If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by Dames » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:00 pm

TSonn wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:51 pm
I agree that Kirk tends to come out tight in "bigger" games. This game, although it's in the playoffs, is like the lowest expectation playoff game Kirk might ever have. There is zero expectation we win this game. So if there were a playoff game for him to get some confidence and let it fly - this is the one. Will Zimmer let him? That's another question.
It's the playoffs, so there will be pressure regardless, but hopefully they all come out and play like they have nothing to lose.
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by Bowhunting Viking » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:18 pm

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:52 pm
Purplepain2018 wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:34 pm
Kirk Cousins has now been with the Vikings for two seasons and his record as a starting QB is 18-12-1. In his career, Cousins has 13 GWD (game winning drives). Cousins has become to be known as "Good Kirk" and "Bad Kirk." Unfortunately, for us Vikings fans we have seen way too much of "Bad Kirk" and not enough of "Good Kirk."

Before the Philadelphia Eagles game this year one of their linebackers referred to Cousins as "the weakest link on the offense." Cousins seemingly played with a chip on his shoulder and he looked mad as he played as the Vikings cruised to a win over the Eagles and the Vikings won 5 of their next 6 games.

Now we are in the playoffs and one loss and you are done. If the Vikings have one last shot and the ball, do you trust Kirk Cousins to get it done and get the W for the Vikings?
I think he CAN, but let me just say that there have been many QB's in my lifetime that I didn't want given another chance to get the ball in their hands...not even with 1:00 left on the clock. Cousin's isn't one of them, and I don't care if he had the best OL in the world.
That was a spot on narrative if I've ever seen one.
I wish I knew the exact amount of times I've thought to myself " Oh man we left too much time on the clock for___ ______ (insert the elite QB name).
Do I believe that Cousins has the talent to feel this way about, absolutely I do.
Do I honestly always TRUST in those situations that he has the Psyche and the confidence to feel this way about. Unfortunately I can't be honest and say that I do.
So many times when guys like Favre, Elway, Marino, Kelly, Manning etc from the past, and current guys like Brady, Brees and of course Erin, get the ball with a little time left and need to either score or get into FG range, you just see that confidence and determination that they are gonna get it done. And when they exude that confidence its contagious to their teammates, and the fan base. They always believe that they can win.
Sometimes I see that in Kirk. But unfortunately, I said SOMETIMES. Other times he seems skittish, unsure and scared out there.
And I know I'm not sitting in my man cave watching with total confidence thinking Man this is gonna be great to see him pull this off.
Instead, I sit here with my heart pounding thinking Man, I will be shocked if we get this done.
Hopefully Kirk will do some shocking , starting this Sunday and moving forward.
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by VikingLord » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:20 pm

I just wanted to chime in here because the question misses the fact that this is a team game.

Cousins has to do his part, be it over the time he's on the field or on a game-winning drive, but so does every other player. And not just every other player, but the coaches too. And even if every player does his part and the coaches do too, it still might not be enough because there are other guys on the other team who might just be better, even if just that day.

So can Cousins do it? Absolutely he can. He's a talented player who can make all sorts of amazing plays provided he doesn't panic and is patient AND the players and coaches around him do their part.

I think it was the great Joe Kapp who once refused an award saying it was 60 for 60 or something to that effect. He was right then and what he said applies to now. If the Vikings are going to win in the playoffs or win anything substantial, it's going to be because they did it as a team and by sticking together, not because Kirk Cousins carried them. Not because Dalvin Cook carried them. Not because Adam Thielen or Stefon Diggs carried them. Because they all carried each other and held together and executed.

That's it. It really is that simple.

The pressure is off on the Vikings. It's off on Cousins. Nobody expects them to win in the playoffs so they can just go out and play because worst case, they do what everyone expects them to do anyway and lose. Everyone expects Cousins to fall apart under pressure anyway. He can just go out and wing it around and take chances. Play smart, but just play and let the chips fall where they may.
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by fiestavike » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:48 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:20 pm
I just wanted to chime in here because the question misses the fact that this is a team game.

Cousins has to do his part, be it over the time he's on the field or on a game-winning drive, but so does every other player. And not just every other player, but the coaches too. And even if every player does his part and the coaches do too, it still might not be enough because there are other guys on the other team who might just be better, even if just that day.

So can Cousins do it? Absolutely he can. He's a talented player who can make all sorts of amazing plays provided he doesn't panic and is patient AND the players and coaches around him do their part.

