2018 Offense Autopsy Redux - What really went wrong?

[halfgiz]

One of the things that happened on offensive was Rick failed to replace Berger when he retired.
Berger was probably our best offensive linemen. Not replacing him should have been a crime.
Then Easton went down and that hurt. Elf played like crap the whole season.nobody was really expecting that...he was the lowest rated active center.

We traded a pick for a center who was rated in the top 10 while playing center for the Gaints.
He had 3 starts till Elf came back and I thought he played decent. After Elf came back he played 5 plays the rest of the season. I blame that on Rick...I actually thought Shumur was actually trying to do us a favor by trading Jones.

Cook was hobbled in the beginning of the season. That also hurt some. I thought we should have run Murray more.

Defensive Zimmer didn't really know how to go about playing Barr, he couldn't really figure out how to use his strengths. I also blame a weak LB-ing corp-Gedon and Brothers being slow hurting us on some critical plays.
Wilson didn't do bad filling in for Barr I thought he had a good season. But we need to get quicker at LBer.

Kicker wish we would have keep Carlson.
Heck our long snapper lost part of his finger. When is the last time you heard of that.

That's my opinion of some of the things that went wrong.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Dude come on. I do not recall a single person on this board thinking Thielen could be the "answer". Sure some wanted to see him play more, but not one person on here wanted him to take over as a starter. Maybe out of desperation but nobody thought he was any kind of long term answer like he has been at WR. Guys are on here saying we need a receiver still going into 2019 when we have Diggs and Thielen, but are you going to sit there and say we werent desperate for one in 2016? Thielen had half of his yearly catches in one game in 2015. Diggs showed potential. After that, the cabinet was empty for the most part outside of a #3 in Wright. It's like saying we want Chad Beebe to be our #3. Well outside of one game vs Detroit, he had one catch on the year. Do you think he's our future #3? Right NOW? No. Nobody does. We all want to see him get more time but nobody is banking on him.

And in 2016 we didnt need a #3. We needed a #2, possibly a #1. If Adam Thielen didnt exist right now and we had Diggs only and an empty cupboard after that heading into 2019 , would you be saying drafting college footballs best WR in the first round would be a mistake?? And instead say "no, lets try out Chad Beebe and go in a different direction in the first round because I think Beebe could be the answer". Nobody in the right mind is just going to rely on an undrafted free agent with limited offensive snaps to just take over the reigns at #1 or #2. Its just not realistic. Look at Kurt Warner. He had Holmgren for a HC, Mariucci as a QB coach and Andy Reid as an offensive assistant in GB and he was CUT. HOW DO THEY NOT NOTICE HIM??? Right? That's what you're saying regarding Spielman. The guy was bagging groceries and gave up on the NFL after he was cut by GB. The Rams took a chance on him but the only reason he ended up being a starter was because Trent Green went down. Outside of that, nobody probably would've ever know who Kurt Warner was. You had 3 solid NFL minds that completely missed on Warners talent. Are they bad coaches now?

As for him being on the roster for two years at that point....ok? Watching him in practice and drills compared to watching him in a game are two completely different animals. Everson Griffen didnt become a starter until his 5th season. Danielle Hunter didnt become a starter until his 3rd season. And those two were actually drafted! Anthony Harris didnt become a starter until his 4th season and became the #4 safety in the entire league according to PFF. Like...it happens all the time on every NFL roster. Guys come on early or they come on late. They might be studs but dont get their opportunity until later in their career. Like you're acting like this guy was some practice hero stud in his first two years that Rick intentionally ignored and had the coaches keep him off the field. Like you could go back forever and list off guys that came on a few years or more into their career that had excellent coaches and or GMs but they still didnt play much to start out. You could literally make a never ending list of players like that. So I'm not sure where you're really trying to go with this but Thielen was looked at as a special teamer that had potential for AT BEST a #3 role on this team at the time. You wont convince me different there.

As for giving Rick credit for getting Thielen here.... the only teams to offer him contracts after his regional combine was Minnesota and Carolina. Who do you think offered him that contract? Not Rick Spielman? And when he tried out for the Vikings, he ended up making the team and someone else was cut so Thielen could be kept. Who do you think were the guys that made that cut? Not Spielman and Zimmer? Do you realize how many guys they watch/workout/give a tryout to that are from the state of Minnesota? Tons over the years. Do you know how many made it in the last 5 years? Freuchte, Thielen and Ham. In the last 10 years, add Sherels to that list. 4 guys in 10 years. Do you know how many guys they've worked out from Minnesota in the last 10 years? More than you can count. So just because he was from the state of Minnesota and went to school at Mankato doesnt mean he just gets the golden ticket onto the team. His talent WAS noticed. He was watched by our regional scouts and then offered a contract, given a tryout and kept on this team all by.....you guessed it, Rick Spielman. He could have then been cut at any time within those next few years with no penalty like many UDFA/fringe players and he wasnt. Any guess who made that decision? Rick Spielman.

Sorry but saying "pure luck brought us Adam Thielen" couldnt be more of a joke of a comment. That sounds like "I'm just being a Spielman hater" type comment to be honest. Because Spielman never had to offer him a contract, never had to give him a tryout, never had to cut someone else to keep him and never had to keep him on the roster for years following that. But he did. And that is exactly why Spielman 100% deserves a lot of credit for Adam Thielen.

