Diggs

[J. Kapp 11]

Chris Simms said this about our offense:

"You know me, I like to watch film, I watched the Minnesota offense and their pass schemes and it's about as underwhelming as it gets in the NFL. It's just as simple as can be. I mean, they're running plays that New England would say 'we practice those with our rookies'".

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... k-cousins/

We've got a veteran QB and two stud veteran WRs who are known for their route running. There's no reason for our passing game to be dumbed down and be one of the simplest in the NFL.

All due respect to Simms, but if you watch back the Bears game, the receivers were open on those "simple" routes., so... more complicated routes are just that... more complicated. It's not going to make them execute any better is it? In other words, I'm not buying that is the cause of the issues.

I confess I haven't watched the video yet. I will, and maybe I'll have a different opinion... but I didn't see anything in the Bears game to suggest that they weren't getting open because the routes are too simple.

I saw the video. Simms is yet another quarterback apologizing for yet another quarterback.

Watch the coaches' film. Cousins missed plenty of opportunities, which he fully admitted on his podcast after watching his own tape. As I've mentioned before, he had some plays with clean pockets and guys open down the field, yet he checked down, and didn't even set his feet to do that. It's a clear indication of a quarterback who's seeing the rush.

Another thing with Cousins ... he apparently doesn't like throwing to his tight ends. Kyle Rudolph, a solid tight end but not a game-breaker, had a monster year in 2017 because his quarterback targeted him A LOT, especially on third down and the red zone. Rudolph has become an afterthought since Cousins got here. That's what I don't get. The Vikings extended Diggs, Thielen and Rudolph, yet we don't utilize them. Diggs has less than half the targets he had at this point last year, and it's worse for Thielen. Granted, John DeFilippo never saw a down that didn't look like a passing down, but what was the point of extending all these guys if we're not going to actually throw to them?

Having a strong running game is great. But the balance has swung way too far the other way.

As for Diggs, I've gotten to the point where I feel like if he wants out that badly, then get tons of value for him and send him on his way. Especially if you're only going to target him 3 or 4 times a game. Maybe we can draft a quarterback who plays as well as he talks.

[Mothman]

I don't think it's the amount of pass vs run that's frustrating. Like you said, most of those numbers are a product of what happens during the game anyway. It's that our passing scheme is pedestrian.

Chris Simms said this about our offense:

"You know me, I like to watch film, I watched the Minnesota offense and their pass schemes and it's about as underwhelming as it gets in the NFL. It's just as simple as can be. I mean, they're running plays that New England would say 'we practice those with our rookies'".

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... k-cousins/

Thanks. I saw that too. I wonder if it's a sign we should be singing the "first time offensive coordinator" blues.

[VikingLord]

The distraction he's created isn't what the team needs right now. The Vikings need leadership and teamwork, not selfishness or off-the field distractions.

As for the run-pass ratios and the wins-losses, I don't think it's the ratio of run-pass plays that bothers Diggs, but probably more the nature of the losses. Thielen alluded to this when he said something to the effect of "you're not always going to be able to rush for 180 yards". With the guys it has, this team should be able to throw the ball.

And then also, in those losses there were deep opportunities that were missed, both to Diggs and to Thielen, and who knows how many other times Diggs/Thielen or other guys are coming open only to see a skittish Cousins taking off and bailing on the play? If you are a WR and you work your behind off all offseason and then run your behind off all game only to see the chances you are creating slip away consistently because of skittish QB play, I can see that getting under anyone's skin.

You can take the teamwork and leadership angle only so far as it relates to individual players IMHO. That road goes both ways. Yeah, guys like Diggs and Thielen do owe their teammates something. But that applies to every member of the team, including the GM and coaches. If guys like Thielen and Diggs are calling it out publicly, to me that means they're not being heard internally, and that goes directly back to the coaches.

[Alaskan]

I don't think it's the amount of pass vs run that's frustrating. Like you said, most of those numbers are a product of what happens during the game anyway. It's that our passing scheme is pedestrian.

Chris Simms said this about our offense:

"You know me, I like to watch film, I watched the Minnesota offense and their pass schemes and it's about as underwhelming as it gets in the NFL. It's just as simple as can be. I mean, they're running plays that New England would say 'we practice those with our rookies'".

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... k-cousins/

Thanks. I saw that too. I wonder if it's a sign we should be singing the "first time offensive coordinator" blues.

