Zeitler trade

[Pondering Her Percy]

So when quality FAs are available to the Vikings, its a bad idea (great idea for the other teams that have won the SB over the past 10 years though). Why does everything have to be so dramatic? By paying a lot for FAs DOESNT mean you aernt building a team with the draft, BOTH work well to get the big prize. Just not QB FAs Rick like. Or WR's.

Ideally you do both. Paying over 10% of the cap to one player, limits your options though and it is a big reason so few QBs making that much of the cap have ever won a SB. It makes paying a RG 12 million per year a bad move. LT sure, but RG? I will take my chances in the draft.

I would take my chances on the draft too. And were there quality FA's out there that I'm missing??!! Ju'Wuan James was the SECOND highest paid free agency offensive lineman this year. Billy Turner was the SIXTH highest paid offensive lineman. Nick Easton, someone that didnt play all of 2018 and coming off neck surgery was the SEVENTH highest paid offensive lineman. The last thing that was out there was quality offensive lineman. Way too often do I see fans flip over Spielman not signing any offensive lineman but they are the first ones that dont have a clue who is out there for us to even sign. You should see social media, that's the worst of it.

[YikesVikes]

For those who think the Vikings didn't make a play for Kevin Zeitler ...

Report: Vikings attempted to trade Everson Griffen to the Browns

Heading into the 2019 offseason, there were some who believed that Everson Griffen had already played his last snap in a Minnesota Vikings uniform.

Griffen had a large cap hit for 2019 looming and he was coming off of one of the least productive seasons of his NFL career. So the defensive end playing elsewhere in 2019 began to actually seem like a legit possibility.

According to the Star Tribune’s Andrew Krammer on Wednesday, the Vikings wanted to acquire Browns offensive guard Kevin Zeitler and Minnesota was using Griffen as part of the trade package they were offering.

Cleveland eventually decided to send Zeitler packing, but not to the Vikings. Instead, the Browns traded the offensive guard and a 2019 fifth-round draft pick to the New York Giants in exchange for pass rusher Olivier Vernon and a 2019 fourth-round selection.

Vernon is three years younger than Griffen and this likely played a big part in Cleveland not taking Minnesota up on whatever they were offering for Zeitler.

More at the link.

I was wrong obviously by the information I had. The snarkiness I could do without though, unless you knew they made a move

[YikesVikes]

I actually came to post this and to say, I won't criticize Rick for his potential handling on the Oline so far this offseason. I will even take it easy on him depending on what happens in the draft (barring us not drafting an OL, then I will go ham). I am satisfied that we have tried to fix the line so far. No complaints on Kline signing either. Good Job Rick given the cap (minus Rudolph still here with that salary)

[YikesVikes]

First off, I was exaggerating. Secondly, Rick paid (well the Wilfs did) Kirk friggin Cousins 28 billion last year for 8 wins, and the Viking seriously regressed. Hes the reason we cant ply players that are worth more what they need to play here. And obviously I know thats your opinion, I didnt think you have someone else writing your posts, doh. Sometimes playing a player a lot is worth it. Just because Rick has NO idea of a players worth doesnt mean thats not true.

I put IMO, because to often people take opinions as if you think they are facts.

Cousins contract is the biggest reason you can't make this trade. He is a sunk cost at this point, and the Vikings need to start looking to build through the draft and avoid overpaying for FAs or trades for overpaid players at positions that can be found later in the draft.

So we can pay Barr 13 million, Rhodes 10 million, Hunter 10 million, Kendricks 8 million or so but..... possibly the best RG in the game (PFF rating or not) we can't pay well. This message board is funny. I also saw you ask what has a good OLine net the Steelers? How about making the playoffs 6 our of 8 years, including last year when both their biggest weapons were out. Imagine the Vikes record with both Diggs and Theilan out. What, 4 wins?

[YikesVikes]

I put IMO, because to often people take opinions as if you think they are facts.

Cousins contract is the biggest reason you can't make this trade. He is a sunk cost at this point, and the Vikings need to start looking to build through the draft and avoid overpaying for FAs or trades for overpaid players at positions that can be found later in the draft.

So when quality FAs are available to the Vikings, its a bad idea (great idea for the other teams that have won the SB over the past 10 years though). Why does everything have to be so dramatic? By paying a lot for FAs DOESNT mean you aernt building a team with the draft, BOTH work well to get the big prize. Just not QB FAs Rick like. Or WR's.

Packers are a prime example of what happens when a team refuses to fill via FA. From 2010 to 2015 they should have won 2 more chips. It's a balance. The draft is extremely important but FA is important, losing FAs and balancing comp picks vs. signings can sink or make a championship caliber team.

[YikesVikes]

Paying over 10% of the cap to one player, limits your options though and it is a big reason so few QBs making that much of the cap have ever won a SB. It makes paying a RG 12 million per year a bad move. LT sure, but RG? I will take my chances in the draft.

14 QBs made over 20 million last season. Cousin's 24.
Also, 7 out of the 14 top QBs have been to or won at least one super bowl.
Those seem like great odds to me.

