Jerry Jones interested in Mike Zimmer

[Bowhunting Viking]

ESPN website just reporting that Cowgirls will be not be renewing Garrett's contract and the HC search will begin. The only caveat I see is that Ed Werder is breaking the story. So I guess I will believe it when a more credible source than Werder reports it.

[Mothman]

He won multiple games against playoff teams in 2015, 2016 and 2017. Was 5-1 against the division in 2015 including a win in the final game needed to win the division against a division rival. 5-1 in 2017 as well. Had a winning record against playoff teams at 4-3 in 2017, .500 record at 2-3 in 2016 and was 2-5 in 2015 for a total of 8-11. Not great, but I doubt any coach but Belly's record against playoff teams is great. 2-10 I believe since then, with both wins coming against a 9-7 Eagles team. Recency bias is feeding this bad against winning teams stuff.

It's not a recency bias. It's just the reality of the past two seasons.

BTW, 2-3 obviously isn't a .500 record and 8-11 is worse than "not great". It's well below .500 and I'm guessing if you add up his overall record against playoff teams over the past 6 seasons, it would look worse.

It really looks to me like he has a ceiling and I'm afraid we'll probably see more evidence of it this postseason (although it would be nice to be wrong about that).

[fiestavike]

There have been some solid performances but his reputation rests primarily on his ability to coach defense and his defenses have often disappointed in the postseason. They certainly haven't dominated like units that could carry a team all the way and that's been what the Vikes and fans have been banking on with this guy from the start, right?

I wouldn't say I agree with that. I think Zimmer has always been about complimentary football. His defenses play a reactive style, not an aggressive style that forces the issue. That may or may not be a good scheme, but given that, I've never expected the defense to be a shut down unit. Its (intended to be) more of a mistake free unit that channels the ball to areas where it can be best make a play.

[Mothman]

There have been some solid performances but his reputation rests primarily on his ability to coach defense and his defenses have often disappointed in the postseason. They certainly haven't dominated like units that could carry a team all the way and that's been what the Vikes and fans have been banking on with this guy from the start, right?

I wouldn't say I agree with that. I think Zimmer has always been about complimentary football.

I agree that's his strategy as a head coach but his reputation rests primarily on his defensive credentials.

If it's the latter part you disagree with... fair enough.

His defenses play a reactive style, not an aggressive style that forces the issue. That may or may not be a good scheme, but given that, I've never expected the defense to be a shut down unit. Its (intended to be) more of a mistake free unit that channels the ball to areas where it can be best make a play.

Agreed... but that's one of the reasons I think he has a ceiling as a head coach (at least with Spielman as GM). His approach lends itself to 8-10 win seasons but his strategy, at least as it's played out thus far, looks inadequate to make the necessary 3-4 game run through the postseason to a Super Bowl win.

[J. Kapp 11]

ESPN website just reporting that Cowgirls will be not be renewing Garrett's contract and the HC search will begin. The only caveat I see is that Ed Werder is breaking the story. So I guess I will believe it when a more credible source than Werder reports it.

If it means anything, FOX, CBS, and others are now reporting the same. They do say “according to reports,” which used to mean something as far as verifying.

[fiestavike]

Agreed... but that's one of the reasons I think he has a ceiling as a head coach (at least with Spielman as GM). His approach lends itself to 8-10 win seasons but his strategy, at least as it's played out thus far, looks inadequate to make the necessary 3-4 game run through the postseason to a Super Bowl win.

So, we just don't agree here. I think the leadership is right, the recipe is sufficient, and getting the formula right is the difference between 9-10 wins and a WC exit vs. that 3-4 game run through the post season to a SB win. Its not easy to get the formula right, but its much harder when the leadership and recipe become shifting sands. I see Zimmer as a less abrasive Bill Parcels, and maybe he needs to have more say and more control on picking OCs and QBs, maybe not forcing his way into that decision (assuming he isn't) is his great flaw, but I remain convinced that Kubiak/Zimmer or Shurmer/Zimmer provided the leadership and recipe needed, and its a matter of the formula at this point. Its not possible for me to know to what degree Zimmer and Spielman work hand in hand on these decisions, but I'm inclined to put more of the blame on Spielman at this point. We've had a series of very poorly matched HC/OC marriages, and a series of very poorly matched OC/QB marriages.

[Mothman]

So, we just don't agree here. I think the leadership is right, the recipe is sufficient, and getting the formula right is the difference between 9-10 wins and a WC exit vs. that 3-4 game run through the post season to a SB win. Its not easy to get the formula right, but its much harder when the leadership and recipe become shifting sands. I see Zimmer as a less abrasive Bill Parcels, and maybe he needs to have more say and more control on picking OCs and QBs, maybe not forcing his way into that decision (assuming he isn't) is his great flaw, but I remain convinced that Kubiak/Zimmer or Shurmer/Zimmer provided the leadership and recipe needed, and its a matter of the formula at this point. Its not possible for me to know to what degree Zimmer and Spielman work hand in hand on these decisions, but I'm inclined to put more of the blame on Spielman at this point. We've had a series of very poorly matched HC/OC marriages, and a series of very poorly matched OC/QB marriages.

Based on reporting over the years, it seems clear that Zimmer has been able to choose his coordinators. Spielman doesn't seem to interfere with those decisions. It's less clear with QBs but Zimmer certainly appears to have signed off on all of those choices.

Anyway, you're right, we simply disagree. Your position is reasonable and it may ultimately end up being correct. I certainly agree that ever-shifting sands make success more difficult. The Browns are perpetually in that cycle and it's obviously detrimental. That said, there has to be a period of time after which a team decides to makes changes if they aren't achieving their goals. Maybe that's 4 years, maybe it's 6, 8 or 10.

