out of him.

It may be premature or silly to project things based off this one instance, but for many quarterbacks, an event like that opens a door that they've not been able to get through. Most quarterbacks find that door early in their careers. Maybe it just took Cousins 8 years and a good team around him. We've all known he has the talent. It's the confidence he's lacked. Again, I don't want to project, but I will hope. Maybe this unleashes a new Kirk.

Too optimistic? Sorry. Been waiting a long time for a drive like that. I'll try to stay real. :D
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by StpViking » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:16 pm

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WHITE 8TEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeee! WAZZZZ UP!
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by CharVike » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:05 am

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:15 am
CharVike wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:41 am

We all see different things. By the media reports I saw the greatest winning QB Brees look tense and scared. He crumpled but he's the best at home against a defense that was playing a bunch of backups in the secondary. Looked like he was gonna cry. That's a loser if I ever saw one. His backup did much better and got them back in the game. Our team lost two CBs this week and that loser couldn't do it. There talent level was much greater than ours and he couldn't do it. That's a guy who was tense if I ever saw one.
I'll give Kirk credit. He made some good throws, and obviously the throw to Theilen was huge as was the TD to Rudolph. But to say that he had a great game would be exaggerating. You could tell he was nervous throughout most of the game. There were times that the nerves resulted in some bad decisions, and other times bad throws. Doesn't matter. He came through when we needed him to. That along with a good team effort and we are moving on to SF.

I did NOT see a "tense and scared" Brees. I saw a QB that was constantly under pressure and was becoming frustrated as the game went on. He was having to get rid of the ball before he wanted to or he was getting sacked. He did throw an interception that he shouldn't have thrown, but again, that was probably out of frustration as he saw that as one of his better deep possibilities that he had up until that part of the game. He is not a loser. But I'm sure glad his team lost.
Kirk is what he is. He's not a top level QB. Never was never will be. Here's my point. Bring big time pressure and all QBs crumble. Brees who the media paints out as one of the greatest winners isn't close to that. He's a media darling. He can play it. We played him twice in the last three years in the play offs and what happened? He lost with a better team. Kirk is labeled as an all time loser
by the media. Did he win this game by himself as some expect him to do no. No QB does. Give Brady pressure and he's done. Cook is the bell cow for this offense we have. If he tears the 49ers up we will be in the game until the end. If not we will get our #### kicked regardless of anything else. Cook makes this O go. If he gets tired or limited by some other stuff we are in big trouble.
Kirk like all QBs can't do it alone. The all need weapons and time in the pocket to make the throw. Brees did get tense. His backup who wasn't tense was much better. That says nothing? His backup had no pressure and no tension. Announce that stiff as the starter and it will change. He will get tense.
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by Dames » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:42 am

CharVike wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:05 am
His backup who wasn't tense was much better. That says nothing? His backup had no pressure and no tension. Announce that stiff as the starter and it will change. He will get tense.
I've heard a few talking heads spouting about making Hill the starter next year. I really hope they do. I honestly don't think that's in their plans at all though. If it's not Brees, there's a much better chance it's Bridgewater than Hill. Hill is an athletic freak that works because he's a massive change-of-pace. He's very good in his role, but he's not a full-time QB. Even his "great" throw on Sunday was underthrown to a wide open receiver, and Rhodes damn near made the play on the ball despite getting toasted on the route. It worked because he rarely threw this year (I think 6 times all year), and the defense screwed up on the coverage because it was a surprise to see him throw deep.

I agree with you, put him in a starting role and it will get ugly fast. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have him on the Vikings, but not as a QB, that's for sure.
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by CharVike » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:31 am

Dames wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:42 am
CharVike wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:05 am
His backup who wasn't tense was much better. That says nothing? His backup had no pressure and no tension. Announce that stiff as the starter and it will change. He will get tense.
I've heard a few talking heads spouting about making Hill the starter next year. I really hope they do. I honestly don't think that's in their plans at all though. If it's not Brees, there's a much better chance it's Bridgewater than Hill. Hill is an athletic freak that works because he's a massive change-of-pace. He's very good in his role, but he's not a full-time QB. Even his "great" throw on Sunday was underthrown to a wide open receiver, and Rhodes damn near made the play on the ball despite getting toasted on the route. It worked because he rarely threw this year (I think 6 times all year), and the defense screwed up on the coverage because it was a surprise to see him throw deep.