[StumpHunter]

I put IMO, because to often people take opinions as if you think they are facts.

Cousins contract is the biggest reason you can't make this trade. He is a sunk cost at this point, and the Vikings need to start looking to build through the draft and avoid overpaying for FAs or trades for overpaid players at positions that can be found later in the draft.

So we can pay Barr 13 million, Rhodes 10 million, Hunter 10 million, Kendricks 8 million or so but..... possibly the best RG in the game (PFF rating or not) we can't pay well. This message board is funny. I also saw you ask what has a good OLine net the Steelers? How about making the playoffs 6 our of 8 years, including last year when both their biggest weapons were out. Imagine the Vikes record with both Diggs and Theilan out. What, 4 wins?

I don't remember asking what a good Oline netted the Steelers. I mean, it didn't win them anything this season, but most years a good offensive line makes your, QB, WRs, and run game better.

RG is important, but it does not have the value that #1 CB, MLB, OLB or DE have.

[StumpHunter]

Paying over 10% of the cap to one player, limits your options though and it is a big reason so few QBs making that much of the cap have ever won a SB. It makes paying a RG 12 million per year a bad move. LT sure, but RG? I will take my chances in the draft.

14 QBs made over 20 million last season. Cousin's 24.
Also, 7 out of the 14 top QBs have been to or won at least one super bowl.
Those seem like great odds to me.

Neat. Do you have any numbers that contradict what I said?

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/02/nfl-qu ... ree-agency

So if great QBs demand a ton of money, and if having a great QB makes winning the SB easier, you would expect the majority of QBs who have won a SB to be making over 10% of the cap, instead they are the vast minority. Why do you think that is?

[YikesVikes]

These guys aren throwing around a lot of numbers but I have yet to see them mention two important points.
1. Some of the QBs that they are pointing to as the smart choices to take are on Rookie deals. Teams have invested heavily into these guys in draft capital. You want to invest a 3rd, a 4th, and a future 3rd move up one spot?

2. The NFL cap is 188.2 million. 10% of that is 18.82 million. Lets say 19 to be even. Lets count the QBs that are making 19 million.
Matt Stafford Lions $29,500,000
Kirk Cousins Vikings $29,000,000
Andrew Luck Colts $27,525,000
Tom Brady Patriots $27,000,000
Aaron Rodgers Packers $26,500,000
Russell Wilson Sea $25,286,7660
Eli Manning Giants $23,200,000
Cam Newton Panthers $23,200,000
Ben Roeth Steelers $23,200,000
Philip Rivers Chargers $23,000,000
Drew Brees Saints $22,700,000
Derek Carr Raiders $22,500,000
Jameis W. Buc $20,922,000
Marcus M. Titans $20,922,000
Alex Smith Redskins $20,400,000
Jimmy G. 49ers $19,350,000

As you can see 16 Qbs are making atleast 19 million. There are 6 more guys that are expected to break this 19 million barrier by next season (Goff, Wentz,Trubisky, Watson, Dax, Bridgewater). Including these 6 the remaining QBs below 19 million.....
*2 have won a superbowl. Foles and Flacco.
*3 have made made the Superbowl. Ryan Foles Flacco

I have even included guys that locked into Rookie contracts and their teams have no choice but to pay them scraps to play.
Lastly, the salary per year is a silly stat to look at. Teams struture contracts to give them cap flexibility depending on when they need it. Jimmy G makes 19 this season but made 37 last year. Carr made 25 in 2018 but 22.5 this season. Either way you want to look at it. The guys that are winning rings and making playoffs are above the 10% range of the salary cap. Teams that have been able to cheat the system and are competative (Seattle and Dallas) are doing so by lucking into a 2nd or 3rd rounder that turn out to be a stud and riding them for 4 years of cheap cap hits. Those same teams must then turn around and pay those guys top dollar too. Pay now, Pay later. Either way, you're going to be paying.

[J. Kapp 11]

For those who think the Vikings didn't make a play for Kevin Zeitler ...



More at the link.

I was wrong obviously by the information I had. The snarkiness I could do without though, unless you knew they made a move

Snarkiness? What?

And no, I didn't know they tried to make the move. I also didn't assume the opposite. That's not snarky. It's just a fact.

[J. Kapp 11]

Great post Kapp. I also wonder how much the incident for Griffin caused by the mental issues came into play in the decision. I'm sure quite a bit. A risk/worth situation to Browns mngt I'm sure, and also as u said adding the the fact that Vernon is 3 yrs younger, really probably a very easy decision for the Browns.

Everybody said Speilman didn't try. I posted before this post that maybe he did. Who knows if this report is true? These published reports about how good or bad an OL is are bogus. PFF has no idea. They don't know the line call so there is no way to make a judgment. Supposedly the Steelers are near the top of OL play. Plus they have a HOF QB. Were did that great OL take them. I think it's a sive. One thing I will say about our OL is they are about the best in the business at run blocking. Even with a rookie who was weak, supposedly, at RT. Cook average nearly 5 yards a pop. But PFF thinks our OL is pitiful. Unless Cook is the next Walter Payton type of back which I doubt. Our problem was we did run at all. Bang the ball all day long.