So Rick knew what a talent Theilen was, but waited to pick him up until he was undrafted. ok, gotcha LOLOLOL

Dude did you literally not read that post? You want to say I’m like a “gnat that keeps bothering you”, look at yourself right now! You’re like a child. That clearly didn’t read my post. I can’t begin to express how clueless you truly are especially after getting that out of what I posted....but again that’s just you trying to belittle people instead of bringing anything relevant to this board. Not once did I say Spielman realized from the start “what a talent he was”. Not a soul knew he would develop into what he has. But clearly caught Spielmans attention because why else would Spielman go after him? Why else would Speilman keep him after final cuts? If he didn’t see anything in him, he’d cut him just like he would most undrafted free agents. Do you think he just kept UDFAs like Thielen and Harris because he felt like it or it was “lucky”. You keep players like Theilen because you see potential. You never know how much you’ll get out of it, but you see potential. And in turn it worked out tremendously. Spielman clearly saw potential otherwise he would have cut him. Why would Speilman not get credit for seeing potential and keeping him as long as he did? God forbid you ever give Spielman any credit at all. I’m sure you’d have an excuse as to why any good player is on this team. Because some other guy must have been drafting them. Not Rick Spielman. You are just a true hater of Rick Spielman. He could draft the next nfl mvp and somehow he wouldn’t get an ounce of credit in your book or it would be “lucky”. It’s so obvious it’s not even funny. You would think you would eventually learn because the amount of times you’ve had to eat crow have been more than I can count but clearly you haven’t nor will you ever admit you were wrong

[PurpleKoolaid]

So Rick knew what a talent Theilen was, but waited to pick him up until he was undrafted. ok, gotcha LOLOLOL

Dude did you literally not read that post? You want to say I’m like a “gnat that keeps bothering you”, look at yourself right now! You’re like a child. That clearly didn’t read my post. I can’t begin to express how clueless you truly are especially after getting that out of what I posted....but again that’s just you trying to belittle people instead of bringing anything relevant to this board. Not once did I say Spielman realized from the start “what a talent he was”. Not a soul knew he would develop into what he has. But clearly caught Spielmans attention because why else would Spielman go after him? Why else would Speilman keep him after final cuts? If he didn’t see anything in him, he’d cut him just like he would most undrafted free agents. Do you think he just kept UDFAs like Thielen and Harris because he felt like it or it was “lucky”. You keep players like Theilen because you see potential. You never know how much you’ll get out of it, but you see potential. And in turn it worked out tremendously. Spielman clearly saw potential otherwise he would have cut him. Why would Speilman not get credit for seeing potential and keeping him as long as he did? God forbid you ever give Spielman any credit at all. I’m sure you’d have an excuse as to why any good player is on this team. Because some other guy must have been drafting them. Not Rick Spielman. You are just a true hater of Rick Spielman. He could draft the next nfl mvp and somehow he wouldn’t get an ounce of credit in your book or it would be “lucky”. It’s so obvious it’s not even funny. You would think you would eventually learn because the amount of times you’ve had to eat crow have been more than I can count but clearly you haven’t nor will you ever admit you were wrong

bzzzzz

[PurpleKoolaid]

One of the things that happened on offensive was Rick failed to replace Berger when he retired.
Berger was probably our best offensive linemen. Not replacing him should have been a crime.
Then Easton went down and that hurt. Elf played like crap the whole season.nobody was really expecting that...he was the lowest rated active center.

We traded a pick for a center who was rated in the top 10 while playing center for the Gaints.
He had 3 starts till Elf came back and I thought he played decent. After Elf came back he played 5 plays the rest of the season. I blame that on Rick...I actually thought Shumur was actually trying to do us a favor by trading Jones.

Cook was hobbled in the beginning of the season. That also hurt some. I thought we should have run Murray more.

Defensive Zimmer didn't really know how to go about playing Barr, he couldn't really figure out how to use his strengths. I also blame a weak LB-ing corp-Gedon and Brothers being slow hurting us on some critical plays.
Wilson didn't do bad filling in for Barr I thought he had a good season. But we need to get quicker at LBer.

Kicker wish we would have keep Carlson.
Heck our long snapper lost part of his finger. When is the last time you heard of that.

That's my opinion of some of the things that went wrong.

I agree with most of your post.

Rick neglected the Oline for too long. He didnt know how to replace the guys with injuries or that left. Much like the QB position, Rick doesnt know how to draft good ones. This is part of the reason I want him gone, and hopefully to the Bears, Packers, or Lions. A man can dream...