I agree with you, put him in a starting role and it will get ugly fast. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have him on the Vikings, but not as a QB, that's for sure.
Hill is a gimmick. Were I disagree is Bridgewater. I never cared for him. I want a QB that can make all the throws. He can't do that. If he becomes a FA I don't see teams fighting over him. It won't be a Cousins deal again. Frail and no arm. He's a career backup IMO. Nothing more. I give Brees credit because he has won. The media can't get enough. It's a great story. I also give Brees the credit for milking it for all the money he can. Why not? Set the family up for generations. But he's like every QB. Bring the pressure big time and it's over. Same with this media guy Grap for the 49ers. Bring the pressure. Don't let him set up. Hit him. He will look like crap. They all do. If the 49ers bring the heat to Cousins he will fold also. That's why I feel the key is Cook. More so than any other player we have on O. The guy opens everything up and slows the pass rush.
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by VikeFanInEagleLand » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:59 am

A lot of media heads, when asked if they felt that Cousins has proved he can win the big game, are saying that he had NO pressure on his shoulders in the Saints game because no one was giving them a chance to win. Even HE didn't expect to win. C'mon! That's just nuts! For one thing,...he still knew what was being said about him. He still had to prove he can win a big game, irregardless of whether they were underdogs or not. For another thing...by the time it went to overtime, don't they think there was pressure on him then? And this is when he made some of his best throws. Ridiculous!
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by CharVike » Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:05 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:25 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:49 am


Brees has thrown that pick in multiple games this season. It is a throw he used to be able to make, and can't now because of age.

Outside of that throw and the stupid fumble that he absolutely should have tucked and not lost, he played as well as the team around him allowed him too. The Saints are a system and QB driven team, in that they have a very good system that requires a very good QB to run. The Vikings coaching staff absolutely out schemed the system, and Brees didn't have the talent around him to beat to overcome it. Brilliant game plan by Zimmer. Absolutely brilliant.
I will admit ... I have to eat some crow this morning.

After the Green Bay game, I had written Mike Zimmer off. As much as I like him, I felt like he got his lunch handed to him by Matt Freaking LaFleur.

But this game. Man, Zimmer schooled his old pal Payton. Just schooled him. Offensively I thought we tanked in the 4th quarter and played not to lose, but defensively, Zimmer had a great plan. He knew that the only way Brees can escape pressure is to step up, and he made sure there was plenty of pressure up the middle. Brees got antsy, and Payton had no answer.

I guess it goes to show ... if you have no answer schematically, an immobile quarterback is toast. It's what happened to us against Green Bay in Week 16. If we play them again, hopefully we'll have a healthy Dalvin Cook. He's a difference maker. Remember on that last drive yesterday, he had an 11-yard gain right before the Cousins dime to Thielen. And that pass came off play-action. A good running game is essential in the playoffs. Zimmer somehow managed to get the Vikings to take away the run, play coverage, and get pressure up the middle. Just brilliant, as you said.

Man, as much as it sucks to admit I was wrong, it's even better to talk about how great that game plan was yesterday. Keep it up, Zimm!
Sorry for late reply. Zim proved he can scheme. Our problem against the Pack is talent level. You can have the best scheme but if the talent can't match up it won't matter. The Saints have issues at G. Zim and his staff saw this and exploited it. There was no answer except throw that gimmick backup QB in there. The Pack knows Reif can't block 55. The talent gap is too large. 55 will destroy him again. It's a mismatch. A mobile QB won't avoid that. Maybe Hill for the Saints can but I wouldn't call him a QB. He's a jack of all trades. Knowledge of many positions master of none of them. A great gimmick. Brees couldn't deal with the pressure. He tensed up as they say and couldn't even tuck the ball away to avoid a fumble. That's as tense as it gets.
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by Dames » Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:47 pm

Interesting analysis about Cousins in Prime Time. In essence, the narrative is crap, but as expected by myself and others, he does tend to play more conservatively overall. The article doesn't solve anything, but it's just interesting to see.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-vikings-ki ... -primetime
Our analysis suggests that Kirk Cousins is a step above the average quarterback that teams tend to face on Sunday afternoon but a step below the average quarterback that teams tend to face in prime time. Along with some bad luck in small samples, this explains the large discrepancy of the win-loss records.

The narrative that Cousins can’t deliver when the lights are set on him is not true, though we have found that his decision-making might be suboptimal.
On Sunday afternoons, Cousins has been used to watching his defense overwhelm the opposing quarterback, but opposing offenses have been largely successful against the Vikings in prime time. This is not surprising, and it's also not necessarily the defense’s fault. A defense is more of a function of the opposing offenses that they face, and, naturally, teams face better offenses and better teams in prime time.
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