Case Keenum

[StumpHunter]

Who isn't letting Bridgewater go now?

Don't bait people, especially moderators. I'm just trying to keep the discussion based in fact.

I have come to the realization that there are three Teddy camps among Vikings fans. The group that wishes he was still here and continue to root for him to succeed, the large majority of indifferent fans, and the extremely vocal anti-Teddy contingent, who go on the warpath everytime anyone hints at Teddy's potential. WTF do you all still care this much? Why is it so important to you that people think Teddy sucks?

It's not important to me that people think Teddy sucks. I don't even think he sucks! I just don't think he should be given credit for accomplishments he never achieved. I've always been against misleading myth-making when it comes to players and coaches. I've never been "anti-Teddy" in the sense you're talking about above. I like the guy and hope he does well but from the moment he set foot in MN, there have been efforts to puff him up into a player he's never really been at the NFL level. Maybe he'll get there, maybe he won't. I don't have a horse in that race anymore since he's not a Viking.

However, I do know that he stunk it up in that 2015 regular season finale against GB and dag nab it, I won't be told differn't!

That is what happens with every QB drafted by every team, unless they really suck. People even liked Ponder and he had zero potential. Get ready for more of the same when we draft our next QB this upcoming draft or the next, because I have a bad feeling hope in a future franchise QB will be all we have.

[YikesVikes]

But you cant give week 17 to Peterson either.

I'm not. It was clearly a team win but he was still the focal point of the offense in that game. He just didn't have a particularly successful game.

My response was to Ponders stating that everytime we won was because of Peterson. He was dreadful down the stretch.

I think "dreadful" is pushing it. For Pete's sake, he had 22 carries for 104 yards a week earlier.

The problem later in that season was clear: teams focused on shutting down Peterson because they didn't fear the Vikes passing game at all. The Bears and Giants were both crummy teams that couldn't pull off that strategy. The Cards and Seahawks were able do it successfully and both won. GB contained Peterson too but lost anyway.

Again, the point is the offense ran through Peterson that year. He was the focal point and when that strategy worked, they tended to be successful. When it didn't, they tended to lose in no small part because against quality opponents, the passing game was unable to pick up the slack. Unless an OL is dominant, it's hard for a running back to thrive every week when defenses don't respect the passing game and the latter can't make them pay for it.

That all sounds logically correct. Except, I watched those games. Teams were not doing anything different than they normally did. Peterson simply ran out of steam towards the end of the season. He has several games were he put up good numbers but as a whole, he looked like a different running back. I believe we also lost Loadholt that season as well.

Can we also keep in mind that were are judging a guy who had not yet completed two seasons in the NFL.

[J. Kapp 11]

Bridgewater's record with the Vikings was 18 and 14 and in his second year (and only winning season)

Yep, he only went .500 on a team with a pedestrian run game, a bad defense and very little talent on the offensive side of the ball...as a rookie. The bum!

Teddy had reduced role on that 2015 team and was second fiddle to AP, but he did contribute, made key throws a number of times when asked too, and was a big part of the team going 11-5. Not as big of a part as AP, but a big part. There was potential there, potential that might come out in NO, or maybe fizzles out and he becomes a career backup. One has our GM, HC and some Viking's fans looking like fools, the other would be a real shame for a nice kid, but is probably equally as likely as the former. I guess we will see.

It is funny how a thread called "Case Keenum" has transformed itself into an argument about the merits of Teddy Bridgewater.

But I have to agree with you here. Teddy was making progress and getting better as a quarterback before the devastating injury. You could see it in the preseason of 2016. And as much as the Teddy haters don't want to hear it (and by the way, I am NOT a sycophant ... I just happen to think he's a solid quarterback) he's playing well for New Orleans. Yes, wins are a team thing, but the man has been the starting quarterback for wins over Seattle on the road and Dallas ... when was the last time Kirk Cousins was the winning quarterback on the road against a team that was above .500? Go ahead. Look it up. I'll wait.

There is one connection between Case and Teddy. They were each other's biggest supporters in 2017. Case led the cheers when Teddy got in that game against Cincinnati, while Teddy called Case one of the best guys he'd ever known. Total class on both ends. Oh, and a few wins, too. Which matter. To me.

[Mothman]

That all sounds logically correct. Except, I watched those games. Teams were not doing anything different than they normally did. Peterson simply ran out of steam towards the end of the season. He has several games were he put up good numbers but as a whole, he looked like a different running back. I believe we also lost Loadholt that season as well.

Yes, before the regular season. He tore his ACL.

Can we also keep in mind that were are judging a guy who had not yet completed two seasons in the NFL.