I think it was the great Joe Kapp who once refused an award saying it was 60 for 60 or something to that effect. He was right then and what he said applies to now. If the Vikings are going to win in the playoffs or win anything substantial, it's going to be because they did it as a team and by sticking together, not because Kirk Cousins carried them. Not because Dalvin Cook carried them. Not because Adam Thielen or Stefon Diggs carried them. Because they all carried each other and held together and executed.

That's it. It really is that simple.

The pressure is off on the Vikings. It's off on Cousins. Nobody expects them to win in the playoffs so they can just go out and play because worst case, they do what everyone expects them to do anyway and lose. Everyone expects Cousins to fall apart under pressure anyway. He can just go out and wing it around and take chances. Play smart, but just play and let the chips fall where they may.
I think the element that is so often ignored with Cousins supporters is his demeanor and temperament. Your example of Joe Kapp is an excellent counter example. Obviously it was a different game, but Joe Kapp basically made it in the NFL with intangibles. Leadership, toughness, courage, moxie, etc. Those aren't traits as essential as they once were to have success as an NFL QB. Guys who lack those traits can perform at a pretty high level much of the time. Kirk Cousins might just be such a guy. It may be obsolete, but I'm the kind of football fan who has more trust in temperament in those moments than I do in physical gifts.
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by VikingLord » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:47 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:48 pm
I think the element that is so often ignored with Cousins supporters is his demeanor and temperament. Your example of Joe Kapp is an excellent counter example. Obviously it was a different game, but Joe Kapp basically made it in the NFL with intangibles. Leadership, toughness, courage, moxie, etc. Those aren't traits as essential as they once were to have success as an NFL QB. Guys who lack those traits can perform at a pretty high level much of the time. Kirk Cousins might just be such a guy. It may be obsolete, but I'm the kind of football fan who has more trust in temperament in those moments than I do in physical gifts.
This is very valid, but maybe with the pressure off Cousins can just go out and play instead of worrying about making a mistake. I mean, at this point nobody expects the Vikings to win, and less than that expect Cousins could actually direct a late drive to win a big game. So there is no pressure. If he messes up, well, everybody expected that anyway so who cares? Cousins can just go out there and take chances. Go deep when he could more easily go short. Pause that extra half second to let a route develop. Fire it in there between two closing defenders.

I'm looking forward to an exciting game from Cousins and the Vikings precisely because I think this team has a lot of big plays in it on both sides of the ball if they just let loose. Zimmer might not like it. Heck, I can imagine Childress spent most of 2009 privately fuming as he watched Favre carve up opposing defenses with ad lib play after ad lib play, but it worked for the most part. Cousins decides to let loose and anything can happen. If the offensive line buys him time and the run game gives the Saints something to worry about I could see Cousins putting up some big numbers.

Not saying that will happen but the potential is there and if it does happen it would not surprise me. It would not surprise me at all if as the final seconds tick off the clock the camera shows Payton standing with his mouth wide open and shaking his head, wondering what just happened to his Drew Brees-led 13-win team.
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:00 pm

I don't think I understand this pressure being off Cousins theory. This is a playoff game, the pressure is on regardless of who is a favorite.
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by CharVike » Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:59 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:00 pm
I don't think I understand this pressure being off Cousins theory. This is a playoff game, the pressure is on regardless of who is a favorite.
Bingo. The pressure isn't off. If he plays like dog crap does anyone think the media won't pounce. If he gets beat regardless of how it happens it's his lose. That's plenty of pressure. If anything the pressure is higher than any other point since he's been a Viking.
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by CharVike » Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:31 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:48 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:20 pm
I just wanted to chime in here because the question misses the fact that this is a team game.

Cousins has to do his part, be it over the time he's on the field or on a game-winning drive, but so does every other player. And not just every other player, but the coaches too. And even if every player does his part and the coaches do too, it still might not be enough because there are other guys on the other team who might just be better, even if just that day.

So can Cousins do it? Absolutely he can. He's a talented player who can make all sorts of amazing plays provided he doesn't panic and is patient AND the players and coaches around him do their part.

I think it was the great Joe Kapp who once refused an award saying it was 60 for 60 or something to that effect. He was right then and what he said applies to now. If the Vikings are going to win in the playoffs or win anything substantial, it's going to be because they did it as a team and by sticking together, not because Kirk Cousins carried them. Not because Dalvin Cook carried them. Not because Adam Thielen or Stefon Diggs carried them. Because they all carried each other and held together and executed.