Our key area of disagreement might be in regard to leadership, recipe and formula. If I'm correctly interpreting your use of those terms, I think the three are inextricably tied together. My view is the recipe isn't going to yield the desired result without the right formula but the wrong leadership is probably not going to arrive at the right combination of recipe and formula.

Perhaps Zimmer is the right coach with the wrong GM. There's a case to be made for that but at this point it seems likely they're also inextricably linked together. I doubt we'll see a scenario where Spielman is replaced and Zimmer isn't so if the Vikings want to cook up a Super Bowl recipe, I think the sands have to shift sooner or later.

There, have I sufficiently tortured all of those metaphors?

PS:) Just to be clear, I'm assuming:

Leadership = Coaching/Management
Recipe = Scheme/ basic strategy
Formula = Personnel

[fiestavike]

Leadership = Coaching/Management
Recipe = Scheme/ basic strategy
Formula = Personnel

Ya, that's what I'm getting at. Its obviously not quite so neat and starkly divided, but that's the gist.

As I recall, Zimmer was not thrilled about DeFilippo and its not clear to me he was happy about Bradford or Cousins, but ultimately, whether he signed off on those moves or didn't, he's equally worthy of criticism on that ground. He needs to TAKE ownership of those decisions it isn't being offered to him, and if he is making those decisions, well, they have been dubious.

[Mothman]

Leadership = Coaching/Management
Recipe = Scheme/ basic strategy
Formula = Personnel

Ya, that's what I'm getting at. Its obviously not quite so neat and starkly divided, but that's the gist.

As I recall, Zimmer was not thrilled about DeFilippo and its not clear to me he was happy about Bradford or Cousins, but ultimately, whether he signed off on those moves or didn't, he's equally worthy of criticism on that ground. He needs to TAKE ownership of those decisions it isn't being offered to him, and if he is making those decisions, well, they have been dubious.

Agreed!

[Dames]

Nice debate guys. I'm firmly on the fence regarding Zimmer. There are times were I think he could be the guy to take us to the top, but there are other times I'm left scratching my head. I've seen way too many times were the team just looked completely flat when playing an important game (the latest being GB, but also Chi last year and vs Philly in 2017). Those moments really give me pause. I really want to believe, because I know that the FO thinks very highly of him. Maybe we'll start getting some clarity starting Sunday.

[fiestavike]

Nice debate guys. I'm firmly on the fence regarding Zimmer. There are times were I think he could be the guy to take us to the top, but there are other times I'm left scratching my head. I've seen way too many times were the team just looked completely flat when playing an important game (the latest being GB, but also Chi last year and vs Philly in 2017). Those moments really give me pause. I really want to believe, because I know that the FO thinks very highly of him. Maybe we'll start getting some clarity starting Sunday.

I didn't think the team looked flat against GB. The offense just game planned/played terribly. Against Buffalo and against SF a couple years back, those teams came out FLAT.

[Dames]

Nice debate guys. I'm firmly on the fence regarding Zimmer. There are times were I think he could be the guy to take us to the top, but there are other times I'm left scratching my head. I've seen way too many times were the team just looked completely flat when playing an important game (the latest being GB, but also Chi last year and vs Philly in 2017). Those moments really give me pause. I really want to believe, because I know that the FO thinks very highly of him. Maybe we'll start getting some clarity starting Sunday.

I didn't think the team looked flat against GB. The offense just game planned/played terribly. Against Buffalo and against SF a couple years back, those teams came out FLAT.

In GB, I guess the better word would be unprepared, instead of flat. Not even sure if that's true or not, but it looked like it. On Offense at least.

[psjordan]

I see Zimmer as a less abrasive Bill Parcels

I think your views are reasonable, and maybe you picked Parcells "quickly and off the top", but I can't buy this one. Parcells rarely if ever had his teams as unprepared as Zimmer for quite a few "big" games.

I don't dislike Zimmer at all, but I started the "ceiling" comments in another thread a week or two ago, and IMO Zim absolutely has a ceiling that he has hit with this team.

Now, this whole conversation gets muddy quickly, as you've pointed out, due to all the moving parts having effects on all the other moving parts. But in general, I tend to put a lot of how a team performs and progresses at the feet of the coaching staff, provided they have some semblence of talent being brought in by the GM. Is Spielman a top five GM? I don't really feel that way but I would put him top 1/3? of the league or so. And that's exactly the point where I'd put Zim - maybe between #10-15 in "best head coaches in the NFL" mythical list? Don't know, as I've never done the exercise. Lots of variables there, too.

If we had already won a SB or two, I'd probably have more patience with the coaches.

But we haven't, and I don't.

[Texas Vike]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/284 ... ngs-rumors

Browns:

And don't rule out Vikings offensive coordinator Kevin Stefanski, who is in the same boat as McDaniels and Daboll but got an extremely long look from the Browns for this job a year ago. Sources tell me that there were people in the Browns' building strongly in favor of hiring Stefanski, but now-former GM John Dorsey had final say and picked now-former head coach Freddie Kitchens.

Cowboys:

I'm keeping an eye on Sunday's Vikings-Saints game. If the Vikings lose, there are people around the league who wouldn't be surprised to see Jones take a run at coach Mike Zimmer, a former Cowboys defensive coordinator for whom Jones feels a strong affinity. Zimmer has a year left on his Vikings contract, so it's possible that the Cowboys would have to trade a draft pick for him in this scenario, but don't rule it out.

[CanUDiggsIt?]

I believe we keep Zimmer, but Stefanski leaves for another job. Kubiak is then promoted to OC/Assistant HC. That's my prediction.