I don't think anybody has lost sight of that.

[Mothman]

At this point, I feel obligated to point out that Kirk Cousins currently has a winning record as a Viking.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Week 17: AP 67 Yards - 20-13 Vikes
Week 15: AP 63 yards - 38-17 Vikes

AP Stats the last 5 weeks of the season wer
2.25 yards per rush
3.00 yards per rush
3.50 yards per rush
4.73 yards per rush
3.53 yards per rush.

Vikes were 3 and 2 in those games.

Lol dude how in gods name can you say teddy won us the GB game?!!! You’re saying AP was bad with 19 carries for 67 yards?? Teddy was downright horrendous! Much worse than what Peterson did.

Teddy was 10-19 for 99 yards, 0 TDs, 1 INT, 1 fumble, sacked 3 times, 5.2 YPA, 52% comp % and had a QB rating of 45.7. Like whaaat??

That’s like me saying Kirk Cousins won us the Atlanta game this year going 8 for 10 for 98 yards and a TD. Could you imagine if I posted that he “won us that game”??! I’d have guys on here so far up my as# that if they spit it was coming out of my mouth. But hell, at least Kirk was accurate and threw a TD. I can’t say one single good thing about that performance by teddy vs GB. But guys are actually defending it?

But this is my whole point with teddy. The likable guy that everyone has pity for is being defended in a game he couldn’t possibly have done less in. If teddy threw for 250+, had 3 tds when AP wasn’t running well, you 100% have an argument. But you couldn’t have possibly picked a worse game to defend him on. Yet, this is what Jim and I are referring to where he’s getting crowned for literally doing nothing.

I’m honestly blown away by this. There is so much cousins hater koolaid going around at this point that guys are claiming that a Vikings QB won us a game by going 10 for 19 for 99 yards, 1 int and a QB rating of 45.7??? But Kirk cousins goes 22-27 for 306 and 2 TDs and guys are like “meh, wasn’t a “winning team”, doesn’t impress me”. This is only example #501 where I said why does this not count and that not count for teddy and Keenum but cousins gets crucified over it?? But some guys are fricken tooting teddys horn for putting up worse numbers than a high school QB saying he “won us that game”. If Kirk cousins put up those numbers teddy did and we miraculously won somehow and I actually claimed he won us that game, I’d probably ask for a forever ban myself out of pure embarrassment. Like I just don’t even get where you guys are coming from at this point. The deep hatred for cousins that some of you guys have is not only blinding you but it’s causing you to lose your common sense

I might have to take a break from this board, I’m at a total loss right now and just absolutely baffled that I just actually read that. Might be time to wave the white flag after that.

[StumpHunter]

So fun fact. Since the merger, only Dan Marino, Drew Bledsoe, Jameis Winston and Ben Roethlesberger had more wins than Teddy by the age of 23. Of those four, only Marino and Big Ben had winning records.

That doesn't mean he was destined to be as good as 3 of those 4 QBs, but it does show just how rare a feat going 17-11 at such a young age is, and why people were so excited about his prospects.

[Mothman]

So fun fact. Since the merger, only Dan Marino, Drew Bledsoe, Jameis Winston and Ben Roethlesberger had more wins than Teddy by the age of 23. Of those four, only Marino and Big Ben had winning records.

That doesn't mean he was destined to be as good as 3 of those 4 QBs, but it does show just how rare a feat going 17-11 at such a young age is, and why people were so excited about his prospects.

That's good company and a fine accomplishment but I wonder how many NFL QBs have even had the opportunity to start 29 games by the age of 23? That's probably a relatively short list.

There's no mystery regarding why people were excited about his prospects.

Looking at Bridgewater's record and saying he's a "winner" may be literally true but in a sport like football, it's also a simplification, as is focusing too much on Cousins' record against teams with winning records. These things can easily become useful rhetorical bats and we all tend to wield them at times but if we look at things logically, in context, we also know it's a team game and outcomes are determined by the team, not just the quarterback.

For example, Kapp wrote above:

Yes, wins are a team thing, but the man has been the starting quarterback for wins over Seattle on the road and Dallas ... when was the last time Kirk Cousins was the winning quarterback on the road against a team that was above .500? Go ahead. Look it up. I'll wait.

The Saints defeated Dallas 12-10 and were unable to score a TD. Is that really a compelling example illustrating that Bridgewater is a "winner"?