That's it. It really is that simple.

The pressure is off on the Vikings. It's off on Cousins. Nobody expects them to win in the playoffs so they can just go out and play because worst case, they do what everyone expects them to do anyway and lose. Everyone expects Cousins to fall apart under pressure anyway. He can just go out and wing it around and take chances. Play smart, but just play and let the chips fall where they may.
I think the element that is so often ignored with Cousins supporters is his demeanor and temperament. Your example of Joe Kapp is an excellent counter example. Obviously it was a different game, but Joe Kapp basically made it in the NFL with intangibles. Leadership, toughness, courage, moxie, etc. Those aren't traits as essential as they once were to have success as an NFL QB. Guys who lack those traits can perform at a pretty high level much of the time. Kirk Cousins might just be such a guy. It may be obsolete, but I'm the kind of football fan who has more trust in temperament in those moments than I do in physical gifts.
Joe Kapp lost a super bowl game and he was a heavy favorite. I know he's a legend and I'm not knocking him but getting beat in the biggest game as a heavy favorite doesn't that say anything? Does that make him a loser? If Cousins get's beat as a road dog he will be called a loser. Is that fair? I know nothing is fair but there is always a twisting that gets done with this stuff. This is one example. Ones a winner the other will be a loser if he loses. That's why this loser winner BS really doesn't mean too much. Tark must be considered the all time loser. I don't even know what demeanor and temperament have to do with anything.
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:32 pm

CharVike wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:31 pm
fiestavike wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:48 pm


I think the element that is so often ignored with Cousins supporters is his demeanor and temperament. Your example of Joe Kapp is an excellent counter example. Obviously it was a different game, but Joe Kapp basically made it in the NFL with intangibles. Leadership, toughness, courage, moxie, etc. Those aren't traits as essential as they once were to have success as an NFL QB. Guys who lack those traits can perform at a pretty high level much of the time. Kirk Cousins might just be such a guy. It may be obsolete, but I'm the kind of football fan who has more trust in temperament in those moments than I do in physical gifts.
Joe Kapp lost a super bowl game and he was a heavy favorite. I know he's a legend and I'm not knocking him but getting beat in the biggest game as a heavy favorite doesn't that say anything? Does that make him a loser? If Cousins get's beat as a road dog he will be called a loser. Is that fair? I know nothing is fair but there is always a twisting that gets done with this stuff. This is one example. Ones a winner the other will be a loser if he loses. That's why this loser winner BS really doesn't mean too much. Tark must be considered the all time loser. I don't even know what demeanor and temperament have to do with anything.
He hasn't even lost yet and you are making excuses for him...
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by CharVike » Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:08 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:32 pm
CharVike wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:31 pm

Joe Kapp lost a super bowl game and he was a heavy favorite. I know he's a legend and I'm not knocking him but getting beat in the biggest game as a heavy favorite doesn't that say anything? Does that make him a loser? If Cousins get's beat as a road dog he will be called a loser. Is that fair? I know nothing is fair but there is always a twisting that gets done with this stuff. This is one example. Ones a winner the other will be a loser if he loses. That's why this loser winner BS really doesn't mean too much. Tark must be considered the all time loser. I don't even know what demeanor and temperament have to do with anything.
He hasn't even lost yet and you are making excuses for him...
What excuse are you thinking of. If Cousins get's beat as a road dog he will be called a loser. How is that close to an excuse? He will get the win lose regardless of what else happens or what any other player does. This O is designed around the run/screen. Everything else comes off that. That means Cook needs a big game against this good team. If he blows does that mean nothing to you? Or is that an excuse for Cousins. IMO Cook needs to contribute big time. That's what I mean by this winner loser BS. When Reif gives this stud pass rusher a free run which will happen and there's a strip sack it will be on Cousins. IMO how about blocking the guy. But that's an excuse I guess. I've heard others say the OL don't matter. That's BS also. But you'll call it an excuse I made up. IMO everyting starts at the LOS. Lose that battle and good luck to you.
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by fiestavike » Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:17 am

CharVike wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:31 pm
fiestavike wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:48 pm