I think we should be singing those blues. The structure of the offense staff had plenty of question marks as it was being assembled. It was easy to look past those questions up front and look at the potential. I remember thinking to myself, “why would they structure it like this with a team ready to contend” After reading some articles and getting the spin the media likes to put on things I started to question it less and got on board with the excitement of this new arrangement as the way forward, like most fans. It turns out I should have kept my head about me and continued to be critical. What a disaster this has turned into. It all boils down to one thing for me now. Extremely weak leadership on the football side of the organization. This thing is going to get blown up and the sooner that happens the less time it will take to rebuild. They have assets to work with now to acquire picks to get the young QB they can build around. But they need new leadership first and foremost and until that happens they will continue to go nowhere

[Mothman]

As for the run-pass ratios and the wins-losses, I don't think it's the ratio of run-pass plays that bothers Diggs, but probably more the nature of the losses.

My comment on that wasn't intended to address how Diggs might be feeling about the run/pass ratio but rather the point that keeps being repeated here, that the balance between run and pass has swung too far toward the run and is now detrimental.

If you are a WR and you work your behind off all offseason and then run your behind off all game only to see the chances you are creating slip away consistently because of skittish QB play, I can see that getting under anyone's skin.

Sure, but if you're a QB and you complete a dart over the middle to your WR only for him to cough it up, that's going to sting too. Based on their performance this season, I don't think Thielen or Diggs should be throwing stones, especially the latter, who has dropped passes, committed careless penalties and lost a critical fumble on Sunday.

You can take the teamwork and leadership angle only so far as it relates to individual players IMHO. That road goes both ways. Yeah, guys like Diggs and Thielen do owe their teammates something. But that applies to every member of the team, including the GM and coaches. If guys like Thielen and Diggs are calling it out publicly, to me that means they're not being heard internally, and that goes directly back to the coaches.

Maybe... I'm not eager to give Diggs the benefit of the doubt here. He's playing coy and stirring up trouble. If he has a legit complaint that's not being heard internally and he feels he needs to voice that publicly, he should speak out clearly. Otherwise, he's just creating an unhelpful distraction.

[Mothman]

I think we should be singing those blues. The structure of the offense staff had plenty of question marks as it was being assembled. It was easy to look past those questions up front and look at the potential. I remember thinking to myself, “why would they structure it like this with a team ready to contend” After reading some articles and getting the spin the media likes to put on things I started to question it less and got on board with the excitement of this new arrangement as the way forward, like most fans. It turns out I should have kept my head about me and continued to be critical. What a disaster this has turned into. It all boils down to one thing for me now. Extremely weak leadership on the football side of the organization. This thing is going to get blown up and the sooner that happens the less time it will take to rebuild. They have assets to work with now to acquire picks to get the young QB they can build around. But they need new leadership first and foremost and until that happens they will continue to go nowhere

We're on the same page.

Jim

[TSonn]

I saw the video. Simms is yet another quarterback apologizing for yet another quarterback.

Watch the coaches' film. Cousins missed plenty of opportunities, which he fully admitted on his podcast after watching his own tape. As I've mentioned before, he had some plays with clean pockets and guys open down the field, yet he checked down, and didn't even set his feet to do that. It's a clear indication of a quarterback who's seeing the rush.

I watched the coaches film too and I agree Kirk missed a bunch of open guys. But Diggs can't be upset about just that one game. If that were the case, we'd have heard these rumblings last year against the Bills and Bears (and Battlestar Gallactica). So his frustrations must stem from something more than just the handful of misses in the Bears game. Plus, when you watch the coaches film, Kirk didn't really miss Diggs much - he missed Thielen and Rudolph a few times. Diggs has made more mistakes in the Kirk/Diggs duo this season than Kirk has.

So that's where Chris Simms quote comes into play - maybe there's frustration about the overall scheme. If they lose, they'll lose with bad passing routes/plays. If they win, they'll only throw it 10-15 times. Both are likely to tick off a star WR.

Another thing with Cousins ... he apparently doesn't like throwing to his tight ends. Kyle Rudolph, a solid tight end but not a game-breaker, had a monster year in 2017 because his quarterback targeted him A LOT, especially on third down and the red zone. Rudolph has become an afterthought since Cousins got here. That's what I don't get. The Vikings extended Diggs, Thielen and Rudolph, yet we don't utilize them. Diggs has less than half the targets he had at this point last year, and it's worse for Thielen. Granted, John DeFilippo never saw a down that didn't look like a passing down, but what was the point of extending all these guys if we're not going to actually throw to them?

