Who had the best draft class of 2019 in the NFC North?

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Re: Who had the best draft class of 2019 in the NFC North?

Post by CharVike » Wed May 29, 2019 9:00 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:18 am
CharVike wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 7:19 am

I wasn't the one who started the comparison. I pointed out the fact that Gibbs won Super Bowls with three bums at QB and he did. Regardless Theisman wasn't as good as some people think. That's why he was a 4th round pick based on his contemporaries also. But your correct comparing guys from different eras is very hard and it wasn't my point. Next you'll point out how great Rypkien was when in fact he wasn't that good. Same with Williams and Theisman. Matter of fact Williams was basically washed up when Gibbs won with him. He had nothing else. Bum is rating to high for that guy at that point. He was finished but won a Super Bowl because the massive OL took the game over. It's not that hard to see.
IMO Rypien and Theisman were both good not great QBs. However, the top notch OL may have made both of them look better than they are. Williams was a one time fluke miraculous performance in the Super Bowl.
The huge OL made that team. They blew the other team up. That's why I like size. Size wins. Our famed purple people eaters are the best example of the smaller guy getting blown up. Kouchenberg for the Dolphins said they were laughing watching pre game film. They knew they had the advantage and our front 4 couldn't take the pounding. Laughing. This isn't a knock on Alan Page because he's a HOFer but Koch push him all over the field during the super bowl. Page at 220 couldn't hold up against the bigger guy and was driven out of the play. Were ever he wanted Page that's were he put him. I know were not running the size scheme. It's Kub's zone block with smaller players and again he had success with it and won the ultimate prize when he had a QB. Don't be surprised when Kirk is taken off the field on a stretcher and that will end the season for us. He took a beating last year and survived. With this rebuild his time might be up. But he will take a beating because eventually he will need to throw. Regardless of the ground heavy approach.
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Re: Who had the best draft class of 2019 in the NFC North?

Post by VikingsVictorious » Wed May 29, 2019 5:40 pm

CharVike wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 9:00 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:18 am


IMO Rypien and Theisman were both good not great QBs. However, the top notch OL may have made both of them look better than they are. Williams was a one time fluke miraculous performance in the Super Bowl.
The huge OL made that team. They blew the other team up. That's why I like size. Size wins. Our famed purple people eaters are the best example of the smaller guy getting blown up. Kouchenberg for the Dolphins said they were laughing watching pre game film. They knew they had the advantage and our front 4 couldn't take the pounding. Laughing. This isn't a knock on Alan Page because he's a HOFer but Koch push him all over the field during the super bowl. Page at 220 couldn't hold up against the bigger guy and was driven out of the play. Were ever he wanted Page that's were he put him. I know were not running the size scheme. It's Kub's zone block with smaller players and again he had success with it and won the ultimate prize when he had a QB. Don't be surprised when Kirk is taken off the field on a stretcher and that will end the season for us. He took a beating last year and survived. With this rebuild his time might be up. But he will take a beating because eventually he will need to throw. Regardless of the ground heavy approach.
Bradford gave up 2 pressures 0 sacks last year.I really doubt that Kirk will get killed because with our improved line their will not be jailbreaks against it. Go Vikings. :govikes:
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Re: Who had the best draft class of 2019 in the NFC North?

Post by StumpHunter » Thu May 30, 2019 7:45 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 5:40 pm
CharVike wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 9:00 am

The huge OL made that team. They blew the other team up. That's why I like size. Size wins. Our famed purple people eaters are the best example of the smaller guy getting blown up. Kouchenberg for the Dolphins said they were laughing watching pre game film. They knew they had the advantage and our front 4 couldn't take the pounding. Laughing. This isn't a knock on Alan Page because he's a HOFer but Koch push him all over the field during the super bowl. Page at 220 couldn't hold up against the bigger guy and was driven out of the play. Were ever he wanted Page that's were he put him. I know were not running the size scheme. It's Kub's zone block with smaller players and again he had success with it and won the ultimate prize when he had a QB. Don't be surprised when Kirk is taken off the field on a stretcher and that will end the season for us. He took a beating last year and survived. With this rebuild his time might be up. But he will take a beating because eventually he will need to throw. Regardless of the ground heavy approach.
Bradford gave up 2 pressures 0 sacks last year.I really doubt that Kirk will get killed because with our improved line their will not be jailbreaks against it. Go Vikings. :govikes:
Bradbury will be an upgrade, he almost has to be. More so on the run blocking side of things than pass blocking though.