Cousins was the QB last season in a road victory against the Eagles in week 5. Philly was the defending SB champion and they went on to finish the season with a winning record but at that particular point in the season, they were a 2-2 team so technically, Cousins wasn't the winning QB against a team with a winning record that day. Is that something that should be held against him? A week later, Cousins went 36-50 for 422 yards, 3 TDs and 0 INTs against the Rams. He lost a fumble in that game but overall, he had a strong performance on the road against an opponent with a winning record. Unfortunately, the Rams put up 565 yards of offense and scored 5 TDs against the Vikings defense so the Vikes lost and that game became another negative notch on Cousins' record against winning teams, even though he actually performed well.

My point is simply to reinforce that these are team wins and losses and we shouldn't get carried away in oversimplifying them into W/L records for the QBs. We all do it at times but we should also be willing to pull back and acknowledge the bigger, more realistic picture.

Put simply: anyone should be able look at this year's Saints/Cowboys game and the Vikes/Rams game from 2018 and easily see how much factors beyond QB performance, particularly defensive performance, influenced the outcomes.

[StumpHunter]

So fun fact. Since the merger, only Dan Marino, Drew Bledsoe, Jameis Winston and Ben Roethlesberger had more wins than Teddy by the age of 23. Of those four, only Marino and Big Ben had winning records.

That doesn't mean he was destined to be as good as 3 of those 4 QBs, but it does show just how rare a feat going 17-11 at such a young age is, and why people were so excited about his prospects.

That's good company and a fine accomplishment but I wonder how many NFL QBs have even had the opportunity to start 29 games by the age of 23? That's probably a relatively short list.

There's no mystery regarding why people were excited about his prospects.

Looking at Bridgewater's record and saying he's a "winner" may be literally true but in a sport like football, it's also a simplification, as is focusing too much on Cousins' record against teams with winning records. These things can easily become useful rhetorical bats and we all tend to wield them at times but if we look at things logically, in context, we also know it's a team game and outcomes are determined by the team, not just the quarterback.

For example, Kapp wrote above:

Yes, wins are a team thing, but the man has been the starting quarterback for wins over Seattle on the road and Dallas ... when was the last time Kirk Cousins was the winning quarterback on the road against a team that was above .500? Go ahead. Look it up. I'll wait.

The Saints defeated Dallas 12-10 and were unable to score a TD. Is that really a compelling example illustrating that Bridgewater is a "winner"?

Cousins was the QB last season in a road victory against the Eagles in week 5. Philly was the defending SB champion and they went on to finish the season with a winning record but at that particular point in the season, they were a 2-2 team so technically, Cousins wasn't the winning QB against a team with a winning record that day. Is that something that should be held against him? A week later, Cousins went 36-50 for 422 yards, 3 TDs and 0 INTs against the Rams. He lost a fumble in that game but overall, he had a strong performance on the road against an opponent with a winning record. Unfortunately, the Rams put up 565 yards of offense and scored 5 TDs against the Vikings defense so the Vikes lost and that game became another negative notch on Cousins' record against winning teams, even though he actually performed well.

My point is simply to reinforce that these are team wins and losses and we shouldn't get carried away in oversimplifying them into W/L records for the QBs. We all do it at times but we should also be willing to pull back and acknowledge the bigger, more realistic picture.

Put simply: anyone should be able look at this year's Saints/Cowboys game and the Vikes/Rams game from 2018 and easily see how much factors beyond QB performance, particularly defensive performance, influenced the outcomes.

There were 31 QBs who met that criteria who also had 17+ starts (had at least one start in their rookie season). If we want to include QBs who were older when drafted or started in their second seasons he has the 8th most wins out of 75 QBs.

Wins is a stat that becomes more relevant the more games started. Going off a single season is worthless, but two seasons starts to show a trend. 4+ seasons and that is pretty much who the QB is.

[Cliff]

The wins/loss record matters insomuch as it shows that there is *some* system/philosophy that a team can use and win with a given QB. Truly terrible QBs aren't able to put together wins regardless of the team around them.

When we talk about guys like Teddy, Case, and Kirk these aren't superstar QBs but what I think both Case and Teddy have up on Cousins is how they play under pressure. They seem to show up in situations where they're needed most or if they don't make it happen, they at least don't look baffled.

[Mothman]

There were 31 QBs who met that criteria who also had 17+ starts (had at least one start in their rookie season). If we want to include QBs who were older when drafted or started in their second seasons he has the 8th most wins out of 75 QBs.

Thanks. The context helps. Where did you get these stats?

Wins is a stat that becomes more relevant the more games started. Going off a single season is worthless, but two seasons starts to show a trend. 4+ seasons and that is pretty much who the QB is.

It's still about the QB and the team on which he plays. That's always true.

The wins/loss record matters insomuch as it shows that there is *some* system/philosophy that a team can use and win with a given QB. Truly terrible QBs aren't able to put together wins regardless of the team around them.