I think the element that is so often ignored with Cousins supporters is his demeanor and temperament. Your example of Joe Kapp is an excellent counter example. Obviously it was a different game, but Joe Kapp basically made it in the NFL with intangibles. Leadership, toughness, courage, moxie, etc. Those aren't traits as essential as they once were to have success as an NFL QB. Guys who lack those traits can perform at a pretty high level much of the time. Kirk Cousins might just be such a guy. It may be obsolete, but I'm the kind of football fan who has more trust in temperament in those moments than I do in physical gifts.
Joe Kapp lost a super bowl game and he was a heavy favorite. I know he's a legend and I'm not knocking him but getting beat in the biggest game as a heavy favorite doesn't that say anything? Does that make him a loser? If Cousins get's beat as a road dog he will be called a loser. Is that fair? I know nothing is fair but there is always a twisting that gets done with this stuff. This is one example. Ones a winner the other will be a loser if he loses. That's why this loser winner BS really doesn't mean too much. Tark must be considered the all time loser. I don't even know what demeanor and temperament have to do with anything.
I'm not focusing on wins and losses, or 'kirk can't win the big game' etc. You are conflating what other people have said with what I am saying. I am specifically saying Kirk's shortcoming, in my view, is temperamental.
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by CharVike » Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:59 am

fiestavike wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:17 am
CharVike wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:31 pm

Joe Kapp lost a super bowl game and he was a heavy favorite. I know he's a legend and I'm not knocking him but getting beat in the biggest game as a heavy favorite doesn't that say anything? Does that make him a loser? If Cousins get's beat as a road dog he will be called a loser. Is that fair? I know nothing is fair but there is always a twisting that gets done with this stuff. This is one example. Ones a winner the other will be a loser if he loses. That's why this loser winner BS really doesn't mean too much. Tark must be considered the all time loser. I don't even know what demeanor and temperament have to do with anything.
I'm not focusing on wins and losses, or 'kirk can't win the big game' etc. You are conflating what other people have said with what I am saying. I am specifically saying Kirk's shortcoming, in my view, is temperamental.
I don't even know how temperamental fits with a pro sports. As I said I don't even know what it means so I looked it up. Here it is.

A temperamental person is someone whose mood often changes very suddenly. Is that your view or is it different.

Based on this simple meaning isn't that every player? I've seen Diggs up and down. When he missed that trick player he was smiling because he knew he blew it. His bad play cost us a possible score in a must win game. That's a temperamental player. One minute up next down. I can go through example after example but it would take too much time. So basically Kirk needs to show no emotion to be successful I guess. Troy Aikman showed emotion. I've seen both sides. He had success once the OL was built and he had a back and a...... I guess I don't understand what temperamental has to do with Kirk's play. IMO this OL we have sucks. Kirk is scared right now because this Jordan guy is a beast and has great movement and will run by or through this joke LT we have. I'd be scared to. Your right he is temperamental.
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:25 am

CharVike wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:59 am
fiestavike wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:17 am


I'm not focusing on wins and losses, or 'kirk can't win the big game' etc. You are conflating what other people have said with what I am saying. I am specifically saying Kirk's shortcoming, in my view, is temperamental.
I don't even know how temperamental fits with a pro sports. As I said I don't even know what it means so I looked it up. Here it is.

A temperamental person is someone whose mood often changes very suddenly. Is that your view or is it different.

Based on this simple meaning isn't that every player? I've seen Diggs up and down. When he missed that trick player he was smiling because he knew he blew it. His bad play cost us a possible score in a must win game. That's a temperamental player. One minute up next down. I can go through example after example but it would take too much time. So basically Kirk needs to show no emotion to be successful I guess. Troy Aikman showed emotion. I've seen both sides. He had success once the OL was built and he had a back and a...... I guess I don't understand what temperamental has to do with Kirk's play. IMO this OL we have sucks. Kirk is scared right now because this Jordan guy is a beast and has great movement and will run by or through this joke LT we have. I'd be scared to. Your right he is temperamental.
Not to speak for fiestavike, but I think what he means is that Kirk Cousins needs to be LESS temperamental in stressful situations like end-of-game comeback drives. Many say he struggles to control the emotions of the moment. In other words, he gets nervous. Tight.

I don't know whether that's true, but the evidence is there. A perfect example is the fourth-down play late in the game at Seattle. He chose the wrong receiver, which is a mental thing, not physical. I'm pretty sure that if he'd seen the open man, he could have physically gotten him the football. Instead, he appeared to panic a bit and tried to force a low-percentage throw to Irv Smith. He missed the open man (don't remember who it was, but it was called out on this board multiple times).