Does anyone know if he called out protections in college or was it the QB?
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Re: Who had the best draft class of 2019 in the NFC North?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu May 30, 2019 7:56 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:45 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 5:40 pm

Bradford gave up 2 pressures 0 sacks last year.I really doubt that Kirk will get killed because with our improved line their will not be jailbreaks against it. Go Vikings. :govikes:
Bradbury will be an upgrade, he almost has to be. More so on the run blocking side of things than pass blocking though.

Does anyone know if he called out protections in college or was it the QB?
I thought I read somewhere that he did but dont quote me on that. He will definitely be an upgrade in run blocking. I would still say he was an above average pass blocker in college. How he does in the pros we will soon find out.
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Re: Who had the best draft class of 2019 in the NFC North?

Post by VikingsVictorious » Thu May 30, 2019 8:15 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:56 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:45 am


Bradbury will be an upgrade, he almost has to be. More so on the run blocking side of things than pass blocking though.

Does anyone know if he called out protections in college or was it the QB?
I thought I read somewhere that he did but dont quote me on that. He will definitely be an upgrade in run blocking. I would still say he was an above average pass blocker in college. How he does in the pros we will soon find out.
He was just about without a doubt the best run blocker in the draft. However, 2 pressures and 0 sacks is pretty amazing as a pass blocker. NC State the way I understand it ran a quick passing attack which definitely helped him keep the pressures and sacks down. So I'm not expecting 2 pressures and 0 sacks in the NFL. I will settle for 4 pressures and 1 sack allowed on the season. :govikes:
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Re: Who had the best draft class of 2019 in the NFC North?

Post by CharVike » Thu May 30, 2019 9:02 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:45 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 5:40 pm

Bradford gave up 2 pressures 0 sacks last year.I really doubt that Kirk will get killed because with our improved line their will not be jailbreaks against it. Go Vikings. :govikes:
Bradbury will be an upgrade, he almost has to be. More so on the run blocking side of things than pass blocking though.

Does anyone know if he called out protections in college or was it the QB?
He is a very good pick. Considered by many to be the best at his position. But he will make rookie mistakes they all do. We actually ran the ball well last year. For some reason they didn't want to use it and they canned the OC because of it. Like all teams we need to protect our QB. If you don't then the QB will be knocked out eventually and the season is over at that point.
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Re: Who had the best draft class of 2019 in the NFC North?

Post by StumpHunter » Thu May 30, 2019 9:56 am

CharVike wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 9:02 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:45 am


Bradbury will be an upgrade, he almost has to be. More so on the run blocking side of things than pass blocking though.

Does anyone know if he called out protections in college or was it the QB?
He is a very good pick. Considered by many to be the best at his position. But he will make rookie mistakes they all do. We actually ran the ball well last year. For some reason they didn't want to use it and they canned the OC because of it. Like all teams we need to protect our QB. If you don't then the QB will be knocked out eventually and the season is over at that point.
We ran the ball well when defenses were setup to stop the pass. We were one of the worst in the NFL at run blocking when the defense was setup to stop the run.

Short yardage situations killed us last year because there was zero push on the line. To consistently run the ball well, you need to get push. To occasionally run the ball well, like we did last year, you just need to catch the defense off guard.
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Re: Who had the best draft class of 2019 in the NFC North?

Post by VikingsVictorious » Thu May 30, 2019 11:11 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 9:56 am
CharVike wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 9:02 am

He is a very good pick. Considered by many to be the best at his position. But he will make rookie mistakes they all do. We actually ran the ball well last year. For some reason they didn't want to use it and they canned the OC because of it. Like all teams we need to protect our QB. If you don't then the QB will be knocked out eventually and the season is over at that point.
We ran the ball well when defenses were setup to stop the pass. We were one of the worst in the NFL at run blocking when the defense was setup to stop the run.