When we talk about guys like Teddy, Case, and Kirk these aren't superstar QBs but what I think both Case and Teddy have up on Cousins is how they play under pressure. They seem to show up in situations where they're needed most or if they don't make it happen, they at least don't look baffled.

I don't think the evidence suggests either has that advantage over Cousins. We certainly saw Bridgewater look rattled and wilt under pressure more at times as a Viking.

Kind of like the drive in that playoff game against Seattle where the team got into FG range at the end. Teddy kind of turned on, took control of the offense, and made it happen. He helped put the team in a position to win in a tough high pressure situation. Cousins just doesn't do that.

he's done it in the past, including for the Vikes. He led a late 4th quarter TD drive for the Vikings and completed a 2 point conversion to force OT against the Packers in 2018. According to ProFootballReference, he has 12 game-winning drives to his credit.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... r=CousKi00

On that drive at the end of the playoff game against Seattle Bridgewater completed one pass (caught about 8 or 9 yards from scrimmage) to Kyle Rudolph, who rumbled for a 24 yard gain to set the the Vikings up in field goal position. From there, they ran Peterson 3 times and brought out Walsh. As you said, Bridgewater made the play he needed to make in a high pressure situation but it was single play and a simple throw for an NFL QB. He made it and that's to his credit but I don't think it was anything Cousins couldn't do in the same situation. It certainly wasn't comparable to a play like the Keenum/Diggs connection at the end of the playoff win over the Saints!

[Cliff]

he's done it in the past, including for the Vikes. He led a late 4th quarter TD drive for the Vikings and completed a 2 point conversion to force OT against the Packers in 2018. According to ProFootballReference, he has 12 game-winning drives to his credit.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... r=CousKi00

On that drive at the end of the playoff game against Seattle Bridgewater completed one pass (caught about 8 or 9 yards from scrimmage) to Kyle Rudolph, who rumbled for a 24 yard gain to set the the Vikings up in field goal position. From there, they ran Peterson 3 times and brought out Walsh. As you said, Bridgewater made the play he needed to make in a high pressure situation but it was single play and a simple throw for an NFL QB. He made it and that's to his credit but I don't think it was anything Cousins couldn't do in the same situation. It certainly wasn't comparable to a play like the Keenum/Diggs connection at the end of the playoff win over the Saints!

Yeah, I actually went back to that game after I posted and edited my posted. It wasn't what I remembered.

Our big difference is I do kind of think it's something Cousins couldn't do. Not physically, of course, but he just seems to break down in those situations. Overthrows, stutter-steps and ends up a second late on the throw.

Maybe it's a case where my eye test doesn't match reality.

[Pondering Her Percy]

The wins/loss record matters insomuch as it shows that there is *some* system/philosophy that a team can use and win with a given QB. Truly terrible QBs aren't able to put together wins regardless of the team around them.

When we talk about guys like Teddy, Case, and Kirk these aren't superstar QBs but what I think both Case and Teddy have up on Cousins is how they play under pressure. They seem to show up in situations where they're needed most or if they don't make it happen, they at least don't look baffled.

Kind of like the drive in that playoff game against Seattle where the team got into FG range at the end. Teddy kind of turned on, took control of the offense, and made it happen. He helped put the team in a position to win in a tough high pressure situation. Cousins just doesn't do that.

When did Teddy show up under pressure? Why is he being credited for being good under pressure? How I remember Teddy under pressure is giving up 2 sacks fumbles in 2015 when the game was on the line.

But because he completed a pass to Rudy in the playoffs that put us in FG range? He literally completed 1 pass that whole drive to Rudy on a quick out that he took for extra yards.

Tell me here where he "turned it on" or "was good under pressure"? And notice what I put in bold. This guy is literally getting crowned for being good under pressure because he complete ONE pass that was a simple out route hoping to get out of bounds and stop the clock. Rudy had time to take it up field. He was 1 for 3 for 24 yards on the drive. And the one complete pass was a big YAC play. This is what Jim and I are referring to. Why is he getting crowned for doing next to nothing?

1st & 10 at MIN 39
(1:42 - 4th) (Shotgun) T.Bridgewater pass incomplete short middle to J.Wright (F.Clark).

2nd & 10 at MIN 39
(1:38 - 4th) (Shotgun) T.Bridgewater pass incomplete deep right to K.Rudolph [B.Wagner]. PENALTY on SEA-K.Chancellor, Defensive Pass Interference, 19 yards, enforced at MIN 39 - No Play.