Kirk loved throwing to Jordan Reed on Washington. Dude was a fantasy monster. Irv Smith is much more Jordan Reed (while Rudolph is much more Jason Witten) so hopefully they start getting that sort of chemistry.

But again, that points more to scheme/coaches than it does Kirk.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I saw the video. Simms is yet another quarterback apologizing for yet another quarterback.

There might be some truth to that but it's definitely not completely true. I have said for how many weeks now that this passing offense looks like a HS team out there? That was well before Simms said anything. I have noticed it myself. I've called out the lack of creativity, the constant under center into 7 step drops, etc. There are problems with this offensive scheme no doubt about it. What I am trying to figure out is are Stefanski/Kubiak being so basic and so against the pass because they want to be or because Zimmer wants them to be?

Last year I kept saying, I DONT CARE who our OL is, there is no reason we cant run the ball with Cook and Murray when guys kept saying "we cant run with this OL" and pulling up all these stats to try and prove it. Hardly anything has changed and we're a top running team in the NFL. This is NO different with the pass game. Nobody can sit there and tell me we cant pass or Cousins cant pass. Cousins has proved that he can shred defenses. He's not Tom Brady but I look at him more like a Matt Stafford. The guy can throw. Period. Maybe he cant run, maybe his awareness sucks, whatever. But the guy can throw the football.

Watch the coaches' film. Cousins missed plenty of opportunities, which he fully admitted on his podcast after watching his own tape. As I've mentioned before, he had some plays with clean pockets and guys open down the field, yet he checked down, and didn't even set his feet to do that. It's a clear indication of a quarterback who's seeing the rush.

Nobody is arguing that he didnt crap his pants given how good their pass rush was and how poor our OL was. He missed open guys yeah. But let's be honest, how often is he missing guys wide open down field. Have you ever heard Diggs or Thielen complain before about it? No. We would have heard it by now. That's what I'm saying with all this, something is off and not adding up. And the more I think this the more I think this pass offense that Stefanski and Kubiak created is hot garbage. They even said it on Good Morning Football, Diggs isnt mad at Cousins. He knows Cousins can and will get him the ball because he did it last year. Diggs had the best year of his career BECAUSE of Kirk Cousins. I could just about guarantee Diggs is mad about this offensive scheme and his utilization more than anything. Stefanski and Kubiak have to figure this high school pass game out.

Another thing with Cousins ... he apparently doesn't like throwing to his tight ends. Kyle Rudolph, a solid tight end but not a game-breaker, had a monster year in 2017 because his quarterback targeted him A LOT, especially on third down and the red zone. Rudolph has become an afterthought since Cousins got here. That's what I don't get. The Vikings extended Diggs, Thielen and Rudolph, yet we don't utilize them. Diggs has less than half the targets he had at this point last year, and it's worse for Thielen. Granted, John DeFilippo never saw a down that didn't look like a passing down, but what was the point of extending all these guys if we're not going to actually throw to them?

Bottom line is, they need to find a way to utilize all of them. And that's where balance comes in. Something we've yet to see since Shurmur left. And there is ZERO reason why this offense cant be balanced. I dont care who the QB is. We should be utilizing Cook, Mattison, Diggs, Thielen, Irv and Rudy. To be honest, Rudy is the one I care least about. Irv is the superior TE at this point and it's not even close. I love Rudy and feel bad for him but the guy might run slower than Rashod Hill at this point. He cant separate at all anymore. He's still a great red zone target but between the 20s Irv is the one that needs to be getting the targets.

And in regards to Cousins throwing to TE's, no I dont buy it. The only reason we know Jordan Reeds name is because of Kirk. He wasnt relevant, Cousins became the starter, he blew up and when Cousins left you dont hear of him anymore. Granted he's injured often but there was no doubt Kirk made him a better player. And Vernon Davis has gone over 500 yards twice since 2013....who was his QB both years? Kirk Cousins. Again, this is offense/scheme based if you ask me. Irv Smith is almost an identical clone to Reed. There is no reason he shouldnt be getting the ball.

Having a strong running game is great. But the balance has swung way too far the other way.