Short yardage situations killed us last year because there was zero push on the line. To consistently run the ball well, you need to get push. To occasionally run the ball well, like we did last year, you just need to catch the defense off guard.
My recollection was we sucked running the ball pretty much all the time. Did we have a good YPC? If we did it must have happened late in the season. All I remember was seeing us getting stuffed on the run except for the Miami game.
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Re: Who had the best draft class of 2019 in the NFC North?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu May 30, 2019 12:37 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 9:56 am
CharVike wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 9:02 am

He is a very good pick. Considered by many to be the best at his position. But he will make rookie mistakes they all do. We actually ran the ball well last year. For some reason they didn't want to use it and they canned the OC because of it. Like all teams we need to protect our QB. If you don't then the QB will be knocked out eventually and the season is over at that point.
We ran the ball well when defenses were setup to stop the pass.

Which is more of a reason as to why we should have ran the ball more. But Flip still refused. With the way Flip was running this offense, defenses were set up to stop the pass the majority of the game because that's all we did was....pass. So saying that the only reason we ran the ball well at times was because of that, doesnt carry much weight.

To say our OL was bad at run blocking because of short yardage, ok sure. But there were plenty of runs outside of just short yardage that we did well at. The problem was, we simply didnt do it enough. Rip into the OL all you want regarding their run blocking but the MAIN reason we didnt run the ball well, was because we had an OC that didnt want to run the ball. That put zero effort into running the ball. That even stopped running the ball when we were running all over teams like NE and Sea. That bailed on the run when the going got tough and we were down by a TD or more. You cant tell me that we truly couldnt run the football with Dalvin Cook and Latavius Murray. I say this time and time again. Both of those backs are too good of a combo to just NOT be able to run with them. I wouldnt be surprised if Flip hardly used Fournette and threw his boy Foles all game in Jacksonville. Or maybe the guy finally learned that if he doesnt somehow balance an offense, he's going to get fired.

We were ranked 20th in run blocking in 2018.....

Rank Team YPC First Contact
1 DEN 2.13
2 CIN 1.94
3 NE 1.92
4 SF 1.88
5 CAR 1.88
6 LAC 1.85
7 IND 1.80
8 GB 1.79
9 ATL 1.76
10 LA 1.73
11 MIA 1.71
12 NO 1.68
13 BLT 1.58
14 NYG 1.58
15 KC 1.56
16 PIT 1.52
17 PHI 1.43
18 DAL 1.43
19 SEA 1.42
20 MIN 1.39
21 DET 1.30
22 OAK 1.29
23 WAS 1.29
24 CHI 1.28
25 ARZ 1.24
26 HST 1.17
27 NYJ 1.14
28 BUF 1.11
29 JAX 1.06
30 TB 1.00
31 CLV 0.82
32 TEN 0.79

Spin it any way you want, the run blocking wasnt nearly as bad as many think. It was the play calling that was horrendous. When you're bottom of the league in attempts and also bottom of the league in first contact, you have a bad run blocking offensive line. Ours by no means was great, but it certainly isnt the reason we had little success last year running the football. That was because we were at the bottom of the league in attempts. Which literally shows that we didnt TRY to do it. GB was dead last in attempts last year but was only ONE of two teams that had 5.0 YPC or more. Yet, that is just another team that refused to run the football and put all the weight on their QBs shoulders. Rodgers is the "best in the game" and he cant even get it done without a run game. So why would anyone expect Kirk Cousins to?

I've used this example before and I'll use it again, the Seahawks OL.....is terrible. They always have been. They got credit this year because their run game was #1 in the NFL. But when you look at the chart above, they arent nearly as good as many thought. They barely had us beat in that category. Look at the players along that OL....

LT- Duane Brown- the only OL worth a damn on this team. Was the #5 OT in the NFL.