Some QBs seem to have icewater in their veins and almost play better when the pressure is at its highest. Russell Wilson comes to mind. Obviously Brady is another.
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by fiestavike » Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:38 am

CharVike wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:59 am
fiestavike wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:17 am


I'm not focusing on wins and losses, or 'kirk can't win the big game' etc. You are conflating what other people have said with what I am saying. I am specifically saying Kirk's shortcoming, in my view, is temperamental.
I don't even know how temperamental fits with a pro sports. As I said I don't even know what it means so I looked it up. Here it is.

A temperamental person is someone whose mood often changes very suddenly. Is that your view or is it different.

Based on this simple meaning isn't that every player? I've seen Diggs up and down. When he missed that trick player he was smiling because he knew he blew it. His bad play cost us a possible score in a must win game. That's a temperamental player. One minute up next down. I can go through example after example but it would take too much time. So basically Kirk needs to show no emotion to be successful I guess. Troy Aikman showed emotion. I've seen both sides. He had success once the OL was built and he had a back and a...... I guess I don't understand what temperamental has to do with Kirk's play. IMO this OL we have sucks. Kirk is scared right now because this Jordan guy is a beast and has great movement and will run by or through this joke LT we have. I'd be scared to. Your right he is temperamental.
I don't mean temperamental, which implies someone who's temperament is volatile, I mean temperament or disposition. I'm talking about a permanent characteristic in Kirk Cousins, in how he psychologically reacts to pressure. This is not unusual. Very few people have the temperament to be an elite NFL QB. I often say, Kirk Cousins is almost elite...but he isn't elite, and his fatal flaw is a pretty big one.

temperament - a person's or animal's nature, especially as it permanently affects their behavior.

disposition - a person's inherent qualities of mind and character.

I'm not trying to compare the two, and his body of work illustrates that he is a far less talented QB, but the reason Case Keenum is in the NFL is temperament and disposition. Now he lacks a lot of other things that Cousins has, to be sure, but in this age of fantasy football, these are elements that are chronically overlooked by fans and analysts, and they tend to be especially important qualities in QBs and coaches.
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Re: If any of these playoff games comes down to Kirk Cousins on a game winning drive can he do it?

Post by fiestavike » Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:43 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:25 am
CharVike wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:59 am

I don't even know how temperamental fits with a pro sports. As I said I don't even know what it means so I looked it up. Here it is.

A temperamental person is someone whose mood often changes very suddenly. Is that your view or is it different.

Based on this simple meaning isn't that every player? I've seen Diggs up and down. When he missed that trick player he was smiling because he knew he blew it. His bad play cost us a possible score in a must win game. That's a temperamental player. One minute up next down. I can go through example after example but it would take too much time. So basically Kirk needs to show no emotion to be successful I guess. Troy Aikman showed emotion. I've seen both sides. He had success once the OL was built and he had a back and a...... I guess I don't understand what temperamental has to do with Kirk's play. IMO this OL we have sucks. Kirk is scared right now because this Jordan guy is a beast and has great movement and will run by or through this joke LT we have. I'd be scared to. Your right he is temperamental.
Not to speak for fiestavike, but I think what he means is that Kirk Cousins needs to be LESS temperamental in stressful situations like end-of-game comeback drives. Many say he struggles to control the emotions of the moment. In other words, he gets nervous. Tight.

I don't know whether that's true, but the evidence is there. A perfect example is the fourth-down play late in the game at Seattle. He chose the wrong receiver, which is a mental thing, not physical. I'm pretty sure that if he'd seen the open man, he could have physically gotten him the football. Instead, he appeared to panic a bit and tried to force a low-percentage throw to Irv Smith. He missed the open man (don't remember who it was, but it was called out on this board multiple times).

Some QBs seem to have icewater in their veins and almost play better when the pressure is at its highest. Russell Wilson comes to mind. Obviously Brady is another.
Yes, thank you. Well said. I will never forget this play, for instance.
https://twitter.com/thecheckdown/status ... 6191254%2F

Although I do want to specify, I am not just talking about pressure in a football sense, but pressure in a psychological sense. There are games where Kirk comes out and is obviously tight, aiming his passes, trying not to err. In those cases his response to physical pressure is often at its worst.
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