1st & 10 at SEA 42
(1:34 - 4th) (Shotgun) T.Bridgewater pass short right to K.Rudolph pushed ob at SEA 18 for 24 yards (E.Thomas).

(1:23 - 4th) Timeout #2 by MIN at 01:26.

1st & 10 at SEA 18
(1:26 - 4th) A.Shepherd reported in as eligible. A.Peterson up the middle to SEA 16 for 2 yards (M.Bennett).

(1:23 - 4th) Two-Minute Warning

(1:20 - 4th) Timeout #2 by SEA at 01:20.

2nd & 8 at SEA 16
(1:20 - 4th) A.Peterson up the middle to SEA 12 for 4 yards (A.Rubin, B.Irvin).

(1:15 - 4th) Timeout #3 by SEA at 01:15.

3rd & 4 at SEA 12
(1:15 - 4th) A.Shepherd reported in as eligible. A.Peterson left guard to SEA 9 for 3 yards (D.Shead).

(0:26 - 4th) Timeout #3 by MIN at 00:26.

4th & 1 at SEA 9
(0:26 - 4th) (Field Goal formation) B.Walsh 27 yard field goal is No Good, Wide Left, Center-K.McDermott, Holder-J.Locke.

[YikesVikes]

The wins/loss record matters insomuch as it shows that there is *some* system/philosophy that a team can use and win with a given QB. Truly terrible QBs aren't able to put together wins regardless of the team around them.

When we talk about guys like Teddy, Case, and Kirk these aren't superstar QBs but what I think both Case and Teddy have up on Cousins is how they play under pressure. They seem to show up in situations where they're needed most or if they don't make it happen, they at least don't look baffled.

Kind of like the drive in that playoff game against Seattle where the team got into FG range at the end. Teddy kind of turned on, took control of the offense, and made it happen. He helped put the team in a position to win in a tough high pressure situation. Cousins just doesn't do that.

When did Teddy show up under pressure? Why is he being credited for being good under pressure? How I remember Teddy under pressure is giving up 2 sacks fumbles in 2015 when the game was on the line.

But because he completed a pass to Rudy in the playoffs that put us in FG range? He literally completed 1 pass that whole drive to Rudy on a quick out that he took for extra yards.

Tell me here where he "turned it on" or "was good under pressure"? And notice what I put in bold. This guy is literally getting crowned for being good under pressure because he complete ONE pass that was a simple out route hoping to get out of bounds and stop the clock. Rudy had time to take it up field. He was 1 for 3 for 24 yards on the drive. And the one complete pass was a big YAC play. This is what Jim and I are referring to. Why is he getting crowned for doing next to nothing?

1st & 10 at MIN 39
(1:42 - 4th) (Shotgun) T.Bridgewater pass incomplete short middle to J.Wright (F.Clark).

2nd & 10 at MIN 39
(1:38 - 4th) (Shotgun) T.Bridgewater pass incomplete deep right to K.Rudolph [B.Wagner]. PENALTY on SEA-K.Chancellor, Defensive Pass Interference, 19 yards, enforced at MIN 39 - No Play.

1st & 10 at SEA 42
(1:34 - 4th) (Shotgun) T.Bridgewater pass short right to K.Rudolph pushed ob at SEA 18 for 24 yards (E.Thomas).

(1:23 - 4th) Timeout #2 by MIN at 01:26.

1st & 10 at SEA 18
(1:26 - 4th) A.Shepherd reported in as eligible. A.Peterson up the middle to SEA 16 for 2 yards (M.Bennett).

(1:23 - 4th) Two-Minute Warning

(1:20 - 4th) Timeout #2 by SEA at 01:20.

2nd & 8 at SEA 16
(1:20 - 4th) A.Peterson up the middle to SEA 12 for 4 yards (A.Rubin, B.Irvin).

(1:15 - 4th) Timeout #3 by SEA at 01:15.

3rd & 4 at SEA 12
(1:15 - 4th) A.Shepherd reported in as eligible. A.Peterson left guard to SEA 9 for 3 yards (D.Shead).

(0:26 - 4th) Timeout #3 by MIN at 00:26.

4th & 1 at SEA 9
(0:26 - 4th) (Field Goal formation) B.Walsh 27 yard field goal is No Good, Wide Left, Center-K.McDermott, Holder-J.Locke.

Surprise surprise.. ponder hating on an ex Viking. Dude Teddy's claim to fame has always been his performance in the final two mins and his composure. Some Kirk does not have. Kirk has 0 composure. None. Can I also point out that you're looking for a finished product from a kid that hadn't even played 24 games at that point.

[YikesVikes]

https://247sports.com/nfl/minnesota-vik ... -45736506/