Neither Rick nor Zimmer MAKING Flip have more running plays really hurt us. Cook is a bit injury prone, but he can do a lot more then what they let him do last year. We really need a RB thats as good as Murray was last season. I dont think this Oline will be that much better at opening holes, so we need a bruiser. Maybe Ham can get some more carries. Kubiak was brought in to improve our running game. If he does, guess who the new OC or even HC will be.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Dude did you literally not read that post? You want to say I’m like a “gnat that keeps bothering you”, look at yourself right now! You’re like a child. That clearly didn’t read my post. I can’t begin to express how clueless you truly are especially after getting that out of what I posted....but again that’s just you trying to belittle people instead of bringing anything relevant to this board. Not once did I say Spielman realized from the start “what a talent he was”. Not a soul knew he would develop into what he has. But clearly caught Spielmans attention because why else would Spielman go after him? Why else would Speilman keep him after final cuts? If he didn’t see anything in him, he’d cut him just like he would most undrafted free agents. Do you think he just kept UDFAs like Thielen and Harris because he felt like it or it was “lucky”. You keep players like Theilen because you see potential. You never know how much you’ll get out of it, but you see potential. And in turn it worked out tremendously. Spielman clearly saw potential otherwise he would have cut him. Why would Speilman not get credit for seeing potential and keeping him as long as he did? God forbid you ever give Spielman any credit at all. I’m sure you’d have an excuse as to why any good player is on this team. Because some other guy must have been drafting them. Not Rick Spielman. You are just a true hater of Rick Spielman. He could draft the next nfl mvp and somehow he wouldn’t get an ounce of credit in your book or it would be “lucky”. It’s so obvious it’s not even funny. You would think you would eventually learn because the amount of times you’ve had to eat crow have been more than I can count but clearly you haven’t nor will you ever admit you were wrong

bzzzzz

And that’s what you come back with....mature dude. Like I said, grow up.

[StumpHunter]

Dude come on. I do not recall a single person on this board thinking Thielen could be the "answer". Sure some wanted to see him play more, but not one person on here wanted him to take over as a starter. Maybe out of desperation but nobody thought he was any kind of long term answer like he has been at WR. Guys are on here saying we need a receiver still going into 2019 when we have Diggs and Thielen, but are you going to sit there and say we werent desperate for one in 2016? Thielen had half of his yearly catches in one game in 2015. Diggs showed potential. After that, the cabinet was empty for the most part outside of a #3 in Wright. It's like saying we want Chad Beebe to be our #3. Well outside of one game vs Detroit, he had one catch on the year. Do you think he's our future #3? Right NOW? No. Nobody does. We all want to see him get more time but nobody is banking on him.

And in 2016 we didnt need a #3. We needed a #2, possibly a #1. If Adam Thielen didnt exist right now and we had Diggs only and an empty cupboard after that heading into 2019 , would you be saying drafting college footballs best WR in the first round would be a mistake?? And instead say "no, lets try out Chad Beebe and go in a different direction in the first round because I think Beebe could be the answer". Nobody in the right mind is just going to rely on an undrafted free agent with limited offensive snaps to just take over the reigns at #1 or #2. Its just not realistic. Look at Kurt Warner. He had Holmgren for a HC, Mariucci as a QB coach and Andy Reid as an offensive assistant in GB and he was CUT. HOW DO THEY NOT NOTICE HIM??? Right? That's what you're saying regarding Spielman. The guy was bagging groceries and gave up on the NFL after he was cut by GB. The Rams took a chance on him but the only reason he ended up being a starter was because Trent Green went down. Outside of that, nobody probably would've ever know who Kurt Warner was. You had 3 solid NFL minds that completely missed on Warners talent. Are they bad coaches now?

As for him being on the roster for two years at that point....ok? Watching him in practice and drills compared to watching him in a game are two completely different animals. Everson Griffen didnt become a starter until his 5th season. Danielle Hunter didnt become a starter until his 3rd season. And those two were actually drafted! Anthony Harris didnt become a starter until his 4th season and became the #4 safety in the entire league according to PFF. Like...it happens all the time on every NFL roster. Guys come on early or they come on late. They might be studs but dont get their opportunity until later in their career. Like you're acting like this guy was some practice hero stud in his first two years that Rick intentionally ignored and had the coaches keep him off the field. Like you could go back forever and list off guys that came on a few years or more into their career that had excellent coaches and or GMs but they still didnt play much to start out. You could literally make a never ending list of players like that. So I'm not sure where you're really trying to go with this but Thielen was looked at as a special teamer that had potential for AT BEST a #3 role on this team at the time. You wont convince me different there.

As for giving Rick credit for getting Thielen here.... the only teams to offer him contracts after his regional combine was Minnesota and Carolina. Who do you think offered him that contract? Not Rick Spielman? And when he tried out for the Vikings, he ended up making the team and someone else was cut so Thielen could be kept. Who do you think were the guys that made that cut? Not Spielman and Zimmer? Do you realize how many guys they watch/workout/give a tryout to that are from the state of Minnesota? Tons over the years. Do you know how many made it in the last 5 years? Freuchte, Thielen and Ham. In the last 10 years, add Sherels to that list. 4 guys in 10 years. Do you know how many guys they've worked out from Minnesota in the last 10 years? More than you can count. So just because he was from the state of Minnesota and went to school at Mankato doesnt mean he just gets the golden ticket onto the team. His talent WAS noticed. He was watched by our regional scouts and then offered a contract, given a tryout and kept on this team all by.....you guessed it, Rick Spielman. He could have then been cut at any time within those next few years with no penalty like many UDFA/fringe players and he wasnt. Any guess who made that decision? Rick Spielman.

Sorry but saying "pure luck brought us Adam Thielen" couldnt be more of a joke of a comment. That sounds like "I'm just being a Spielman hater" type comment to be honest. Because Spielman never had to offer him a contract, never had to give him a tryout, never had to cut someone else to keep him and never had to keep him on the roster for years following that. But he did. And that is exactly why Spielman 100% deserves a lot of credit for Adam Thielen.