Exactly. Been saying this for weeks now. We are doing the complete opposite of what Flip did. We havent came close to meeting in the middle when it comes to pass vs. run. And I'm sorry but the reason our pass game is 31st in the NFL, is NOT because of Kirk Cousins. Since he's became a starter in 2015, offenses he had led have been ranked as follows:

2015: 11th total pass offense
2016: 2nd total pass offense
2017: 12th total pass offense (Keenums was 11th and Kirk had way less weapons and a much lesser OC that year and was still 12th)
2018: 13th total pass offense

2019: 31st total pass offense

SOMETHING is wrong with this picture and I can tell you its not Kirk Cousins. And to top it all off, this offense has more weapons than any other offense had above. So there is a problem somewhere but I can tell you Cousins isnt the direct cause for that. It goes deeper than that. And by the looks of it, its the 3 headed monster of Zimmer, Stefanski and Kubiak. There is zero reason to run a high school passing offense with Diggs, Thielen, Irv and Rudy, then sprinkling in our RBs as pass catchers. I officially have a heavy watch on this offensive strategy going forward and how they orchestrate things. Something is going on that we are currently unaware of and it could be exactly why Diggs is ticked off....and its not Cousins.

As for Diggs, I've gotten to the point where I feel like if he wants out that badly, then get tons of value for him and send him on his way. Especially if you're only going to target him 3 or 4 times a game. Maybe we can draft a quarterback who plays as well as he talks.

No. This is where Diggs steps up as a leader and figures it the F out. Dont just trade a 26 year old WR because the offense crapped the bed after 4 weeks. FIGURE IT OUT. Make it so he doesnt want a trade. Make it so Thielen isnt ticked off. Get your TEs the ball, run Dalvin out of every formation you can. Let Kirk sling the ball. OPEN up the playbook and BALANCE THIS OFFENSE!!!!

[StumpHunter]

I saw the video. Simms is yet another quarterback apologizing for yet another quarterback.

Watch the coaches' film. Cousins missed plenty of opportunities, which he fully admitted on his podcast after watching his own tape. As I've mentioned before, he had some plays with clean pockets and guys open down the field, yet he checked down, and didn't even set his feet to do that. It's a clear indication of a quarterback who's seeing the rush.

I watched the coaches film too and I agree Kirk missed a bunch of open guys. But Diggs can't be upset about just that one game. If that were the case, we'd have heard these rumblings last year against the Bills and Bears (and Battlestar Gallactica). So his frustrations must stem from something more than just the handful of misses in the Bears game. Plus, when you watch the coaches film, Kirk didn't really miss Diggs much - he missed Thielen and Rudolph a few times. Diggs has made more mistakes in the Kirk/Diggs duo this season than Kirk has.

So that's where Chris Simms quote comes into play - maybe there's frustration about the overall scheme. If they lose, they'll lose with bad passing routes/plays. If they win, they'll only throw it 10-15 times. Both are likely to tick off a star WR.

Another thing with Cousins ... he apparently doesn't like throwing to his tight ends. Kyle Rudolph, a solid tight end but not a game-breaker, had a monster year in 2017 because his quarterback targeted him A LOT, especially on third down and the red zone. Rudolph has become an afterthought since Cousins got here. That's what I don't get. The Vikings extended Diggs, Thielen and Rudolph, yet we don't utilize them. Diggs has less than half the targets he had at this point last year, and it's worse for Thielen. Granted, John DeFilippo never saw a down that didn't look like a passing down, but what was the point of extending all these guys if we're not going to actually throw to them?

Kirk loved throwing to Jordan Reed on Washington. Dude was a fantasy monster. Irv Smith is much more Jordan Reed (while Rudolph is much more Jason Witten) so hopefully they start getting that sort of chemistry.

But again, that points more to scheme/coaches than it does Kirk.

The Packer's game Diggs was open even more.

[Bowhunting Viking]