LG- JR Sweezy- Was the #71 ranked OG according to PFF last year and was so bad Seattle even let him walk this offseason. Guys want to complain about us signing Josh Kline? He was MILES better than both Sweezy and Fluker last year.

C- Justin Britt- was the #29 C according to PFF out of an eligible 39-40 I believe.

RG- DJ Fluker- was the #69 OG according to PFF. Ended up being a flop of a 1st round pick in SD, flopped in NY and then was just as bad in Seattle.

RT- Germain Ifedi- was the #71 OT and has also been a first round flop for them

....but why were they #1 in the NFL in run blocking? Because they COMMITTED to the run. They ran 177 times more than we did on the season. 177!!! We averaged 22 carries a game. Adrian Peterson alone was averaging that or more when he was playing here. And he didnt have great OLs by any means. But we committed to running the ball unlike Flip did this year with Cook and Murray. Nobody can tell me a single reason in the world why you should commit to the run with those 2 RBs. It shouldnt happen. And it did. And that's why Flip lost his job.
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Re: Who had the best draft class of 2019 in the NFC North?

Post by StumpHunter » Thu May 30, 2019 3:12 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 11:11 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 9:56 am


We ran the ball well when defenses were setup to stop the pass. We were one of the worst in the NFL at run blocking when the defense was setup to stop the run.

Short yardage situations killed us last year because there was zero push on the line. To consistently run the ball well, you need to get push. To occasionally run the ball well, like we did last year, you just need to catch the defense off guard.
My recollection was we sucked running the ball pretty much all the time. Did we have a good YPC? If we did it must have happened late in the season. All I remember was seeing us getting stuffed on the run except for the Miami game.
There were a couple of games where we left rushing yards on the field, like against Seattle and NE. They were begging the Vikings to run the ball, and the few times they did, Cook or Murray gauged them for big runs. The Vikings should have been trying to keep them honest, and maybe it would have opened things up in the pass more. I believe we still lose both games regardless, but it wouldn't have been as bad.

Even with a bunch of extra rushes though, this is a below average rushing team last year and that was the biggest weakness on the offense, regardless of coaching. It needs to get better, and should with a better center. Still very concerned about both guards and the oline coach, but I would be shocked if Bradbury doesn't work out.
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Re: Who had the best draft class of 2019 in the NFC North?

Post by VikingsVictorious » Thu May 30, 2019 9:05 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 3:12 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 11:11 am

My recollection was we sucked running the ball pretty much all the time. Did we have a good YPC? If we did it must have happened late in the season. All I remember was seeing us getting stuffed on the run except for the Miami game.
There were a couple of games where we left rushing yards on the field, like against Seattle and NE. They were begging the Vikings to run the ball, and the few times they did, Cook or Murray gauged them for big runs. The Vikings should have been trying to keep them honest, and maybe it would have opened things up in the pass more. I believe we still lose both games regardless, but it wouldn't have been as bad.

Even with a bunch of extra rushes though, this is a below average rushing team last year and that was the biggest weakness on the offense, regardless of coaching. It needs to get better, and should with a better center. Still very concerned about both guards and the oline coach, but I would be shocked if Bradbury doesn't work out.
You're concerned about Dennison? :shock:
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Re: Who had the best draft class of 2019 in the NFC North?

Post by StumpHunter » Fri May 31, 2019 6:01 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 9:05 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 3:12 pm


There were a couple of games where we left rushing yards on the field, like against Seattle and NE. They were begging the Vikings to run the ball, and the few times they did, Cook or Murray gauged them for big runs. The Vikings should have been trying to keep them honest, and maybe it would have opened things up in the pass more. I believe we still lose both games regardless, but it wouldn't have been as bad.

Even with a bunch of extra rushes though, this is a below average rushing team last year and that was the biggest weakness on the offense, regardless of coaching. It needs to get better, and should with a better center. Still very concerned about both guards and the oline coach, but I would be shocked if Bradbury doesn't work out.
You're concerned about Dennison? :shock:
Yes. The fans HATE him in Denver and he is the main reason the Broncos didn't hire Kubiak as OC. Kubes wanted to bring in Dennison and that was the deal breaker.
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Re: Who had the best draft class of 2019 in the NFC North?