So Rick knew what a talent Theilen was, but waited to pick him up until he was undrafted. ok, gotcha LOLOLOL

If Thielen went to Colorado State instead of MN State Mankato, he would not be a Viking right now. If the location of the school a player attends is the main factor in attaining the player, that is luck, not good GMing. Rick thinks AT is a good special teamer after two seasons and keeps him around because of it makes him a good elevaluator of talent? How could he possibly have know a "random white WR" (hmmm, random implies luck doesn't it?) who outplayed everyone but Diggs in practice and training camp would be a good WR.

How could he have possibly known that a RT who wasn't all that good at RT might not make a good RG.

That is just asking way to much of a GM, knowing the players you have on your roster...

Kurt Warner...lol.

[Pondering Her Percy]

So Rick knew what a talent Theilen was, but waited to pick him up until he was undrafted. ok, gotcha LOLOLOL

If Thielen went to Colorado State instead of MN State Mankato, he would not be a Viking right now. If the location of the school a player attends is the main factor in attaining the player, that is luck, not good GMing. Rick thinks AT is a good special teamer after two seasons and keeps him around because of it makes him a good elevaluator of talent? How could he possibly have know a "random white WR" (hmmm, random implies luck doesn't it?) who outplayed everyone but Diggs in practice and training camp would be a good WR.

How could he have possibly known that a RT who wasn't all that good at RT might not make a good RG.

That is just asking way to much of a GM, knowing the players you have on your roster...

Kurt Warner...lol.

You are still missing the entire point. Minnesota wasnt Thielen's only contract offer. He received an offer from Carolina as well. How would Carolina have any idea who Adam Thielen was then? Charlotte is over 1,000 miles away from Minnesota. The point is, teams have scouts all over. Not just in their own state. Your point of saying "if Thielen went to Colorado State, he wouldnt be a Viking" is completely false. Thielen made the choice to pick the Vikings. He could have easily picked Carolina. However, he himself wasnt even sure if he would make the team and he grew up a Vikings fan. Bottom line was, SOMEONE offered him that contract. Nobody was holding a gun to Spielmans head saying you need to offer this kid a contract.

You're saying that the reason Rick kept Thielen was because he went to Mankato. And in my previous post, I proved why that is false. Do you realize how many local guys we tried out that did NOT make our team over the years? Like I said, more than you can count. Rick didnt HAVE to keep Adam Thielen, he didnt even have to offer him a contract. How do you know that Rick only saw him as strictly a special teamer? It's not like the guy went to practice every day only doing special teams and never running routes. Not once did I claim that Spielman knew he was going to be a stud WR. Not a person on this earth thought that. But bottom line is, he saw his potential as a football player. Something along the lines of "this kid can be a solid special teamer and maybe help us at WR". You and PK want to jump down my throat like I'm claiming Spielman knew he was going to be as good as he was. Not once did I ever say that. He saw potential as an overall football player and offered him a contract. Spielman could have cut him in 2014 or 2015 or hell, even 2016 before the season started. You claim that "Spielman didnt notice he had a good game vs Denver in 2015", yet he was given significant playing time in 2016 with a first round rookie on the bench. Started most of the games that year. That is Spielman noticing that the kid could play and that he was developing into a good WR. How good? Nobody really knew still. But he was given his opportunity and ran with it. Who do you think made all these decisions, or at least most of them? It's the GM! Why are you in such denial over that?

Bottom line is, Rick never HAD to offer him a contract, Rick never HAD to cut someone else so Thielen could make the team, Rick COULD have cut him at any time with zero penalty, Rick COULD have kept him on the bench and started Treadwell instead or heck, even sign another WR to start/play until they thought Treadwell was ready and so on. Spielman WAS the one that made all these decisions and he is currently the reason we have Adam Thielen on this roster. Rick 100% deserves credit for that.

And as a side note, that is why I said for so long that I truly dont believe that Treadwell developed the way he could have because of Thielen emerging. If Thielen never amounted to anything, Treadwell would have been getting significant playing time much, much sooner than he did. That's a big reason why I wouldnt call Treadwell a bust until he actually received more of an opportunity than a few offensive snaps a game. Thielen got so good so fast, that there was no benching him. And obviously we werent benching Diggs. Granted, this year, Treadwell got more time and he didnt perform and in turn, I then called him a bust. It always makes me wonder that if the situation we had with Thielen emerging never happened, would Treadwell have been better? Who knows. He had the talent in college thats for sure. I kind of wish he would go to a team that doesnt have much at WR and see him getting significant time, just to see how he would perform. But at this rate, that might not ever happen. I mean Kevin fricken White is still getting chances so who knows. I'd take Treadwell over that guy any day of the week. And White actually went to a team this offseason (Arz) that doesnt have a whole lot at WR with Larry at the end of the line. Kirk is their only hope. But if Treadwell went somewhere like SF with Jimmy G, I'd like to see what happens. I could guarantee that if he happened to perform somewhere else, fans would be calling for Spielmans head. Its funny how fans flip flop so easily on someone.