Ya know, I understand that you work hard and you can get frustrated when things aren't going right. I personally know a former NFL player. I understand the hard work that he put in. I also now see some of the physical toll that he has. He was a solid player in the league for 8 seasons. He wasn't a top paid superstar, but just a good solid player. So he wasn't making the kind of $$$$$$ that guys like the high paid superstars are.. Diggs.. Ramsey.. cough cough. But in him I also see a 34 yr old who is VERY wealthy, has all the free time in the world to spend with his family, is very generous to the small town HS , helping coach and always buying equipment etc. He is set for life, and very appreciative of it.
Now the flipside. I'm starting to get sick of seeing these guys pulling this crap. I know they work hard, and the average career is like 3.5 yrs , and they are at risk yadda yadda. But isn't it amazing how much they just LOVE their organization, and they dont care about anything but the team winning and all that WHEN they are getting close to or ARE signing that huge contract. Then after that it's play to lash out in the media or create a disruption in the locker room or for the team. Then they wanna be traded etc.
And yes I know that it is a 2 way street and owners and G.M.s can turn their backs when they want to. I get it.
But ya know what.. I will 55 in a few wks. I've been working in some capacity since I was about 10. Started out mowing yards and shoveling snow as a kid. Worked all thru H.S. at a local grocery store while playing football, wrestling and baseball. Worked some in college and have been employed my whole life. Never have been unemployed. I still have another 7 yrs or so to go to retire.
So sorry if this pisses anyone off, but today I'm sick and tired of hearing SOME of these guys who if not an idiot with their money, will have enough money by their 30th birthday that their kids kids kids would be set, crying and whining because they felt disrespected, or they didnt get their way, or they aren't getting the ball enough. I've watched wonderful ppl I know who have labored their whole lives struggle in retirement, some even having to take part time jobs, because their damn health insurance payments are too high to make it.
And I know I'm part of the blame cuz I buy all the Vikings gear, and the NFL ticket, and have paid stupid prices for tickets to see them play.
But ya know, today I really wish someone would just blast some of these idiots straight in the face and try and get them to see they PLAY A F#$%^G KID'S GAME and many make MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO DO IT!!! We had another kid from our area , was actually a neighbor of mines son while I was in H.S. who played with the Giants for 2 seasons on the practice squad, and he made damn good money doing that.
Man I'm sorry , but I'm a bit testy right now cuz an injury is keeping me out of the woods, the Vikes are in turmoil.
But I am SO sick and tired of seeing guys who start making the big bucks totally turn into selfish morons.
Speech over. If I pissed u off, sorry. If u agree, great. But I just had to vent. And my wife could give a crap about football, so I vented with buddies at work today who feel the same way. Just wanted to get it out to some fellow Viking fans.
Send me the counseling bill Cliff!!!

[dead_poet]

Diggs was fined this week for his no-show at meetings and practice this week. Apparently not the first time he's missed meetings this year. Not guaranteed Diggs is active but per Pelissero, he thinks he will be.

[Mothman]

Diggs was fined this week for his no-show at meetings and practice this week. Apparently not the first time he's missed meetings this year. Not guaranteed Diggs is active but per Pelissero, he thinks he will be.

Weren't there even rumors in the spring that he was unhappy?

[dead_poet]

Diggs was fined this week for his no-show at meetings and practice this week. Apparently not the first time he's missed meetings this year. Not guaranteed Diggs is active but per Pelissero, he thinks he will be.

Weren't there even rumors in the spring that he was unhappy?

I don't recall. I know he was away training during voluntary stuff, which is not unusual for guys.

[Mothman]

Weren't there even rumors in the spring that he was unhappy?

I don't recall. I know he was away training during voluntary stuff, which is not unusual for guys.

Yeah, that's pretty typical, especially for veterans.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I watched the coaches film too and I agree Kirk missed a bunch of open guys. But Diggs can't be upset about just that one game. If that were the case, we'd have heard these rumblings last year against the Bills and Bears (and Battlestar Gallactica). So his frustrations must stem from something more than just the handful of misses in the Bears game. Plus, when you watch the coaches film, Kirk didn't really miss Diggs much - he missed Thielen and Rudolph a few times. Diggs has made more mistakes in the Kirk/Diggs duo this season than Kirk has.

So that's where Chris Simms quote comes into play - maybe there's frustration about the overall scheme. If they lose, they'll lose with bad passing routes/plays. If they win, they'll only throw it 10-15 times. Both are likely to tick off a star WR.



Kirk loved throwing to Jordan Reed on Washington. Dude was a fantasy monster. Irv Smith is much more Jordan Reed (while Rudolph is much more Jason Witten) so hopefully they start getting that sort of chemistry.

But again, that points more to scheme/coaches than it does Kirk.

The Packer's game Diggs was open even more.

Of course he was. Let’s continue to point the finger at the QB even after my post and TSonn’s saying that’s its bigger than just the QB. You don’t even address mine and respond to his with “Diggs was open more vs GB”. Did you not read what we posted? Did you not even consider the point we’re trying to prove? You can’t. Because the hate you have for cousins completely blinds you from looking or considering the big picture. It’s so obvious it’s not even funny. The second someone says “the defense did this” or “the OL did this” or “the OC did this”, you automatically jump to, “well cousins did this”. It’s ok to see it another way dude. I hate to break it to you but Kirk cousins isn’t single handedly destroying this franchise as much as you think he might be