Post by VikingsVictorious » Fri May 31, 2019 7:59 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 6:01 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 9:05 pm

You're concerned about Dennison? :shock:
Yes. The fans HATE him in Denver and he is the main reason the Broncos didn't hire Kubiak as OC. Kubes wanted to bring in Dennison and that was the deal breaker.
Very interesting. I wonder what he did to deserve the hate.
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Re: Who had the best draft class of 2019 in the NFC North?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri May 31, 2019 9:47 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 3:12 pm

Even with a bunch of extra rushes though, this is a below average rushing team last year and that was the biggest weakness on the offense, regardless of coaching.
And right there is where I have to disagree. It's not just "regardless of coaching". Coaching is everything. If you have a bad play caller, it's not just an effect on a position or two, it's the entire offense. I dont know how someone can say our rushing offense is good or bad because bottom line is, we didnt run the ball!

Cooks carries under Flip:
16
10
10
10
9
10
9
13

Murrays carries under Flip (when starting):
2
11
24
15
13

Two times in 13 games our starting RB had 16 carries or more. EIGHT times out of 13 our starting RB had 11 carries or less. That is flat out not committing to running the football. Period. Use the OL as an excuse, whatever. Bottom line is, Flip didnt find a way to balance this offense out. Our OL wasnt great at pass blocking either but we still threw 40 times a game. Outside of Thielen and Diggs, your next best offensive player, Dalvin Cook (maybe even best when given the ball) is getting roughly 10 carries a game. That is downright unacceptable REGARDLESS of who is on your OL. We could have an OL of Rashod Hill, Tom Compton, Cornelius Edison, Mike Remmers and TJ Clemmings and it's still no reason to hand the ball to a player of Cook's caliber 10 times a game.

It's not "regardless of coaching", it's regardless of who your OL consists of. You dont go into a season saying, we're going to pass more because we dont have a good run blocking OL. It's all about the scheme and what the OC is calling. And Flip wasnt calling run plays nearly as often as he should. Given what our OL was this year, there was no reason anyone should sit there and say, we should pass nearly double as much as we should run. Saying we didnt run because the OL "was bad a run blocking" is a poor poor excuse on Flips part or anyones part if that's what they were thinking. The fact that Flip was SO clueless that he didnt even continue to run the ball with Cook vs. NE, Sea and Detroit or Murray vs. a team like New Orleans literally blows my mind. These guys are VOLUME RBs. Especially Murray. He was the definition of a volume RB. Adrian Peterson was the same way. You dont give Adrian Peterson 10 carries a game because he's probably going to have about 25 yards. But he's going to break off a few big ones with time. Cook is just so damn explosive that there isnt a reason in the world he should be getting the football.

Again, coaching is everything. If you want success, you find ways to pound the football and balance your offense. Period. I dont care if you have 5 trash cans out there for offensive lineman. You find a way to get it done. And Flip didnt and in turn, Flip was fired.
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Re: Who had the best draft class of 2019 in the NFC North?

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri May 31, 2019 9:54 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 7:59 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 6:01 am


Yes. The fans HATE him in Denver and he is the main reason the Broncos didn't hire Kubiak as OC. Kubes wanted to bring in Dennison and that was the deal breaker.
Very interesting. I wonder what he did to deserve the hate.
I never really understood it either. He is often praised by beat writers, media, etc but the fans cant stand him in Denver. Granted Denver's OL wasnt great this year by any means. They had a better OL than we did but nothing to write home about. Granted, they dont have much for young talent on that OL either in Dennison's defense. Outside of Paradis, their starters were a bunch of decent to washed up vets and Bolles who was awful this year. Leary landed on IR. Billy Turner is an absolute train wreck that somehow got paid in FA this year (luckily by the Packers). So again, in Dennison's defense, he didnt have much to work with. Here he has Bradbury, Elflein, O'Neill, Samia, etc. With a few vets like Kline and Reiff mixed in.
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