But again, the whole start of this conversation was regarding Treadwell and us drafting him instead of OL when we had nobody outside of Diggs. NOBODY knew Thielen would perform like he did in 2016. We NEEDED a WR bad. So I dont blame Spielman for taking arguably the best WR in college football that year. Nobody was saying "this guy is raw" like they did with Kevin White. Nobody was questioning that Treadwell couldnt at least be an average WR. We thought we struck gold because Corey Coleman went, Fuller went and Doctson went and the majority thought Treadwell was the best in the class. None of those WRs really developed but even if they eventually did, no matter which one we drafted, they had no shot starting with Thielen emerging like he did. But at the same time, NOBODY can predict that. Especially with a guy like Thielen that was a special teamer that was undrafted.

This year, if we were to draft a left guard like Chris Lindstrom in the first round because we desperately need one, and they start Aviante Collins at left guard to start the season until Lindstrom is ready and Collins turns into a stud and Kline is playing well at RG, do you bench Collins just because you have a first round pick on the bench? And is that called a stupid draft pick on Spielmans part? And does Spielman also not get credit for keeping Collins for the past few years? A situation like that would be almost exactly like Thielen/Treadwells situation. Now all of the sudden guys want to act like we didnt need a WR desperately in 2016? Come on. Guys said they wouldnt be opposed to drafting a WR in the first this year, and we have the best WR duo in the NFL! But drafting Treadwell in 2016 was a "terrible pick", or "Rick doesnt know how to judge offensive talent" and so on. So if the Treadwell pick was terrible and Rick doesnt know what he's doing, you guys are going to say the same thing if Lindstrom is our pick this year and Collins develops into a solid LG and Lindstrom sits the bench for 3-4 years? I highly doubt that.

Either way, not once did I say Spielman knew Thielen would develop into the next top WR in the NFL but Spielman 100% deserves credit for signing Thielen and keeping him as long as he did and then letting him get his opportunity because it clearly paid off given how good Thielen is now. To say it was luck, is complete bologna. NFL teams have scouts all over the country and have access to any players they want. Otherwise, Carolina wouldnt have known about him or offered him a contract. Period.

[WallytheVike]

Dude come on. I do not recall a single person on this board thinking Thielen could be the "answer". Sure some wanted to see him play more, but not one person on here wanted him to take over as a starter. Maybe out of desperation but nobody thought he was any kind of long term answer like he has been at WR. Guys are on here saying we need a receiver still going into 2019 when we have Diggs and Thielen, but are you going to sit there and say we werent desperate for one in 2016? Thielen had half of his yearly catches in one game in 2015. Diggs showed potential. After that, the cabinet was empty for the most part outside of a #3 in Wright. It's like saying we want Chad Beebe to be our #3. Well outside of one game vs Detroit, he had one catch on the year. Do you think he's our future #3? Right NOW? No. Nobody does. We all want to see him get more time but nobody is banking on him.

And in 2016 we didnt need a #3. We needed a #2, possibly a #1. If Adam Thielen didnt exist right now and we had Diggs only and an empty cupboard after that heading into 2019 , would you be saying drafting college footballs best WR in the first round would be a mistake?? And instead say "no, lets try out Chad Beebe and go in a different direction in the first round because I think Beebe could be the answer". Nobody in the right mind is just going to rely on an undrafted free agent with limited offensive snaps to just take over the reigns at #1 or #2. Its just not realistic. Look at Kurt Warner. He had Holmgren for a HC, Mariucci as a QB coach and Andy Reid as an offensive assistant in GB and he was CUT. HOW DO THEY NOT NOTICE HIM??? Right? That's what you're saying regarding Spielman. The guy was bagging groceries and gave up on the NFL after he was cut by GB. The Rams took a chance on him but the only reason he ended up being a starter was because Trent Green went down. Outside of that, nobody probably would've ever know who Kurt Warner was. You had 3 solid NFL minds that completely missed on Warners talent. Are they bad coaches now?

As for him being on the roster for two years at that point....ok? Watching him in practice and drills compared to watching him in a game are two completely different animals. Everson Griffen didnt become a starter until his 5th season. Danielle Hunter didnt become a starter until his 3rd season. And those two were actually drafted! Anthony Harris didnt become a starter until his 4th season and became the #4 safety in the entire league according to PFF. Like...it happens all the time on every NFL roster. Guys come on early or they come on late. They might be studs but dont get their opportunity until later in their career. Like you're acting like this guy was some practice hero stud in his first two years that Rick intentionally ignored and had the coaches keep him off the field. Like you could go back forever and list off guys that came on a few years or more into their career that had excellent coaches and or GMs but they still didnt play much to start out. You could literally make a never ending list of players like that. So I'm not sure where you're really trying to go with this but Thielen was looked at as a special teamer that had potential for AT BEST a #3 role on this team at the time. You wont convince me different there.

As for giving Rick credit for getting Thielen here.... the only teams to offer him contracts after his regional combine was Minnesota and Carolina. Who do you think offered him that contract? Not Rick Spielman? And when he tried out for the Vikings, he ended up making the team and someone else was cut so Thielen could be kept. Who do you think were the guys that made that cut? Not Spielman and Zimmer? Do you realize how many guys they watch/workout/give a tryout to that are from the state of Minnesota? Tons over the years. Do you know how many made it in the last 5 years? Freuchte, Thielen and Ham. In the last 10 years, add Sherels to that list. 4 guys in 10 years. Do you know how many guys they've worked out from Minnesota in the last 10 years? More than you can count. So just because he was from the state of Minnesota and went to school at Mankato doesnt mean he just gets the golden ticket onto the team. His talent WAS noticed. He was watched by our regional scouts and then offered a contract, given a tryout and kept on this team all by.....you guessed it, Rick Spielman. He could have then been cut at any time within those next few years with no penalty like many UDFA/fringe players and he wasnt. Any guess who made that decision? Rick Spielman.