Who knows if this report is true? I'd say it's far more likely to be true than any assumption that it's not.

This article attributes the information to the Star Tribune, which probably has much better information than anybody on this board. At least one would hope, since it's their job to cover the Vikings.

[YikesVikes]

I was wrong obviously by the information I had. The snarkiness I could do without though, unless you knew they made a move

Snarkiness? What?

And no, I didn't know they tried to make the move. I also didn't assume the opposite. That's not snarky. It's just a fact.

Cool

[StumpHunter]

These guys aren throwing around a lot of numbers but I have yet to see them mention two important points.
1. Some of the QBs that they are pointing to as the smart choices to take are on Rookie deals. Teams have invested heavily into these guys in draft capital. You want to invest a 3rd, a 4th, and a future 3rd move up one spot?

2. The NFL cap is 188.2 million. 10% of that is 18.82 million. Lets say 19 to be even. Lets count the QBs that are making 19 million.
Matt Stafford Lions $29,500,000
Kirk Cousins Vikings $29,000,000
Andrew Luck Colts $27,525,000
Tom Brady Patriots $27,000,000
Aaron Rodgers Packers $26,500,000
Russell Wilson Sea $25,286,7660
Eli Manning Giants $23,200,000
Cam Newton Panthers $23,200,000
Ben Roeth Steelers $23,200,000
Philip Rivers Chargers $23,000,000
Drew Brees Saints $22,700,000
Derek Carr Raiders $22,500,000
Jameis W. Buc $20,922,000
Marcus M. Titans $20,922,000
Alex Smith Redskins $20,400,000
Jimmy G. 49ers $19,350,000

As you can see 16 Qbs are making atleast 19 million. There are 6 more guys that are expected to break this 19 million barrier by next season (Goff, Wentz,Trubisky, Watson, Dax, Bridgewater). Including these 6 the remaining QBs below 19 million.....
*2 have won a superbowl. Foles and Flacco.
*3 have made made the Superbowl. Ryan Foles Flacco

I have even included guys that locked into Rookie contracts and their teams have no choice but to pay them scraps to play.
Lastly, the salary per year is a silly stat to look at. Teams struture contracts to give them cap flexibility depending on when they need it. Jimmy G makes 19 this season but made 37 last year. Carr made 25 in 2018 but 22.5 this season. Either way you want to look at it. The guys that are winning rings and making playoffs are above the 10% range of the salary cap. Teams that have been able to cheat the system and are competative (Seattle and Dallas) are doing so by lucking into a 2nd or 3rd rounder that turn out to be a stud and riding them for 4 years of cheap cap hits. Those same teams must then turn around and pay those guys top dollar too. Pay now, Pay later. Either way, you're going to be paying.

I am not going to disagree that you eventually have to pay a really good QB a lot of money if you want to keep them. The point I was making, and what the article was making, is that it is significantly easier to win with QBs on their rookie contracts than when they make their big second contract. That shouldn't be the case, since QBs tend to get better as they hit their 30's, unless their contracts were impeding the team's ability to sign key players.

That doesn't mean when Aaron Rodgers hits his 6th season you let him walk and don't pay him whatever he wants. You can build a team around Rodgers that can win it all and still pay him 10+ of the cap. It does mean that when Matt Stafford hits his sixth season, you move on and don't pay the guy like he can win you football games without a ton of talent around him.

[Pondering Her Percy]

For those who think the Vikings didn't make a play for Kevin Zeitler ...



More at the link.

Wow just saw this. I was ticked that Spielman didnt try and trade for Zeitler but I guess he did. Typical Browns move though. Pass on Griffen (even though he had some mental issues going on) for that gigantic FA bust Vernon. The guy is completely invisible vs the run and a one trick pony. In the heart of his career, Brian Robison was averaging 7-9 sacks per year. That's what Vernon is doing. He's a good pass rusher but not a great one, but that's about it. Vernon has broke 8 or more sacks 2 times in 7 years (one year was only 8.5). Griffen has done it 5 times in 9 years. Probably would have been 6 if he played all year this year. Damn thats annoying. I would have been all for that deal. The giants raped the Browns in that trade.

[fiestavike]

For those who think the Vikings didn't make a play for Kevin Zeitler ...



More at the link.

Wow just saw this. I was ticked that Spielman didnt try and trade for Zeitler but I guess he did. Typical Browns move though. Pass on Griffen (even though he had some mental issues going on) for that gigantic FA bust Vernon. The guy is completely invisible vs the run and a one trick pony. In the heart of his career, Brian Robison was averaging 7-9 sacks per year. That's what Vernon is doing. He's a good pass rusher but not a great one, but that's about it. Vernon has broke 8 or more sacks 2 times in 7 years (one year was only 8.5). Griffen has done it 5 times in 9 years. Probably would have been 6 if he played all year this year. Damn thats annoying. I would have been all for that deal. The giants raped the Browns in that trade.

The browns have done a very poor job. They went into total rebuild mode and really had a chance to build something special, but Dorsey has screwed the pooch in pursuit of immediate upgrades.