Sorry but saying "pure luck brought us Adam Thielen" couldnt be more of a joke of a comment. That sounds like "I'm just being a Spielman hater" type comment to be honest. Because Spielman never had to offer him a contract, never had to give him a tryout, never had to cut someone else to keep him and never had to keep him on the roster for years following that. But he did. And that is exactly why Spielman 100% deserves a lot of credit for Adam Thielen.

So Rick knew what a talent Theilen was, but waited to pick him up until he was undrafted. ok, gotcha LOLOLOL

If he is going to take the blame for the bad moves then he should get a little credit when things go right. At least that's how I see it. No one ever answers me! Am I posting in the right place? What am I doing wrong?

[Pondering Her Percy]

So Rick knew what a talent Theilen was, but waited to pick him up until he was undrafted. ok, gotcha LOLOLOL

If he is going to take the blame for the bad moves then he should get a little credit when things go right. At least that's how I see it. No one ever answers me! Am I posting in the right place? What am I doing wrong?

Haha I’ve been answering Wally! This is somewhat of a slow time on the board. It will pick back up come draft time and when the season starts. But I agree. Some want to be quick with planting the bad moves on him but stray away from giving him credit for the good moves he’s made. Keeping Theilen is definitely one of them. Also, getting great value for Diggs. It’s not getting lucky, it’s scouting, signing and drafting right when it came to those guys. He doesn’t sign or draft them if he doesn’t see some kind of potential there. Granted he’s missed on some areas but he’s also the main reason we have the talent we do on this roster. Especially when it comes to drafting. Over 90% of our starters have been draft picks by him.

[StumpHunter]

So Rick knew what a talent Theilen was, but waited to pick him up until he was undrafted. ok, gotcha LOLOLOL

If he is going to take the blame for the bad moves then he should get a little credit when things go right. At least that's how I see it. No one ever answers me! Am I posting in the right place? What am I doing wrong?

He gets credit for Hunter, Griffen, Smith, Joseph, Barr, Kendricks and Rhodes. Those were all great picks and the guy clearly knows defense.

He doesn't get credit for a guy being from MN.

[Pondering Her Percy]

If he is going to take the blame for the bad moves then he should get a little credit when things go right. At least that's how I see it. No one ever answers me! Am I posting in the right place? What am I doing wrong?

He gets credit for Hunter, Griffen, Smith, Joseph, Barr, Kendricks and Rhodes. Those were all great picks and the guy clearly knows defense.

He doesn't get credit for a guy being from MN.

The regional combine that he worked out at and where the Vikings saw him, was in Chicago. It wasnt even in Minnesota. And they pushed for him from there. Carolina knew who Adam Thielen was and offered him a contract. How did they know who he was? It doesnt matter where he is from, Spielman never had to give him a contract or keep him for as long as he did. Nobody was holding a gun to his head. The reason he is here, is Rick Spielman, not because he's from here. Just because you're from Minnesota doesnt mean you get a free ticket on the roster. I'm guessing you arent understanding how these local workouts go but teams are allowed to have local workouts during the draft process for guys that might play for the Gophers, Mankato St, schools in the Dakota's, etc. We give plenty of guys workouts every year like that. But that was not where they saw Thielen. They saw him in Chicago and the scout that was there came back saying he flashed during the workout so Spielman dug deeper watching his tape and such and ended up offering him a contract after what he saw and what was reported to him. Why is this so hard to understand? Thielen could have been from anywhere, and be at that regional combine in Chicago and we still would have offered him a contract. We didnt offer it just because he was from Minnesota. And it wasnt a local workout where we saw him. Thielen being from Minnesota literally has nothing to do with anything. So I dont know why you keep trying to push that point

[StumpHunter]

He gets credit for Hunter, Griffen, Smith, Joseph, Barr, Kendricks and Rhodes. Those were all great picks and the guy clearly knows defense.

He doesn't get credit for a guy being from MN.

The regional combine that he worked out at and where the Vikings saw him, was in Chicago. It wasnt even in Minnesota. And they pushed for him from there. Carolina knew who Adam Thielen was and offered him a contract. How did they know who he was? It doesnt matter where he is from, Spielman never had to give him a contract or keep him for as long as he did. Nobody was holding a gun to his head. The reason he is here, is Rick Spielman, not because he's from here. Just because you're from Minnesota doesnt mean you get a free ticket on the roster. I'm guessing you arent understanding how these local workouts go but teams are allowed to have local workouts during the draft process for guys that might play for the Gophers, Mankato St, schools in the Dakota's, etc. We give plenty of guys workouts every year like that. But that was not where they saw Thielen. They saw him in Chicago and the scout that was there came back saying he flashed during the workout so Spielman dug deeper watching his tape and such and ended up offering him a contract after what he saw and what was reported to him. Why is this so hard to understand? Thielen could have been from anywhere, and be at that regional combine in Chicago and we still would have offered him a contract. We didnt offer it just because he was from Minnesota. And it wasnt a local workout where we saw him. Thielen being from Minnesota literally has nothing to do with anything. So I dont know why you keep trying to push that point

Nah, he is "just some random white receiver" that happened to be from MN, so Spielman offered him a chance to make the team.

The fact he was at the regional combine in Chicago is not evidence of anything. I am not sure why you think it is some kind of proof that Adam being a hometown kid wasn't the main reason he was brought in.

[Pondering Her Percy]

The regional combine that he worked out at and where the Vikings saw him, was in Chicago. It wasnt even in Minnesota. And they pushed for him from there. Carolina knew who Adam Thielen was and offered him a contract. How did they know who he was? It doesnt matter where he is from, Spielman never had to give him a contract or keep him for as long as he did. Nobody was holding a gun to his head. The reason he is here, is Rick Spielman, not because he's from here. Just because you're from Minnesota doesnt mean you get a free ticket on the roster. I'm guessing you arent understanding how these local workouts go but teams are allowed to have local workouts during the draft process for guys that might play for the Gophers, Mankato St, schools in the Dakota's, etc. We give plenty of guys workouts every year like that. But that was not where they saw Thielen. They saw him in Chicago and the scout that was there came back saying he flashed during the workout so Spielman dug deeper watching his tape and such and ended up offering him a contract after what he saw and what was reported to him. Why is this so hard to understand? Thielen could have been from anywhere, and be at that regional combine in Chicago and we still would have offered him a contract. We didnt offer it just because he was from Minnesota. And it wasnt a local workout where we saw him. Thielen being from Minnesota literally has nothing to do with anything. So I dont know why you keep trying to push that point

Nah, he is "just some random white receiver" that happened to be from MN, so Spielman offered him a chance to make the team.

The fact he was at the regional combine in Chicago is not evidence of anything. I am not sure why you think it is some kind of proof that Adam being a hometown kid wasn't the main reason he was brought in.

Because it's literally a fact that Chicago is where they saw him and where he stuck out to them!! You are literally completely ignoring facts and saying they are wrong and he was brought in just because he's a "hometown kid"?? I'm starting to believe that was your initial assumption and you've gone this far with it that there is no going back at this point. You're in complete denial. Are you really going to sit there and tell me that during the offseason that year and the following few years when he was on the team but not playing much, Spielman just kept him because he was from the area? I cant begin to tell you how asinine that sounds.

Rick Spielman, Vikings general manager: "Our pro scout, Ryan Monnens, came back and said this kid had a really good workout, we need to get him on the radar. So then we went ahead and talked about him in the draft process, so we were aware of him. But he truly came to light, to be honest with you, when he stuck out at the super regional.

"Mankato’s coaches just being honest and giving [our scouts] their assessment of him. He was good enough to probably be a college free agent. He came on to our radar significantly more, not from his college tape, but more when he popped up at that super regional."

Mike Priefer, Vikings special-teams coordinator: You could just tell by talking to him and being around him and watching him for that three-day minicamp that there was something there. Which is one of the reasons why we kept him. I know George was a big part of that, and I jumped on the table for Adam as well. I didn’t know he was going to be the player he is today on offense, but I was looking at him strictly as a special-teams player, selfishly. That’s my job."

"Spielman: When you saw him practice during that minicamp, just the natural instincts as a football player, knowing where to settle between zones when they’re running plays and knowing how to get open. He had a natural instinct for that, and he picked up the playbook like that [snaps fingers]."

Spielman:"There was no question once we came out of that rookie minicamp that we had to sign this guy."

"The kid that has kind of really jumped out to us so far is Adam Thielen," Spielman said, during the interview. "He has had a real good offseason so far, but we'll see more when we get down there to Mankato."

That last quote was literally during minicamp that year and Spielman was saying then that he was impressing them. It's not like he's just saying it now but wasnt back then. He made the team because he impressed the GM and the coaches. Plain and simple. The same reason he was offered a contract from the Vikings, because he impressed them at the regional combine in Chicago. Where he was from was NOT why they offered him a contract. They offered it to him because they were impressed with him. Literally anything and everything out there says this....except you. There is something not like the others right there. There isnt a single thing out there saying he was signed because he was from Minnesota. They have a million guys try out for them from the state of Minnesota and dont make the team. Last year, 3 Minnesota Gophers players were invited to our rookie camp last year for tryouts. Kunle Ayinde, Kobe McCrary and Merrick Jackson. One from Minnesota-Deluth (Zach Bassuener), one from Augustana in Sioux Falls (Sam Lee), one from South Dakota State (Kellen Soulek) and 3 from North Dakota St. (Austin Kuhnert, Landon Lechler and Nate Tanguay). Not ONE made the final 53 OR the practice squad. But Adam Thielen did when he was given his opportunity but you're going to say it was just because where he was from? What about those 9 guys I listed that were local this year? Clearly Thielen impressed otherwise he would've been cut. And please dont even bother going down the "luck" road. If you read any of the quotes above you would know that wasnt the case. Granted, nobody knew he would become this good. But it's not like he was just given a roster spot because he's local. He impressed from the start. And he earned his spot because he impressed the GM and coaches. And that is why he is currently on this team. Because our GM liked what he saw and gave him a contract. If Thielen wasnt impressing Spielman from day 1, then why would Spielman keep him? Guys that we keep from the state of Minnesota are guys that actually perform and contribute like Sherels, Ham, Thielen, etc. They dont just join the team because they are from Minnesota. Your argument is dead in the water man. Think all you want regarding this, but all you have is your own opinion because you have zero proof of it....anywhere. Rick Spielman 100% deserves credit for getting Adam Thielen on this roster. Period. I'm not sure how anyone else can get credit or anything anyways, Spielman is the only one that does that end of it. It's not like Zim or other guys go behind his back to sign guys. So how can Spielman not get credit? He can and he deserves it.

[WallytheVike]

Nah, he is "just some random white receiver" that happened to be from MN, so Spielman offered him a chance to make the team.

The fact he was at the regional combine in Chicago is not evidence of anything. I am not sure why you think it is some kind of proof that Adam being a hometown kid wasn't the main reason he was brought in.

Because it's literally a fact that Chicago is where they saw him and where he stuck out to them!! You are literally completely ignoring facts and saying they are wrong and he was brought in just because he's a "hometown kid"?? I'm starting to believe that was your initial assumption and you've gone this far with it that there is no going back at this point. You're in complete denial. Are you really going to sit there and tell me that during the offseason that year and the following few years when he was on the team but not playing much, Spielman just kept him because he was from the area? I cant begin to tell you how asinine that sounds.

Rick Spielman, Vikings general manager: "Our pro scout, Ryan Monnens, came back and said this kid had a really good workout, we need to get him on the radar. So then we went ahead and talked about him in the draft process, so we were aware of him. But he truly came to light, to be honest with you, when he stuck out at the super regional.

"Mankato’s coaches just being honest and giving [our scouts] their assessment of him. He was good enough to probably be a college free agent. He came on to our radar significantly more, not from his college tape, but more when he popped up at that super regional."

Mike Priefer, Vikings special-teams coordinator: You could just tell by talking to him and being around him and watching him for that three-day minicamp that there was something there. Which is one of the reasons why we kept him. I know George was a big part of that, and I jumped on the table for Adam as well. I didn’t know he was going to be the player he is today on offense, but I was looking at him strictly as a special-teams player, selfishly. That’s my job."

"Spielman: When you saw him practice during that minicamp, just the natural instincts as a football player, knowing where to settle between zones when they’re running plays and knowing how to get open. He had a natural instinct for that, and he picked up the playbook like that [snaps fingers]."

Spielman:"There was no question once we came out of that rookie minicamp that we had to sign this guy."

"The kid that has kind of really jumped out to us so far is Adam Thielen," Spielman said, during the interview. "He has had a real good offseason so far, but we'll see more when we get down there to Mankato."

That last quote was literally during minicamp that year and Spielman was saying then that he was impressing them. It's not like he's just saying it now but wasnt back then. He made the team because he impressed the GM and the coaches. Plain and simple. The same reason he was offered a contract from the Vikings, because he impressed them at the regional combine in Chicago. Where he was from was NOT why they offered him a contract. They offered it to him because they were impressed with him. Literally anything and everything out there says this....except you. There is something not like the others right there. There isnt a single thing out there saying he was signed because he was from Minnesota. They have a million guys try out for them from the state of Minnesota and dont make the team. Last year, 3 Minnesota Gophers players were invited to our rookie camp last year for tryouts. Kunle Ayinde, Kobe McCrary and Merrick Jackson. One from Minnesota-Deluth (Zach Bassuener), one from Augustana in Sioux Falls (Sam Lee), one from South Dakota State (Kellen Soulek) and 3 from North Dakota St. (Austin Kuhnert, Landon Lechler and Nate Tanguay). Not ONE made the final 53 OR the practice squad. But Adam Thielen did when he was given his opportunity but you're going to say it was just because where he was from? What about those 9 guys I listed that were local this year? Clearly Thielen impressed otherwise he would've been cut. And please dont even bother going down the "luck" road. If you read any of the quotes above you would know that wasnt the case. Granted, nobody knew he would become this good. But it's not like he was just given a roster spot because he's local. He impressed from the start. And he earned his spot because he impressed the GM and coaches. And that is why he is currently on this team. Because our GM liked what he saw and gave him a contract. If Thielen wasnt impressing Spielman from day 1, then why would Spielman keep him? Guys that we keep from the state of Minnesota are guys that actually perform and contribute like Sherels, Ham, Thielen, etc. They dont just join the team because they are from Minnesota. Your argument is dead in the water man. Think all you want regarding this, but all you have is your own opinion because you have zero proof of it....anywhere. Rick Spielman 100% deserves credit for getting Adam Thielen on this roster. Period. I'm not sure how anyone else can get credit or anything anyways, Spielman is the only one that does that end of it. It's not like Zim or other guys go behind his back to sign guys. So how can Spielman not get credit? He can and he deserves it.

I'm under the belief that if you're going to rip him for the bad ones you got to give him credit for the good ones.

[CharVike]

CharVike, terrible division or not, they coached up a group of mid round picks and UDFAs to become a competitive OL in a single season. One that held it's own against the likes of Suh and Donald in the SB. The cake division doesn't mean much once they get to the post season, at that point it is kill or be killed. If it was all about a cake division they would have been eaten by one of the other teams. That didn't happen.

The cake division helps tremendously. They are rested and are able to coach guys up and not have to worry about losing those games. They don't even need to use their entire scheme. If you think that means nothing then OK.